Around the NBA 4.0

[LamarMatic7]

He's one dimensional in the sense that he's just offense. He only tries to play defense because his coaches demand it from him in order for him to get playing time but that don't mean that he's good at it. Boeheim called him out about his defense and so did Byron Scott. As far as shot selection you can just google "Dion Waiters shot selection" and you see a whole sh*tload of rants or laughs about his bad shot selection. If you want to call him a gunner then you can. I call him a chucker and I'd say 80% of people that watch him would agree.

Basketball is not broken down into just simply offense and defense.

There are many factors and wrinkles that make up offense and there are many that make up defense.

Waiters has a diverse offensive game which makes him more than one dimensional right there, he can handle the ball, shoot, slash and finish in the paint for the most part.

Aside from his ball handling, he is as I've mentioned an excellent passer and a willing one at that.

He tries to play defense, he may not be very good at it but at least he tries which is more than 75 percent of the NBA, he is in his second season and will no doubt improve as long as he continues to focus on playing it (which he does)

Are you friends with Dion Waiters, how can you make an assumption that he only plays defense because he wouldn't get PT without it and state it as fact?

Anthony Tolliver is one dimensional, Waiters is a much more rounded player.

Dion Waiters is a EXCELLENT passer /green font. I think it's time for me to get some rest.

The fact that he plays on a dysfunctional team doesn't mean he can't pass the ball. Of course, it's to be seen whether he can be a willing passer over longer periods of time in this league, for all we know he might continue to chuck shots his whole career. but the guy has the skill of creating for others.

[Elden Payton]

Reading is your friend. I stated that the logic of using field goal attempts to measure whether or not if a player is a 'chucker' is null & void, because it neither "define or denounce" the label. There's pass-first point guards that shoot around 15 shots per game, but that doesn't make them a chucker, and there's shoot-first players that average around 15 shots per game that I would consider a chucker. I don't think Kemba is a chucker, but I think Dion Waiters is

I did read what you wrote which is contradictory to your opinion.

In regards to J.R, in his sixth season he started playing the role that Waiters has been using since day dot, if J.R Brick had, had that role since his rookie season his fga would be off the charts.

I just pointed out your logic by asking, is Kemba a chucker?

FGA in minutes played, plus efficiency, plus their role is a good measure of if a player is taking too many shots.

Please use some kind of metric or evidence to suggest otherwise.

You are therefor mistaking your opinion with fact.

At least I am trying to rationalise (with evidence) the claim people make that he is a chucker.

Let me break my statement down in laymen's terms because you're still not getting it. I don't think using field goal attempts is a reasonable way to tell whether a player is a chucker or not. There was no contradiction in none of my post or statements

You claim he is a chucker but say you can't define chucking with numbers simply because the numbers don't suggest he is.

In the case numbers are used then Waiters is a chucker because he averages more fga than a guy who plays a similar role (but only since halfway into his career) which is a strawman since if J.R had played Waiters' role since day dot then his FGA would be far and above Waiters.

Even if we use the same logic and numbers for Kemba, then it's the opposite and Kemba isn't a chucker but Waiters still is.

How does that even make sense?

Basically you are saying you cannot use field goal/offensive metrics to measure whether a player is taking too many shots because you don't think it's reasonable?

You are claiming something as fact but offer no evidence because the evidence isn't reasonable to your opinon.

[catch20two]

He only tries to play defense because his coaches demand it from him in order for him to get playing time but that don't mean that he's good at it.

Well, yeah, what else is there for him to do? If you're bad at it, then at least try.

A very weird statement.

What's so weird about it? If a coach told him the reason that I'm not playing or starting you is because of a lack of defensive effort then of course he's going to try harder. What I'm trying to say is that I question if he would care to give defensive effort if his coach didn't demand it. Smh

Jim Boeheim admitted to stating the obvious on Saturday. He was discussing Dion Waiters, his brash sophomore guard. Boeheim described him as a superior offensive talent, the kind of player who can score points when the opportunity arises.

But what Boeheim wanted from Waiters last season was something that Waiters was sometimes unwilling to provide. Boeheim wanted Waiters to play some defense. And Waiters too often considered defense a mere distraction from his next opportunity to score. http://blog.syracuse.com/orangebasketba ... rmine.html

[Elden Payton]

He's one dimensional in the sense that he's just offense. He only tries to play defense because his coaches demand it from him in order for him to get playing time but that don't mean that he's good at it. Boeheim called him out about his defense and so did Byron Scott. As far as shot selection you can just google "Dion Waiters shot selection" and you see a whole sh*tload of rants or laughs about his bad shot selection. If you want to call him a gunner then you can. I call him a chucker and I'd say 80% of people that watch him would agree.

Basketball is not broken down into just simply offense and defense.

There are many factors and wrinkles that make up offense and there are many that make up defense.

Waiters has a diverse offensive game which makes him more than one dimensional right there, he can handle the ball, shoot, slash and finish in the paint for the most part.

Aside from his ball handling, he is as I've mentioned an excellent passer and a willing one at that.

He tries to play defense, he may not be very good at it but at least he tries which is more than 75 percent of the NBA, he is in his second season and will no doubt improve as long as he continues to focus on playing it (which he does)

Are you friends with Dion Waiters, how can you make an assumption that he only plays defense because he wouldn't get PT without it and state it as fact?

Anthony Tolliver is one dimensional, Waiters is a much more rounded player.

Dion Waiters is a EXCELLENT passer /green font. I think it's time for me to get some rest.

At least be constructive.

[Elden Payton]

He only tries to play defense because his coaches demand it from him in order for him to get playing time but that don't mean that he's good at it.

Well, yeah, what else is there for him to do? If you're bad at it, then at least try.

A very weird statement.

What's so weird about it? If a coach told him the reason that I'm not playing or starting you is because of a lack of defensive effort then of course he's going to try harder. What I'm trying to say is that I question if he would care to give defensive effort if his coach didn't demand it. Smh

Jim Boeheim admitted to stating the obvious on Saturday. He was discussing Dion Waiters, his brash sophomore guard. Boeheim described him as a superior offensive talent, the kind of player who can score points when the opportunity arises.

But what Boeheim wanted from Waiters last season was something that Waiters was sometimes unwilling to provide. Boeheim wanted Waiters to play some defense. And Waiters too often considered defense a mere distraction from his next opportunity to score. http://blog.syracuse.com/orangebasketba ... rmine.html

Are you being serious?

A freshman needed to put more focus in on the defensive side of the ball?

It's a weird statement because you are somehow trying to use the fact that he tries to play defense as something against him.

[Elden Payton]

In a way, I think that we can't know anything for sure with this Cleveland team.

Dion Waiters takes a lot of bad mid-range jumpers off the dribble, early in the shot clock (before not getting back on defense) but the team chemistry is just so off that it makes me wonder whether he's just a young guy going for his on a bad team. Sometimes it just looks like the Cavs take turns on who's shooting next. Knowing that it's unlikely to get the ball back, the guys (mostly Kyrie and Dion) just rather attack themselves.

Waiters's skill set is nice. I wouldn't mind having him on my team.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I agree with both of you. You can call him a chucker but he's capable of so much more and from time to time he may show that.

Excellent post as usual Lamar!

Please use your statistical wizardry to critique Waiters!

Pretty please!

[catch20two]

Well, yeah, what else is there for him to do? If you're bad at it, then at least try.

A very weird statement.

What's so weird about it? If a coach told him the reason that I'm not playing or starting you is because of a lack of defensive effort then of course he's going to try harder. What I'm trying to say is that I question if he would care to give defensive effort if his coach didn't demand it. Smh

Jim Boeheim admitted to stating the obvious on Saturday. He was discussing Dion Waiters, his brash sophomore guard. Boeheim described him as a superior offensive talent, the kind of player who can score points when the opportunity arises.

But what Boeheim wanted from Waiters last season was something that Waiters was sometimes unwilling to provide. Boeheim wanted Waiters to play some defense. And Waiters too often considered defense a mere distraction from his next opportunity to score. http://blog.syracuse.com/orangebasketba ... rmine.html

Are you being serious?

A freshman needed to put more focus in on the defensive side of the ball?

It's a weird statement because you are somehow trying to use the fact that he tries to play defense as something against him.

Are you being serious? Byron Scott complained about his defense and Mike Brown was frustrated with his defense. It's not just a trend when each and every coach criticize his defensive effort. He just don't care for that side of the ball. It is what it is. I don't know what's the fuss.

[LamarMatic7]

He only tries to play defense because his coaches demand it from him in order for him to get playing time but that don't mean that he's good at it.

Well, yeah, what else is there for him to do? If you're bad at it, then at least try.

A very weird statement.

What's so weird about it? If a coach told him the reason that I'm not playing or starting you is because of a lack of defensive effort then of course he's going to try harder. What I'm trying to say is that I question if he would care to give defensive effort if his coach didn't demand it. Smh

Jim Boeheim admitted to stating the obvious on Saturday. He was discussing Dion Waiters, his brash sophomore guard. Boeheim described him as a superior offensive talent, the kind of player who can score points when the opportunity arises.

But what Boeheim wanted from Waiters last season was something that Waiters was sometimes unwilling to provide. Boeheim wanted Waiters to play some defense. And Waiters too often considered defense a mere distraction from his next opportunity to score. http://blog.syracuse.com/orangebasketba ... rmine.html

OK, I get what you're trying to say here.

My problem is just that you're almost not giving the guy a chance. You're blasting him for now trying to play defense after he showed some bad habits in his rookie year. It's as if he can't win in your book.

I also want to add that a lot of young guys struggle mightily on defense in their first pro years. But it's something they can pick up from certain coaches or systems. So as I said... at least he's trying now, even if he didn't so initially.

[LamarMatic7]

It's a weird statement because you are somehow trying to use the fact that he tries to play defense as something against him.

Exactly. That's what I was trying to say, Catch, only I needed so many more words.

[catch20two]

OK, I get what you're trying to say here.

My problem is just that you're almost not giving the guy a chance. You're blasting him for now trying to play defense after he showed some bad habits in his rookie year. It's as if he can't win in your book.

I also want to add that a lot of young guys struggle mightily on defense in their first pro years. But it's something they can pick up from certain coaches or systems. So as I said... at least he's trying now, even if he didn't so initially.

I never said that he'll never get better at defense. I just said that he's not a good defender as we speak. I can say every player in the league that's not limited by athleticism or size could be a good defender if they tried but I wouldn't trust a player to become a consistently good defender unless it's instilled in them from the start. As he mature as a player he will start to put more focus on that side of the ball if he want to win. I haven't said nothing wrong about him. Y'all tryna make it seem like I'm hating on Waiters. I was the one saying that I want to trade for him before Sik Infant added his 2 cents. I just said that my personal preference would be for him to be a 6th man because I believe that's his best role for a team that's trying to win. Waiters could play the same role as Sessions for us but more so geared as a backup SG that can play a little bit of PG.

[mrknowitall215]

I did read what you wrote which is contradictory to your opinion.

In regards to J.R, in his sixth season he started playing the role that Waiters has been using since day dot, if J.R Brick had, had that role since his rookie season his fga would be off the charts.

I just pointed out your logic by asking, is Kemba a chucker?

FGA in minutes played, plus efficiency, plus their role is a good measure of if a player is taking too many shots.

Please use some kind of metric or evidence to suggest otherwise.

You are therefor mistaking your opinion with fact.

At least I am trying to rationalise (with evidence) the claim people make that he is a chucker.

Let me break my statement down in laymen's terms because you're still not getting it. I don't think using field goal attempts is a reasonable way to tell whether a player is a chucker or not. There was no contradiction in none of my post or statements

You claim he is a chucker but say you can't define chucking with numbers simply because the numbers don't suggest he is.

In the case numbers are used then Waiters is a chucker because he averages more fga than a guy who plays a similar role (but only since halfway into his career) which is a strawman since if J.R had played Waiters' role since day dot then his FGA would be far and above Waiters.

Even if we use the same logic and numbers for Kemba, then it's the opposite and Kemba isn't a chucker but Waiters still is.

How does that even make sense?

Basically you are saying you cannot use field goal/offensive metrics to measure whether a player is taking too many shots because you don't think it's reasonable?

You are claiming something as fact but offer no evidence because the evidence isn't reasonable to your opinon.

If I state "I don't think", where does it insinuate that I'm calling it as a fact? That just mean that it's my own personal opinion. 'I think' Dion Waiters is a chucker because he has a bad shot selection, not gun-shy, and isn't very efficient

[LamarMatic7]

OK, I get what you're trying to say here.

My problem is just that you're almost not giving the guy a chance. You're blasting him for now trying to play defense after he showed some bad habits in his rookie year. It's as if he can't win in your book.

I also want to add that a lot of young guys struggle mightily on defense in their first pro years. But it's something they can pick up from certain coaches or systems. So as I said... at least he's trying now, even if he didn't so initially.

I never said that he'll never get better at defense.

When did I ever accuse you of saying that?

[LamarMatic7]

In a way, I think that we can't know anything for sure with this Cleveland team.

Dion Waiters takes a lot of bad mid-range jumpers off the dribble, early in the shot clock (before not getting back on defense) but the team chemistry is just so off that it makes me wonder whether he's just a young guy going for his on a bad team. Sometimes it just looks like the Cavs take turns on who's shooting next. Knowing that it's unlikely to get the ball back, the guys (mostly Kyrie and Dion) just rather attack themselves.

Waiters's skill set is nice. I wouldn't mind having him on my team.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I agree with both of you. You can call him a chucker but he's capable of so much more and from time to time he may show that.

Excellent post as usual Lamar!

Please use your statistical wizardry to critique Waiters!

Pretty please!

Well...

For one, I find it interesting that his off/on DefRTG numbers are way improved since last season. He's in the same boat as Andy Varejao, Deng and CJ Miles - with them on the bench, the Cavs defense is a few points worse (meanwhile, the Cavs only give up a respectable 99 points per 100 poss. when Kyrie hits the bench). You can definitely point at the fact that Waiters is coming off the bench now and that it simply means that the Cavs starters give up many points against other starting units while Waiters of course is off the court. But it's a positive nevertheless and actually the five most used line-ups with Waiters on the court involve Varejao, Thompson and Irving as well, thus he gets much burn with the starters either way. Only the eighth most used Waiters line-up is what you could call a bench unit. So that kind of debunks the theory of his numbers being better just because he comes off the bench.

I'm working on this one other idea I came up with now for evaluating Waiters's shot taking. had a light bulb go off in my head. the results could be interesting.

[Elden Payton]

In a way, I think that we can't know anything for sure with this Cleveland team.

Dion Waiters takes a lot of bad mid-range jumpers off the dribble, early in the shot clock (before not getting back on defense) but the team chemistry is just so off that it makes me wonder whether he's just a young guy going for his on a bad team. Sometimes it just looks like the Cavs take turns on who's shooting next. Knowing that it's unlikely to get the ball back, the guys (mostly Kyrie and Dion) just rather attack themselves.

Waiters's skill set is nice. I wouldn't mind having him on my team.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I agree with both of you. You can call him a chucker but he's capable of so much more and from time to time he may show that.

Excellent post as usual Lamar!

Please use your statistical wizardry to critique Waiters!

Pretty please!

Well...

For one, I find it interesting that his off/on DefRTG numbers are way improved since last season. He's in the same boat as Andy Varejao, Deng and CJ Miles - with them on the bench, the Cavs defense is a few points worse (meanwhile, the Cavs only give up a respectable 99 points per 100 poss. when Kyrie hits the bench). You can definitely point at the fact that Waiters is coming off the bench now and that it simply means that the Cavs starters give up many points against other starting units while Waiters of course is off the court. But it's a positive nevertheless and actually the five most used line-ups with Waiters on the court involve Varejao, Thompson and Irving as well, thus he gets much burn with the starters either way. Only the eighth most used Waiters line-up is what you could call a bench unit. So that kind of debunks the theory of his numbers being better just because he comes off the bench.

I'm working on this one other idea I came up with now for evaluating Waiters's shot taking. had a light bulb go off in my head. the results could be interesting.

Cheers for the insight Lamar!

He is their first option off the bench and as I stated, he is still their second (or third now) option despite playing with the starters.

He is the clearcut number one offensive option with their bench unit also.

It bodes well that his ortg and drtg are much improved.

[LamarMatic7]

So here's the idea I had.

Sik and KnowItAll unsuccessfully tried to find a common ground through FGA per 36 to classify shot chucking.

How about we take front-court touches per game and divide them with field goal attempts per game? Even though it still doesn't account for the different ways these guys can be used (whether they have to create for others or they have the coach's green light to shoot themselves), I think it's a great way to see how often one takes a shot after getting the ball. I think that this made-up stat won't treat Waiters well though because of the afore-mentioned shot turn-taking in Cleveland.

I looked for similar scoring guards to Waiters and the filter was players who at least attempt 16 field goals per 36 minutes. J.R. Smith as the chairman of the Chucker club got an invite despite averaging only 13.5 fga per 36 this season. Early on I also checked out point guards but research proved that they probably do too much creating for others to be in the same category. Additionally, I added the stat of "points per front-court touch" to make it more interesting.

Gary Neal - 1 field goal attempt per 3.09 half-court touches, 0.35 points per half-court touch
Dion Waiters - 1 FGA per 3.21, 0.35 ppt
Evan Turner - 1 FGA per 3.36, 0.34 ppt
Shabazz Muhammad (lol, why not) - 1 FGA per 2.72, 0.25 ppt
JJ Barea - 1 FGA per 4.79, 0.21 ppt (probably more of a point guard)
Tyreke Evans - 1 FGA per 3.33, 0.33ppt
Jannero Pargo - 1 FGA per 5.15, 0.25ppt (he's been chucking a lot, but still belongs with the point guards)
Kevin Martin - 1 FGA per 2.68, 0.47ppt (a huge rate but evidently he's been effective)
Nick Young - 1 FGA per 2.59, 0.47ppt (wow, even a huger rate. still effective)
Rudy Gay - 1 FGA per 2.63, 0.47ppt (TOTAL, both TOR and SAC)
DeMar DeRozan - 1 FGA per 3.00, 0.41ppt
Jamal Crawford - 1 FGA per 2.91, 0.42ppt
Kyrie Irving - 1 FGA per 3.92, 0.30ppt (a rate that belongs more with the 2 guards than the point guards)
J.R. Smith - 1 FGA per 3.43, 0.30ppt (he's been holding back this season)

after checking out Irving, Pargo and Barea's numbers, the point guards should probably be separate:

Kemba Walker - 1 FGA per 5.55, 0.21ppt (still leading the league in touches)
Michael Carter-Williams - 1 FGA per 4.63, 0.24ppt
Brandon Knight - 1 FGA per 5.01, 0.23ppt
Tony Parker - 1 FGA per 4.94, 0.26ppt
John Wall - 1 FGA per 5.15, 0.23ppt
Isaiah Thomas - 1 FGA per 4.77, 0.27ppt

thus I also accidental found out in some Kemba Walker trivia. among players who can be called point guards and who attempt over 16 FGA per 36, he takes the least shots per touch.

as for the Waiters discussion. you can see that he takes a bit less shots than other established volume shooters and is in the Evan Turner, Tyreke Evans ball park. it seems like that if you take a shot with every 3rd touch or even more often, then you shoot the ball a whole lot. Waiters isn't there yet.

However, he plays alongside a ball-dominant Kyrie Irving who, as we can see, shoots the most often out of point guards. So I wouldn't call the evidence conclusive...

out of self interest I also wanted to check out...

Gerald Henderson - 1 FGA per 3.77, 0.30ppt

so Hendo isn't there at all, shot chucking-wise.

[LamarMatic7]

I also thought about checking out "minutes with ball in hands in the front court/field goal attempts" but I don't have the time now. it seems like that would separate the spot-up shooters and the guys who take their time before taking a shot.

but, yeah, I have to run now....

I hope you enjoyed this, Sik.

[mrknowitall215]

I call a spade a spade, and Dion Waiters is a chucker #PhillyLove

[LamarMatic7]

I call a spade a spade, and Dion Waiters is a chucker #PhillyLove

do you like my train of thought though?

[mrknowitall215]

I call a spade a spade, and Dion Waiters is a chucker #PhillyLove

do you like my train of thought though?

You did a excellent job of research & digesting the make up of a chucker. As always, I admired your effort & input

[Elden Payton]

I also thought about checking out "minutes with ball in hands in the front court/field goal attempts" but I don't have the time now. it seems like that would separate the spot-up shooters and the guys who take their time before taking a shot.

but, yeah, I have to run now....

I hope you enjoyed this, Sik.

Lamar you are amazing!

Thanks so much!

Yeah so not really a chucker, but I agree, evidence isn't conclusive due to Kyrie actually being a chucker!