Around the NBA 4.0

[Elden Payton]

I would hope not. He's a good young player but he's one of those chuckers that you have to keep on a leash or he'll shoot every time he touch the ball. He's like a young Jamal Crawford or something.

I've watched a bit of the Cavs over the last few seasons and Waiters didn't come across as a chucker to me.

He's a very good playmaker and an exceptional passer from what I've seen.

He can be streaky and can be a gunner but he is literally his teams second (or third) option on offense despite coming off the bench and designated first offensive option with the bench unit.

He's playing 28.8 minutes and averaging 13.1 shots as a designated offensive option.

It literally boils down to a shot every 2 & a bit minutes which is not chucking at all.

He 'only' averages 2.6 assists but that is not reflective of his passing ability, for reference Hendo averages 2.7 (career high) in 33.1 mpg.

Obviously Hendo is an average passer as we know, though his assists per game don't necessarily reflect that, Waiters is like the opposite.

You're not the only one that watched a bit of the Cavs. I'm sure I've seen more Waiters than you and I've seen enough to know that he's a chucker no matter how you try to flip it. He was a chucker at Life Center Academy in Jersey. He was a chucker at Syracuse. And most Cavs fans will tell you that he's a chucker. That's not to say that I don't want him because I would trade Hendo with the Portland pick for him easily but he's best fit as a 6th man because he's a combo guard, undersized SG with a little bit of passing ability, scorer with questionable defense.

So he's a chucker no matter how much the numbers suggest he isn't?

I'm not trying to flip anything, I just provided facts to suggest that it isn't the case.

I never claimed that you haven't watched him, I said I've watched the Cavs a bit and every time I've watched him he has not looked like a chucker at all.

You're entitled to your opinion, I'm not going to be obnoxious over it.

[Elden Payton]

Waiters and Kemba are remarkably similar in terms of offensive production per 36.

No doubt Kemba is the better player but Waiters provides similar offensive production (which is what we need)

I'd like to see what Waiters could do with more PT.

[catch20two]

Waiters and Kemba are remarkably similar in terms of offensive production per 36.

No doubt Kemba is the better player but Waiters provides similar offensive production (which is what we need)

I'd like to see what Waiters could do with more PT.

I didn't mean to come off obnoxious at all. We're just discussing basketball in a civilized manner trying to get our points across. Per 36 Waiters would be the 2nd option behind Jefferson on our team. He put up shots. That's what he do. It might just be me but I view him as a 6th man type where he could play some backup SG and a little backup PG. I would play him about 30 minutes per game off the bench spelling both guard spots, mostly SG. I just don't view him as a true SG especially with his suspect defense or lack of effort on that end. At least he's not as chubby as he used to be.

[MasterIchiro]

I'd rather see Waiters chuck up (wide open) shots off a Jefferson double team than watch Hendo devour shot clock.


I don't think CLE does that deal. Maybe we can sweeten the pot, throw in Zeller for Bennett.

[Elden Payton]

Waiters and Kemba are remarkably similar in terms of offensive production per 36.

No doubt Kemba is the better player but Waiters provides similar offensive production (which is what we need)

I'd like to see what Waiters could do with more PT.

I didn't mean to come off obnoxious at all. We're just discussing basketball in a civilized manner trying to get our points across. Per 36 Waiters would be the 2nd option behind Jefferson on our team. He put up shots. That's what he do. It might just be me but I view him as a 6th man type where he could play some backup SG and a little backup PG. I would play him about 30 minutes per game off the bench spelling both guard spots, mostly SG. I just don't view him as a true SG especially with his suspect defense or lack of effort on that end. At least he's not as chubby as he used to be.

I'm not trying to claim anything or get a point across, you're welcome to your opinion, this is the internet afterall.

I'm not trying to sell him or pimp him to my fellow Bobcat fans.

I'm not claiming that I've watched him more than anyone.

I'm not claiming anything that the eye test or numbers don't suggest.

He attempts a shot every two and a bit minutes as his teams number one option off the bench, he is his teams third option overall and spent a lot of his rookie season as his teams second option.

Playing the sixth man role at around 30 minutes he averages 13 fga a game, he would not be our second option if starting, he probably wouldn't play 36 minutes a game either, playing 32 minutes he would average around 14 fga.

He would clearly be our third option and would suit that role, would people really rather MKG or McBob be our third option offensively over Waiters?

He's not 'just' a scorer, he plays hard, attempts to play defense and is an excellent and willing passer, the guy really is one of the most underrated passers in the league and everytime I've seen him, I have not seen a selfish player.

The knock on him coming out of college mainly was the belief that he would be too ball dominant offensively, honestly I have not seen that either, Kyrie is so ball dominant it is borderline ridiculous.

[Elden Payton]

I'd rather see Waiters chuck up (wide open) shots off a Jefferson double team than watch Hendo devour shot clock.


I don't think CLE does that deal. Maybe we can sweeten the pot, throw in Zeller for Bennett.

Waiters is shooting 38 percent from 3.

Jefferson approves

[catch20two]

Sik Infant, I advise you to watch another Cavs game then. I have no reason to try to talk Waiters down when I wouldn't mind him on our team. If we had Waiters he would be our 3rd option like you said but he can do that off the bench until he prove to be a more complete player. I'll end the debate here since it seem that I somehow rubbed you the wrong way when you were the one that quoted me trying to say that Waiters is better suited to be a starter and I explained my stance that he's better suited as a 6th man.

[mrknowitall215]

Dion Waiters is a chucker. You can't try to define or denounce the chucker label by measuring field goal attempts, whether by raw numbers or per 36. If that's the case, Waiters average more shot attempts per 36 for his career than J.R. Smith, and there's no way that you can tell me that the latter isn't a chucker. I wouldn't recommend Waiters for Charlotte, but he's a better option than Jerome McKinley Henderson Jr., so why not

[Elden Payton]

Sik Infant, I advise you to watch another Cavs game then. I have no reason to try to talk Waiters down when I wouldn't mind him on our team. If we had Waiters he would be our 3rd option like you said but he can do that off the bench until he prove to be a more complete player. I'll end the debate here since it seem that I somehow rubbed you the wrong way when you were the one that quoted me trying to say that Waiters is better suited to be a starter and I explained my stance that he's better suited as a 6th man.

I'm not debating anything?

I just pointed out the logic that if we traded our starting SG for a SG then maybe we should start him, especially since our other options at SG are our backup point and our third string SF.

You have basically called him a one dimensional chucker which the eye test and numbers suggest he isn't.

You have claimed that he couldn't start because that would make him our second option, which again the numbers don't suggest he would be and to which you agree.

It is basically Realgm custom to discuss the merits of claims made about <insert player here> especially when there is merit to the possibility we could trade for them.

[Elden Payton]

Dion Waiters is a chucker. You can't try to define or denounce the chucker label by measuring field goal attempts, whether by raw numbers or per 36. If that's the case, Waiters average more shot attempts per 36 for his career than J.R. Smith, and there's no way that you can tell me that the latter isn't a chucker. I wouldn't recommend Waiters for Charlotte, but he's a better option than Jerome McKinley Henderson Jr., so why not

JR hasn't always had the role of being the main option off the bench, 09-10 was the breakout of the J.R we all know and 'love'

Waiters averages around about what Kemba averages per 36, is Kemba a chucker?

[catch20two]

Sik Infant, I advise you to watch another Cavs game then. I have no reason to try to talk Waiters down when I wouldn't mind him on our team. If we had Waiters he would be our 3rd option like you said but he can do that off the bench until he prove to be a more complete player. I'll end the debate here since it seem that I somehow rubbed you the wrong way when you were the one that quoted me trying to say that Waiters is better suited to be a starter and I explained my stance that he's better suited as a 6th man.

I'm not debating anything?

I just pointed out the logic that if we traded our starting SG for a SG then maybe we should start him, especially since our other options at SG are our backup point and our third string SF.

You have basically called him a one dimensional chucker which the eye test and numbers suggest he isn't.

You have claimed that he couldn't start because that would make him our second option, which again the numbers don't suggest he would be and to which you agree.

It is basically Realgm custom to discuss the merits of claims made about <insert player here> especially when there is merit to the possibility we could trade for them.

You keep saying the eye test but your eyes might be the only eyes that don't view him as a one dimensional chucker. That's what he is right now but that doesn't mean that he's not decent enough. I never said that he'd be our 2nd option. I said based off shots per minute he would be our 2nd option because he shoot more than Kemba in a way of trying to explain to you that he shoots a lot. I never said that he would come off the bench for us if we traded for him. I said that I would prefer him to come off the bench for us. It's all comprehension.

[mrknowitall215]

Dion Waiters is a chucker. You can't try to define or denounce the chucker label by measuring field goal attempts, whether by raw numbers or per 36. If that's the case, Waiters average more shot attempts per 36 for his career than J.R. Smith, and there's no way that you can tell me that the latter isn't a chucker. I wouldn't recommend Waiters for Charlotte, but he's a better option than Jerome McKinley Henderson Jr., so why not

JR hasn't always had the role of being the main option off the bench, 09-10 was the breakout of the J.R we all know and 'love'

Waiters averages around about what Kemba averages per 36, is Kemba a chucker?

Reading is your friend. I stated that the logic of using field goal attempts to measure whether or not if a player is a 'chucker' is null & void, because it neither "define or denounce" the label. There's pass-first point guards that shoot around 15 shots per game, but that doesn't make them a chucker, and there's shoot-first players that average around 15 shots per game that I would consider a chucker. I don't think Kemba is a chucker, but I think Dion Waiters is

[Elden Payton]

Sik Infant, I advise you to watch another Cavs game then. I have no reason to try to talk Waiters down when I wouldn't mind him on our team. If we had Waiters he would be our 3rd option like you said but he can do that off the bench until he prove to be a more complete player. I'll end the debate here since it seem that I somehow rubbed you the wrong way when you were the one that quoted me trying to say that Waiters is better suited to be a starter and I explained my stance that he's better suited as a 6th man.

I'm not debating anything?

I just pointed out the logic that if we traded our starting SG for a SG then maybe we should start him, especially since our other options at SG are our backup point and our third string SF.

You have basically called him a one dimensional chucker which the eye test and numbers suggest he isn't.

You have claimed that he couldn't start because that would make him our second option, which again the numbers don't suggest he would be and to which you agree.

It is basically Realgm custom to discuss the merits of claims made about <insert player here> especially when there is merit to the possibility we could trade for them.

You keep saying the eye test but your eyes might be the only eyes that don't view him as a one dimensional chucker. That's what he is right now but that doesn't mean that he's not decent enough. I never said that he'd be our 2nd option. I said based off shots per minute he would be our 2nd option because he shoot more than Kemba in a way of trying to explain to you that he shoots a lot. I never said that he would come off the bench for us if we traded for him. I said that I would prefer him to come off the bench for us. It's all comprehension.

Just because your eyes disagree with my eyes it doesn't mean my eyes are wrong, I'm not syaing your eyes are wring either, the truth often lies somewhere in the middle.

How is he one dimensional?

He can score of the dribble, slashing and can shoot the deep ball.

He's got excellent vision and is an excellent passer, he's also a willing passer.

Defensively he's not crash hot but he actually tries to play defense.

He rebounds a little bit.

The role Waiters plays means he does have to carry their offense at times, aside from Kyrie (and now Deng) who on the Cavs even remotely compares to Waiters offensively, who else should take those shots.

The guy is a gunner, I can see that, but a gunner is not the same as being a chucker.

Chuckers take a lot of shots, whether they are good or bad shots.

Gunners are not shy about putting up open looks or riding a hot hand, there is a difference.

Kemba is a gunner, not a chucker.

To me at least Waiters is in the same boat.

[catch20two]

He's one dimensional in the sense that he's just offense. He only tries to play defense because his coaches demand it from him in order for him to get playing time but that don't mean that he's good at it. Boeheim called him out about his defense and so did Byron Scott. As far as shot selection you can just google "Dion Waiters shot selection" and you see a whole sh*tload of rants or laughs about his bad shot selection. If you want to call him a gunner then you can. I call him a chucker and I'd say 80% of people that watch him would agree.

[Elden Payton]

Dion Waiters is a chucker. You can't try to define or denounce the chucker label by measuring field goal attempts, whether by raw numbers or per 36. If that's the case, Waiters average more shot attempts per 36 for his career than J.R. Smith, and there's no way that you can tell me that the latter isn't a chucker. I wouldn't recommend Waiters for Charlotte, but he's a better option than Jerome McKinley Henderson Jr., so why not

JR hasn't always had the role of being the main option off the bench, 09-10 was the breakout of the J.R we all know and 'love'

Waiters averages around about what Kemba averages per 36, is Kemba a chucker?

Reading is your friend. I stated that the logic of using field goal attempts to measure whether or not if a player is a 'chucker' is null & void, because it neither "define or denounce" the label. There's pass-first point guards that shoot around 15 shots per game, but that doesn't make them a chucker, and there's shoot-first players that average around 15 shots per game that I would consider a chucker. I don't think Kemba is a chucker, but I think Dion Waiters is

I did read what you wrote which is contradictory to your opinion.

In regards to J.R, in his sixth season he started playing the role that Waiters has been using since day dot, if J.R Brick had, had that role since his rookie season his fga would be off the charts.

I just pointed out your logic by asking, is Kemba a chucker?

FGA in minutes played, plus efficiency, plus their role is a good measure of if a player is taking too many shots.

Please use some kind of metric or evidence to suggest otherwise.

You are therefor mistaking your opinion with fact.

At least I am trying to rationalise (with evidence) the claim people make that he is a chucker.

[Elden Payton]

He's one dimensional in the sense that he's just offense. He only tries to play defense because his coaches demand it from him in order for him to get playing time but that don't mean that he's good at it. Boeheim called him out about his defense and so did Byron Scott. As far as shot selection you can just google "Dion Waiters shot selection" and you see a whole sh*tload of rants or laughs about his bad shot selection. If you want to call him a gunner then you can. I call him a chucker and I'd say 80% of people that watch him would agree.

Basketball is not broken down into just simply offense and defense.

There are many factors and wrinkles that make up offense and there are many that make up defense.

Waiters has a diverse offensive game which makes him more than one dimensional right there, he can handle the ball, shoot, slash and finish in the paint for the most part.

Aside from his ball handling, he is as I've mentioned an excellent passer and a willing one at that.

He tries to play defense, he may not be very good at it but at least he tries which is more than 75 percent of the NBA, he is in his second season and will no doubt improve as long as he continues to focus on playing it (which he does)

Are you friends with Dion Waiters, how can you make an assumption that he only plays defense because he wouldn't get PT without it and state it as fact?

Anthony Tolliver is one dimensional, Waiters is a much more rounded player.

[mrknowitall215]

JR hasn't always had the role of being the main option off the bench, 09-10 was the breakout of the J.R we all know and 'love'

Waiters averages around about what Kemba averages per 36, is Kemba a chucker?

Reading is your friend. I stated that the logic of using field goal attempts to measure whether or not if a player is a 'chucker' is null & void, because it neither "define or denounce" the label. There's pass-first point guards that shoot around 15 shots per game, but that doesn't make them a chucker, and there's shoot-first players that average around 15 shots per game that I would consider a chucker. I don't think Kemba is a chucker, but I think Dion Waiters is

I did read what you wrote which is contradictory to your opinion.

In regards to J.R, in his sixth season he started playing the role that Waiters has been using since day dot, if J.R Brick had, had that role since his rookie season his fga would be off the charts.

I just pointed out your logic by asking, is Kemba a chucker?

FGA in minutes played, plus efficiency, plus their role is a good measure of if a player is taking too many shots.

Please use some kind of metric or evidence to suggest otherwise.

You are therefor mistaking your opinion with fact.

At least I am trying to rationalise (with evidence) the claim people make that he is a chucker.

Let me break my statement down in laymen's terms because you're still not getting it. I don't think using field goal attempts is a reasonable way to tell whether a player is a chucker or not. There was no contradiction in none of my post or statements

[LamarMatic7]

In a way, I think that we can't know anything for sure with this Cleveland team.

Dion Waiters takes a lot of bad mid-range jumpers off the dribble, early in the shot clock (before not getting back on defense) but the team chemistry is just so off that it makes me wonder whether he's just a young guy going for his on a bad team. Sometimes it just looks like the Cavs take turns on who's shooting next. Knowing that it's unlikely to get the ball back, the guys (mostly Kyrie and Dion) just rather attack themselves.

Waiters's skill set is nice. I wouldn't mind having him on my team.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I agree with both of you. You can call him a chucker but he's capable of so much more and from time to time he may show that.

[catch20two]

He's one dimensional in the sense that he's just offense. He only tries to play defense because his coaches demand it from him in order for him to get playing time but that don't mean that he's good at it. Boeheim called him out about his defense and so did Byron Scott. As far as shot selection you can just google "Dion Waiters shot selection" and you see a whole sh*tload of rants or laughs about his bad shot selection. If you want to call him a gunner then you can. I call him a chucker and I'd say 80% of people that watch him would agree.

Basketball is not broken down into just simply offense and defense.

There are many factors and wrinkles that make up offense and there are many that make up defense.

Waiters has a diverse offensive game which makes him more than one dimensional right there, he can handle the ball, shoot, slash and finish in the paint for the most part.

Aside from his ball handling, he is as I've mentioned an excellent passer and a willing one at that.

He tries to play defense, he may not be very good at it but at least he tries which is more than 75 percent of the NBA, he is in his second season and will no doubt improve as long as he continues to focus on playing it (which he does)

Are you friends with Dion Waiters, how can you make an assumption that he only plays defense because he wouldn't get PT without it and state it as fact?

Anthony Tolliver is one dimensional, Waiters is a much more rounded player.

Dion Waiters is a EXCELLENT passer /green font. I think it's time for me to get some rest.

[LamarMatic7]

He only tries to play defense because his coaches demand it from him in order for him to get playing time but that don't mean that he's good at it.

Well, yeah, what else is there for him to do? If you're bad at it, then at least try.

A very weird statement.