Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time

[wigglestrue]

guys when the Celtics played a team with a great scorer such as Dominique McHale guarded him. Bird like other superstars in that era were hidden on the person that didn't score. In Atlanta's case that was tree Rollins. The all defensive rankings was a joke based on an overvaluing of steals.

That's not even superficial second-level thinking, dude.
That's, like, one-and-a-half level.

Since when was forcing a turnover not an extremely valuable thing?
Matter of fact, as stats go, a steal is more valuable than a block, no?

It's not like Bird was some reckless stat-padding lane-gambler.
When not picking off the ball, dude played fundamentally-sound D with max effort.
Could he guard the best, one-on-one? Not really, lol. No. But who can? Did he need to?

Anyway, explain the presence of so many other defensive greats in the yearly DWS Top 2.
Were they also just the product of rebounding, or of overvaluing steals?
Were they hidden on non-factors, lol?

[wigglestrue]

Is it really fair to include Lebron's as a 22yo on one of the worst Finals teams ever?

He massively overachieved that year, and the fact that he brought his team to the Finals shouldn't count against him just coz he was the only one worth a damn on that squad.

It's why those "Lebron already lost two Finals while Jordan is 6-0" things don't hold too much weight.

It was LeBron's fourth year. Bird won a title in his second year, and his '81 teammates were not that much more productive than LeBron's '07 teammates.

Parish alone was 2x better than any teammate Lebron had in 07. Bird's team was stacked. The Cav's 2nd best player was an aging Zydrunas, their 3rd best player was Drew Gooden....

What did the respective four teammates average, per 36?

[JordansBulls]

Really, tsherkin? So, we have to wait until, what, LeBron's fifth or sixth season to begin comparing him to Bird's rookie season? Come on. Also, let's not get too crazy about '81 Bird's supporting cast versus '07 LeBron's. Gooden, Hughes, Ilgauskas, and a young Varejao isn't too bad, not soooo much worse production-wise than Cornbread, aged Tiny, Parish, and a young McHale.

This. The 3 years Bird was in college he played as many minutes as Lebron did as a rookie. So maybe you could use year 2 Lebron to Year 1 Bird for an adecuate comparison. 1 year of NBA experience is a hell of lot more than 3-4 years of college.

[wigglestrue]

I've matured to the point where I can recognize a good argument when I see it, and so for example despite Reggie Miller being mediocre on the court except for scoring, I can recognize that it's possible for someone who only scores well or only defends well to make as much as if not more of an impact than a well-balanced player. I wouldn't let Reggie sniff my Top 50, but he might have crept into my Top 60 or 70, thanks to this board helping me to appreciate the value of a one-dimensional skill, if that skill is world-class. In the same way, what if Larry Bird is underrated as a defender because people expect a great defender to be BOTH a good individual defender and good team defender, what if Larry was actually so awesome as a team defender (including rebounds) that he deserves to be seen as (gulp) a Great Defender, despite being an average one-on-one defender?

[Okada]

Based on the eye test, Larry was never a good man defender, I think we can all agree on that. But those Celts teams would hide him on a poor player and let him roam like hell. He turned into essentially a safety on that defense, made a ton of plays, made the smart move almost every time, created a ton of turnovers and generally played excellent D even though he wasn't a lockdown man-on-man guy. He deserves a lot of credit for that even though he doesn't fit our idea of a good defender. I think you could be right wiggles.

[wigglestrue]

Seems a fellow Celtics homer has compiled some Bird defensive highlights. (Try to forgive the dude his obnoxious prologue.) I know highlight reels are inherently flattering, but that's a pretty eye-opening eye test, no? Hell, he might be one of the most creative ballhawks in league history, lol. Just like his passing compilations, some of the stuff he does here makes you literally lol, at how ingenious and spontaneous his instincts were, at how silly he makes opponents look sometimes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Ixy8Uttq0

p.s. I attended Bird's last home game ever. It happened to be my first Celtics game ever, too, and I went alone, just me, 14 years old, in the nosebleeds. Game 6 in 92 versus the Cavs, and the one play of his that made me most delirious with joy that night was a nasty block. I vaguely remember shrieking "Get that **** outta here!", lol. It was his last great game, a Rondo-like stat line.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 50BOS.html

[wigglestrue]

So if Bird should actually be counted among, say, the Top 25-50 defenders ever...as implausible as that has always seemed, then that would have profound implications for all-time comparisons, wouldn't it? Hmmm, actually, he's currently in a 15-way for 50th on the list of most times named to an All-Defensive Team, lol. So, let's set the bar for this potential paradigm shift higher:

In the event that Larry Bird were one of the Top 25 defenders in NBA history, how would that change your assessment of him overall, how might that alter your rankings?

[wigglestrue]

It's probably also instructive to remind ourselves who it was that beat out Larry for 1st team honors those three seasons he was named to the 2nd team, and who were his 2nd team peers those years.

1984
1st Team: Maurice Cheeks, Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, Sidney Moncrief, Tree Rollins
2nd Team: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, T.R. Dunn, Dennis Johnson, Dan Roundfield

1983
1st Team: Maurice Cheeks/Dennis Johnson, Bobby Jones, Moses, Sidney Moncrief, Dan Roundfield
2nd Team: Larry Bird, Michael Cooper, T.R. Dunn, Kevin McHale, Tree Rollins

1982
1st Team: Michael Cooper, Dennis Johnson, Bobby Jones, Caldwell Jones, Dan Roundfield
2nd Team: Larry Bird, Quinn Buckner, Sidney Moncrief, Lonnie Shelton, Jack Sikma

Those voters saw him, saw Bird play one-on-one defense, saw Bird get "hidden" like a free safety, and still thought he was nearly as valuable defensively as the likes of Bobby Jones, Sidney Moncrief, Michael Cooper. And those voters did not have at their disposal advanced stats like Defensive Rating or Defensive Win Shares. And they might've still underrated Bird by naming him to only three 2nd teams, as opposed to four or five 2nd teams, maybe even a 1st team or two

[colts18]

There is no way that Larry Bird could play SF in today's NBA.

[lorak]

There is no way that Larry Bird could play SF in today's NBA.

Yeah... too slow for SF, too weak for PF - he heard that whole career

[HeartBreakKid]

There is no way that Larry Bird could play SF in today's NBA.

Yeah, Bird only had to compete against second rate SFs like Dr.J, Wilkins, King, English, Worthy & Gervin in an era where everyone played man to man.

[colts18]

There is no way that Larry Bird could play SF in today's NBA.

Yeah... too slow for SF, too weak for PF - he heard that whole career

Bird would be fine at PF these days. If Ryan Anderson can play the 4, Bird can do it. He would be a huge offensive mismatch at the 4.

[colts18]

Yeah, Bird only had to compete against second rate SFs like Dr.J, Wilkins, King, English, Worthy & Gervin in an era where everyone played man to man.

And Bird didn't guard any one of those guys.

[HeartBreakKid]

Yeah, Bird only had to compete against second rate SFs like Dr.J, Wilkins, King, English, Worthy & Gervin in an era where everyone played man to man.

And Bird didn't guard any one of those guys.

And yet they did fine?

[tsherkin]

It's be daft to suggest Bird would be worse off in this era.

His off-ball and post action translate to any era, particularly with his range and threat to pass. He'd likely guard 4s on D, as he mostly did in his own era. Nothing wrong with that.

[colts18]

It's be daft to suggest Bird would be worse off in this era.

His off-ball and post action translate to any era, particularly with his range and threat to pass. He'd likely guard 4s on D, as he mostly did in his own era. Nothing wrong with that.

Bird would be fine in this era because of the emphasis on spacing and 3 point shooting. Plus defenses these days lend to Bird's strength (off ball defense). He would have trouble in the mid 90's-2004 because he would be exposed in the iso heavy era where he can't hide.

[tsherkin]

I doubt he'd have trouble then... There weren't a ton of individual defenders or rim protectors who could handle him.

TBH, his off-ball game made life miserable for most non-ultra defenders anyway and the 2000s were filled with a lot of crap teams early on. He'd have been fine. Certain teams would present matchup issues, but that is alwas true for almost any player.

[Grandpa Waiters]

There is no way that Larry Bird could play SF in today's NBA.

Yeah, Bird only had to compete against second rate SFs like Dr.J, Wilkins, King, English, Worthy & Gervin in an era where everyone played man to man. [/

[Grandpa Waiters]

There is no way that Larry Bird could play SF in today's NBA.

ROTFL. Bird couldn't play today? Watch some tape of a late 80's or early '90's Bird (who was past his peak) but still scoring buckets on Scottie Pippen, who's arguably the GOAT perimeter defender ever. Whenever people dump on Bird I wonder if there's a hint of racism involved. Whenever posters claim that certain players from the '80's couldn't hack it today they never mention black players, just players like Bird, McHale, Kiki Vandeweghe etc. Let's face it, if Steve Nash played in the '80's posters would be claiming he'd get murdered today. Racism.

[MacGill]

There is no way that Larry Bird could play SF in today's NBA.

Yeah, Bird only had to compete against second rate SFs like Dr.J, Wilkins, King, English, Worthy & Gervin in an era where everyone played man to man.

ROTFL. Bird couldn't play today? Watch some tape of a late 80's or early '90's Bird (who was past his peak) but still scoring buckets on Scottie Pippen, who's arguably the GOAT perimeter defender ever. Whenever people dump on Bird I wonder if there's a hint of racism involved. Whenever posters claim that certain players from the '80's couldn't hack it today they never mention black players, just players like Bird, McHale, Kiki Vandeweghe etc. Let's face it, if Steve Nash played in the '80's posters would be claiming he'd get murdered today. Racism.

A little too far, no?

Why not just ask him to further expound on his point. Larry is a top 10 player....the comment was more around position not that he couldn't play altogether.