ATFL Eastern: (2) Narigo vs. (7) MisterHibachi

[therealbig3]

I'm afraid you guys voted for Narigo's team even before he gave his gameplan just because of two words: Michael Jordan. A bit disappointing, if you ask me...

I mean not really, I just think most voters had an idea of how they felt the matchups would break down and what the most common sense approach was to utilizing all the players' talents. Like someone else said, unless Narigo royally screwed it up with his coaching (and it doesn't look like he has), we all had a pretty good idea of what kind of strategy you'd implement with the personnel he had.

[Quotatious]

I mean not really, I just think most voters had an idea of how they felt the matchups would break down and what the most common sense approach was to utilizing all the players' talents. Like someone else said, unless Narigo royally screwed it up with his coaching (and it doesn't look like he has), we all had a pretty good idea of what kind of strategy you'd implement with the personnel he had.

Yeah, I understand, I'm probably guilty of the same, but it was pretty weird seeing how no one even seemed to take notice that Narigo didn't even post his strategy, yet you guys already voted for him.

[bastillon]

I think it's just about matchups in this case. small ball doesn't really work here. you can't go small vs LMA. besides, both Marques and Jordan have very favorable matchups that would let them have the best impact they can have. on top of it you have a defense anchored by Moses who is a bad defender. plus it doesn't help that Hibachi made some coaching errors.

[Doctor MJ]

I feel I'm beating myself here. Narigo hasn't even posted his strategy yet and he's already got 4 votes. That or Jordan is simply unbeatable.

Okay, I didn't mean to do that, let me just explain what happened:

In the first matchups I held off on voting because I wanted to think more, and when I came back, the matches were over. So this time I felt like I needed to act as soon I started seeing other people's votes. I came in to the matchups seeing Narigo as the favorite, and was not persuaded to change my mind by you from what i'd seen so far, so I went with his team.

In my head I thought I'd already read his take and that it had seemed neutral to me - which since he was the favorite was enough. I'm going to read his take now though, and while odds are unlikely that I'll change my mind, I might.

To be clear: You did not beat yourself. Jordan isn't unbeatable, but he's tough, and this relates to what I said about not knowing what you would have needed to say to convince me. Maybe there was a way to do it, maybe there wasn't.

[O_6]

Marques Johnson's 1982 season does not qualify as he only played 60 games, and 62 games out of 82 games are required according to the rules of the league.

So instead of 80-82 Johnson (20.9 PER -- .580 TS%), Narigo would have to choose 83-85 Johnson (18.4 PER -- .524 TS%). 83-85 Johnson was still a very good player but he was a little less athletic and valuable than he was in his true peak of 80-82.

Marques Johnson is the key player in this matchup imo. We know what Jordan can do and we know that the fit around Jordan for Narigo's team seems very good. But Marques Johnson was selected in the 2nd round to be an all-around skilled 2 way SF who could help Jordan much like Pippen did. I think his 80-82 version is similar level player to Pippen, I think I'd still take Pippen's 94-96 over him because Pippen was a better perimeter defender and 3 point shooter than 80-82 Johnson. As a best player on a team, it's really tough to choose between these 2 versions of Johnson and Pippen. As a wing partner to pair next to Jordan in 2014? I feel like the answer to that is Pippen.

And that's 80-82 Johnson. 83-85 is a lesser version of Marques Johnson, and we need to figure out which version we get for this tournament. I do think I would give Narigo the benefit of a doubt because he made this selection at the end of the 2nd round, and I remember there being some confusion about the yearly eligibility rules for this contest. Since Narigo picked him early on when there may have been some confusion, I would allow him to use 80-82 Johnson. But that's only my opinion, especially since he only missed the cut by 2 games. He didn't meet the requirement and a decision needs to be made.

Marques Johnson's 1980-82 eligibility needs to be confirmed imo

[MisterHibachi]

Narigo, you gotta clarify M.Johnson's years.

[MisterHibachi]

I feel I'm beating myself here. Narigo hasn't even posted his strategy yet and he's already got 4 votes. That or Jordan is simply unbeatable.

Okay, I didn't mean to do that, let me just explain what happened:

In the first matchups I held off on voting because I wanted to think more, and when I came back, the matches were over. So this time I felt like I needed to act as soon I started seeing other people's votes. I came in to the matchups seeing Narigo as the favorite, and was not persuaded to change my mind by you from what i'd seen so far, so I went with his team.

In my head I thought I'd already read his take and that it had seemed neutral to me - which since he was the favorite was enough. I'm going to read his take now though, and while odds are unlikely that I'll change my mind, I might.

To be clear: You did not beat yourself. Jordan isn't unbeatable, but he's tough, and this relates to what I said about not knowing what you would have needed to say to convince me. Maybe there was a way to do it, maybe there wasn't.

I understand. I just got the impression from comments that I had the team to beat him, but didn't execute a proper game plan; and that's on me, no doubt. I got the impression because pretty much everyone mentioned that my perimeter defense was strong, but my coaching decisions were suspect. So that's why I said I feel like I'm beating myself.

Btw, I'm not sure if I responded to your Deron off-ball comment. I drafted him to play that role, even there were other players who could play a similar role (Mike Conley) is because I suspected that many teams would trap Wade on the pick and roll and it gave me an elite creator who could take advantage of a 4 on 3 situation on such plays; he's better than Conley at creating/passing. Him and Melo give me similar advantages, great spot up guys who could drive/create if run off the 3pt line (if I face a team athletic enough to prevent a Wade drive while also recovering to shooters).

[penbeast0]

I have seen even an excellent poster like O_6 make a comment that Marion can guard 1-5. that is easily your worst post on realGM. I love reading your posts but this one is just false.

Ha well thanks for that compliment atleast.

I agree that Marion's true strength on D was his ability to guard perimeter players. The fact that he's a legit defensive option against Michael friggin' Jordan is all you need to know about how good he was as a perimeter defender. And I agree that Marion wasn't a stud low post defender, guarding guys like Duncan or Garnett was not his strength. As a pure Big defender, I would grade him as nothing special.

But I think you underrate his post defense when you talk about how the Suns D couldn't stop anybody inside. Amare Stoudemire, Boris Diaw, and Tim Thomas. Those guys are not exactly strong post defenders to put it lightly, and they all played significant minutes for the Suns in a frontcourt position. An old Kurt Thomas may have been the best low post defender Marion played with on the Suns. Marion may have been nothing special as a low post defender but I don't think he was awful either.

Plus, I didn't say he was an All-NBA caliber defender 1-5. I said he was capable of guarding 1-5. I stand by that claim of versatility, even if he was clearly better guarding 1-3 than 4-5.

I know for a fact that Shawn Marion has guarded Chris Paul and he has guarded Yao Ming. There aren't many players in NBA history who are capable doing that, Rodman is the only obvious one. That's all I meant with the 1-5 comment. He's actually done it. Putting him on a Center would be foolish but he just brings a lot of versatility to the table on D.

Marion's issue is that he was a slightly undersized player at SF, at PF he was extremely undersized but got by on spectacular athleticism and hard work, at C he's toast. Oddly enough, Bobby Jones who didn't get mentioned is a much better choice to compete with Rodman as a great 1-5 defender. He was 6-9 with enough leaping ability that his college nickname was "The Kangaroo Kid" (after former UNC great Billy Cunningham), he was quicker afoot though not as strong as Dennis Rodman and more of a cerebral defender. He spent several years in Denver guarding a lot of centers (since Mike Green and Dan Issel were both weak defenders), then guarded 3s and 4s in Philly where he was frequently used to guard 2s as Toney was regularly injured and he and Dr. J were sometimes used together on the wing. He couldn't guard the jets (nor could Rodman) but a big PG like Deron Williams, he'd be solid if not spectacular like a Scottie Pippen.

[MisterHibachi]

bastillon: Narigo
TMACFORMVP
penbeast0
ronnymac2
Doctor MJ: Narigo
SideshowBob
Texas Chuck: Narigo
therealbig3: Narigo

[penbeast0]

Good matchup. I was waiting to see all the writeups (and haven't had any time to speak of during the week). I was convinced by both, after reading them I was like . . . yeah, that makes sense. I will say that the younger Marques Johnson is better than Carmelo, the older Marques isn't so that makes a difference.

I don't like Scott at PG at all, when he played point in NJ the offense was pretty stagnant; he didn't play it much in LA, Cooper did. MJ had his best years off ball with Scottie, BJ and Ron Harper handling more. I also see a problem with all the defenders off the bench although I think Bobby Jones was a pretty good offensive player, he wasn't a shot creator nor really is anyone else coming off the bench in rotation. On the other hand, Jordan was an ironman and didn't need a lot of rest.

In terms of Mr. Hibachi's defense (his offense is going to be dynamic and flexible), Moses usually had a shot blocking C/F next to him like Billy Paultz, Clemon Johnson, etc. but was effective with athletic small ball lineups using Rudy T, Bill Willoughby, or Bobby Jones as well. Still, Moses isn't a great rim protector and while no one had much luck beating MJ in the triangle, it's reasonable to assume that would start with a quick rim protector.

So . . . (will finish later)

Big Man play -- Moses is clearly the strongest big man here, both physically and in terms of impact. Sikma is a fine player and his offensive skill set (outside shooting and passing) will give Moses difficulty but Moses will give Sikma a lot more trouble. And Wallace gives Moses no trouble at all. Unlike most, I don't see Aldridge dominating Marion. I'd give Marion the edge because while Aldridge can post him, he isn't quick enough to hang with Marion who is a great off ball player and, at this point in his career, a decent if not outstanding 3 point shooter. Clear Edge MH.

1-3 Play -- Jordan is better than Wade, particularly head to head both ways. A healthy Wade is a decent matchup though, Marques and Carmelo should be pretty even but the different ways they are being used may change that. Marques will be attacking Carmelo while Carmelo is supposed to back off and be a spot up shooter. This gives Marques a clear mental edge and plays more to his strengths than Carmelo's role does to his. On the other hand, Deron owns Byron Scott here who is outgunned and outmatched in a role that isn't particularly suited to his game either. Clear edge Narigo.

Bench -- Bobby Jones may be the best big man on Narigo but is being used only in limited minutes and only at PF apparently. Ibaka is sort of Jones light and will be solid and Eaton in this matchup won't be that big a deal either . . . if he goes against Wallace as planned, both will be useless offensively and free to roam defensively which gives an advantage to the team with the best mid and outside game which is MH by a little. The other reserves are interesting. If they are playing together, MH's reserves are more explosive and versatile while Narigo went almost solely for defenders who don't create a lot for themselves or others. However, if Narigo keeps at least 2 of his scoring trio of Jordan, Marques, and LaMarcus in the game at all times and Jordan plays his normal 40 or so, his reserve crew's superior defense should be more valuable than MH's extra scorers on a team loaded with scoring. Slight edge Narigo.

Intangibles and fit -- If Narigo has Phil Jackson and the triangle, I think he wins this easily but almost any other more conventional coach will have more trouble. Jordan before Phil had a tendency to play too much hero ball while everyone else sort of stood around a lot or, if they were scorers like Woolridge or Theus, got selfish themselves to make sure they got theirs. With Scott running the point (or not running it), this will be a real problem. I've been one of the great Marques Johnson supporters here for years but he had an ego (see the post about who was the first "point forward") and Sikma and Aldridge have both had periods where they tended to go passive. MH has a more dynamic flow and fit with multiple point sources and players whose strengths play well together. Clear Edge MH

Very interesting matchup, best player or best team fit. It's almost a coin flip, but JordansBulls has assured us that MJ just wasn't that special without HCA and I think Moses is the unanswered factor here. Mister Hibachi in 7.

[Narigo]

Narigo, you gotta clarify M.Johnson's years.

The rules werent very clear when I pick Marques Johnson


I made my pick here
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1294562&start=60


The rules was changed in the draft thread around the same time I made my selection.

I made a mistake in the draft thread. The criteria established in this thread was 75% each season. Because if its 75% over 3 seasons, a player could play 82, 82, then 21 the 3rd season. 21 games in a season isn't really anything worth including.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1293300&start=300

[MisterHibachi]

Alright, Marques is fine.

[NoRoleModel]

It almost seems like many posters are giving Jordan teams a presumption of superiority. I don't like Scott at the point at all. He wasn't a great initiator at all. He was typically a spot up shooter, albeit a good one. I don't like Jordan as the primary ball-handler. That wasn't his strength as a player- he could get assists still sure, but look at his early years- defenses were able to focus on him and prepare for him, because he had the ball in his hands from the inbounds. MJ was rarely the initiator in the triangle.
On, D I don't like Jordon on Wade or on Melo. I think both will wear him down and Jordan won't be fresh on O at the end of games. I think Melo especially will bully Jordan in the post. I also think that Hibachi's perimeter defenders could funnel Jordan into Moses, who while not a great shot blocker, takes up enough space that he prevent Jordan from reaching the rim.

I don't have a vote, but I wouldn't be surprised if Hibachi's team was able to get just enough stops to pull this series out.

[bastillon]

It almost seems like many posters are giving Jordan teams a presumption of superiority. I don't like Scott at the point at all. He wasn't a great initiator at all. He was typically a spot up shooter, albeit a good one. I don't like Jordan as the primary ball-handler. That wasn't his strength as a player- he could get assists still sure, but look at his early years- defenses were able to focus on him and prepare for him, because he had the ball in his hands from the inbounds. MJ was rarely the initiator in the triangle.
On, D I don't like Jordon on Wade or on Melo. I think both will wear him down and Jordan won't be fresh on O at the end of games. I think Melo especially will bully Jordan in the post. I also think that Hibachi's perimeter defenders could funnel Jordan into Moses, who while not a great shot blocker, takes up enough space that he prevent Jordan from reaching the rim.

I don't have a vote, but I wouldn't be surprised if Hibachi's team was able to get just enough stops to pull this series out.

that's some massive overrating of Moses help D. with Jordan you have to be really quick on your rotations to impact his shots. he doesn't even have to score a layup, he can just pull up from 10-15 and it's pretty much automatic for him. Moses was terrible in his help D because he didn't even contest shots if he wasn't going for the block. his blocks were rather a result of gambling and not strong defense.

Unlike most, I don't see Aldridge dominating Marion. I'd give Marion the edge because while Aldridge can post him, he isn't quick enough to hang with Marion who is a great off ball player and, at this point in his career, a decent if not outstanding 3 point shooter.

Marion has no off the dribble game whatsoever so it doesn't matter whether he is quicker than Aldridge. Marion's off ball game isn't helping him much because he wasn't a guy who was scoring off screens. mostly Marion benefitted from playing with Nash which made his scoring efficiency much better than it really was. Marion without Nash is actually a poor player offensively. in the postseason without Nash Marion was averaging like 15 pts on sub-50% TS.

"if not outstanding 3pt shooter" is a massive hyperbole as well. how is an outstanding 3pt shooter so poor shooting off the dribble? how come he didn't have any off screen game to speak of (with that ridiculous shooting form, he couldn't even shoot off screens because he didn't have balance)? Marion as a shooter is an ok spot up shooter and that's where his strengths as a shooter end. his percetanges are not telling you much because his 3pt shooting was heavily influenced by Nash's presence on the floor. without Nash Marion was mostly a sub-35% 3pt shooter. with Marion you can't look at his numbers in Phoenix because he was a completely different player without Nash. no doubt a great help defender and perimeter stopper but scoring/shooting was always his big weakness as a star.

[penbeast0]

Sub 35% is still a decent 3 point shooter, he shot .340 the year before Nash . . . while scoring 19ppg and shooting an efg of .474, roughly equivalent to Amare (scoring 20.6 per game) and better than Marbury or Joe Johnson (both under .465). With Nash, he improved tremendously to .520 . . . Amare improved to .560 and Johnson to .536 but it's always only Marion that you claim isn't an offensive player without Nash. Marion doesn't shoot off screens because his game is moving without the ball and flashing to the basket or freeing himself for a kickout. He's one of the best at catching and finishing so yes, he benefitted from Nash but so did the other members of the Suns rotation . . . more than Marion according to the stats. Marion without Nash is still a terrific finisher who works to get himself into good position for backdoor passes or kickouts and Aldridge will still have trouble with chasing him around.

If you think 19ppg as a 3rd option at an efg of .474 shows an inability to score without Steve Nash; well, my answer is the same as it was every other time you made this statement. He's a good (not great) scorer who does everything else extremely well.

[NoRoleModel]

It almost seems like many posters are giving Jordan teams a presumption of superiority. I don't like Scott at the point at all. He wasn't a great initiator at all. He was typically a spot up shooter, albeit a good one. I don't like Jordan as the primary ball-handler. That wasn't his strength as a player- he could get assists still sure, but look at his early years- defenses were able to focus on him and prepare for him, because he had the ball in his hands from the inbounds. MJ was rarely the initiator in the triangle.
On, D I don't like Jordon on Wade or on Melo. I think both will wear him down and Jordan won't be fresh on O at the end of games. I think Melo especially will bully Jordan in the post. I also think that Hibachi's perimeter defenders could funnel Jordan into Moses, who while not a great shot blocker, takes up enough space that he prevent Jordan from reaching the rim.

I don't have a vote, but I wouldn't be surprised if Hibachi's team was able to get just enough stops to pull this series out.

that's some massive overrating of Moses help D. with Jordan you have to be really quick on your rotations to impact his shots. he doesn't even have to score a layup, he can just pull up from 10-15 and it's pretty much automatic for him. Moses was terrible in his help D because he didn't even contest shots if he wasn't going for the block. his blocks were rather a result of gambling and not strong defense.

Unlike most, I don't see Aldridge dominating Marion. I'd give Marion the edge because while Aldridge can post him, he isn't quick enough to hang with Marion who is a great off ball player and, at this point in his career, a decent if not outstanding 3 point shooter.

Marion has no off the dribble game whatsoever so it doesn't matter whether he is quicker than Aldridge. Marion's off ball game isn't helping him much because he wasn't a guy who was scoring off screens. mostly Marion benefitted from playing with Nash which made his scoring efficiency much better than it really was. Marion without Nash is actually a poor player offensively. in the postseason without Nash Marion was averaging like 15 pts on sub-50% TS.

"if not outstanding 3pt shooter" is a massive hyperbole as well. how is an outstanding 3pt shooter so poor shooting off the dribble? how come he didn't have any off screen game to speak of (with that ridiculous shooting form, he couldn't even shoot off screens because he didn't have balance)? Marion as a shooter is an ok spot up shooter and that's where his strengths as a shooter end. his percetanges are not telling you much because his 3pt shooting was heavily influenced by Nash's presence on the floor. without Nash Marion was mostly a sub-35% 3pt shooter. with Marion you can't look at his numbers in Phoenix because he was a completely different player without Nash. no doubt a great help defender and perimeter stopper but scoring/shooting was always his big weakness as a star.

I don't mean to say that Moses was the fastest of feet.. but he did show the ability to be a hard, tireless worker, and has a great understanding of positioning- as demonstrated by his unparalleled offensive rebounding. To use his lack of defensive rotations, which is a concept made popular in the last decade, against him is misleading.

The more I think about it, the more I'd lean towards Hibachi in this matchup.

[ronnymac2]

Pleasantly surprised here. I don't think I've ever seen a Jordan-led team that had such a great fit like Narigo's team has. MisterHibachi's team is unorthodox, but I think he picked the right players for the right roles. Good job guys.

When Narigo is on offense, obviously Jordan and LMA are going to be featured. Wade/Iggy/Marion is probably the best rotation of man defenders to pit against MJ that a coach can ask for. I actually think I would have opted for Iggy/Marion to be the primary on Jordan and save Wade to help protect the rim, then have Melo try and guard Aldridge. Having Marion guard LMA isn't bad I suppose, but Matrix's perimeter D is his real strength. Aldridge is a monster mid-post player and has a clear size advantage. This is a good matchup for Narigo.

What I don't like about this team is the lack of a true floor general type point guard during big spots of the game. I would have liked somebody to decide when to go with a hot LMA, when to run Sikma to the high post, when to deliver the ball to a cutter in Marques Johnson. Somebody who takes the ball out of MJ's hands and makes MJ an even more potent scorer. Somebody to direct the fastbreak with perhaps the finest fastbreak finishing core around (MJ, LMA, Marques, Byron, Coop...Insanity). Hinrich definitely works, but how much burn is he getting?

Some of these concerns are alleviated because of the passing and shooting of the bigs — Bobby Jones, Jack Sikma, LMA. Ben Wallace wasn't terrible — he's a great offensive rebounder and solid stand-still passer. Johnson and Coop could certainly handle the ball (both played backup point duties at certain times in these years selected).

It's not the best matchup for Moses or Marion, but as I said, Iggy/Wade/Marion is an amazing trio for MJ, and I think that perimeter core makes life difficult for Coop, Scott, and even Marques at times.

Eaton better be in only when Big Ben is in, because otherwise, his defense likely won't have the intended effect since Sikma stays on the perimeter. I like Ibaka's defense here though. His style of D is a good mesh with the perimeter defenders and then Moses/Eaton.

When MisterHibachi is on offense, he's got Wade being the man, running a Miami-style offense except they've also got a the GOAT offensive rebounder here. That's a pretty sick offense. Wade is one of the GOAT creators on the perimeter. Best thing is, Wade is also very good off-ball as an offensive rebounder, cutter, pindown post player, etc. I think he and Deron fit well, because not only are they both excellent off-ball, but they are excellent off-ball in different ways. Wade is how I described above, while Deron is a great shooter from anywhere. I think they work well.

Melo is being asked to limit the iso scoring and instead be a spot-up shooter. He's being asked to let Wade/Williams/Iggy create for him. I buy it. He's been this whole time in NY doing exactly that, and ever since 2009 really, he's limited the amount of chucker-type shots he takes. Playing with Billups, then Felton/Kidd/Prigs really makes him better. I think Deron/Iggy/Wade have the same effect on him. He's playing with a smart group of perimeter players. I think Melo is good here.

I definitely don't buy Moses as a scoring threat off the pick-n-roll (Moses is nowhere near Tyson Chandler as a roll threat), but Ibaka is good here (good finisher, great jump shot). Still, even if it is Moses setting the screen, a pick gets Wade off and gives him a step, meaning he's creating for Melo, Williams, or J-Rich. Marion and Iggy are capable threats from deep as well. That's a very scary offense.

And when they run...remember when I said MJ/LMA/Scott/Coop/Marques are crazy on the break? Well, Iggy/Matrix/Wade/J-Rich, with Deron handling/spotting up and Melo spotting up...that's bonkers. THEY might be the best on the break.

I like that MH said Moses postups will be limited. I don't mind quick hitters where Marion/Ibaka set a cross screen for Moses and he pins down the smaller Sikma/Ben and just turns and lays the ball up with a foul. That was Moses' game along with GOAT offensive rebounding. He's not a creator, but he'll finish.

I think Moses presents a real problem here because of his power game. That said, Sikma was pretty tough and led the NBA in defensive rebound rate in 1982 while being top-5 the other years selected, so he's a decent foil for Moses at least.

I'm really stumped here. Both teams are great but have a few flaws that could be exposed. Narigo's is the lack of a true floor-general type aside from Hinrich (and it's unclear how much burn Kirk gets here). I think that flaw puts a cap on the offensive effectiveness of the team. MisterHibachi's is the defensive personnel/gameplan. Not liking their rim protection or the help defense of their big-minute big men (particularly Moses, and even Eaton if he's tasked with defending Sikma). I think LMA has a big series, too. I really like Marion's defense, but I don't see that working out well against Aldridge.

I'm going to give this a little while longer before voting. Really not sure yet.

In the end, I think MH had the unorthodox matchup/style that could handle Narigo's Non-Michael Jordan wings. None of them are pure points, and those ultra-aggressive wing defenders may really wreak havoc.

Vote: MisterHibachi in six games

[MisterHibachi]

bastillon: Narigo
TMACFORMVP
penbeast0: MisterHibachi
ronnymac2: MisterHibachi
Doctor MJ: Narigo
SideshowBob
Texas Chuck: Narigo
therealbig3: Narigo

[whitehops]

when is this matchup going to be finished? voting has already been open for about five days...

[TMACFORMVP]

Vote: Narigo. I'll expound later, but I like the fit a little more.