ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob

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ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#1 » by MisterHibachi » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:55 pm

This is the thread for the match up of seeds 3 and 6 in the Eastern Conference of the All-Time Fantasy League.

General Discussion in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1293300
Draft was in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1294562
Playoff results in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1299878

Eastern Conference Quarterfinals: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob

(3) Quotatious
1. Kobe Byrant (07-09)
2. Alonzo Mourning (98-00)
3. Chauncey Billups (06-08)
4. Chris Mullin (90-92)
5. Lamar Odom (09-11)
6. Buck Williams (82-84)
7. Brad Miller (02-04)
8. Doug Christie (01-03)
9. Darrell Armstrong (99-01)
10. Alex English (82-84)

(6) Notanoob
1. Hakeem Olajuwon (93-95)
2. Paul Pierce (08-10)
3. Dennis Rodman (90-92)
4. Chris Bosh (08-10)
5. Vince Carter (99-01)
6. Mookie Blaylock (95-97)
7. Arron Afflalo (12-14)
8. Jason Terry (05-07)
9. Ron Artest (09-11)
10. Tree Rollins (82-84)

Judges
bastillon
TMACFORMVP: Notanoob
penbeast0: Notanoob
ronnymac2: Notanoob
Doctor MJ
SideshowBob
Texas Chuck: Notanoob
therealbig3: Notanoob

In each match up, GMs will offer their preliminary strategy for beating the other team and reasons for why their team is stronger. GMs will also have the opportunity to respond to the opponent's strategy. Judges will offer any comments and questions they have of the GMs and finally will cast their vote for whichever team they think is stronger simply by saying 'Team A wins this matchup' or 'Team B wins this matchup'. Whoever gets more votes moves on.


Good luck!
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#2 » by Texas Chuck » Mon Feb 3, 2014 10:50 pm

I vote for Notanoob because Dream is obviously >>> Kobe. Sorry Quotatious, but it couldnt be more simple or obvious.

In all seriousness Im interested to see how each guy sets his lineup/strategy for this matchup. We've seen Kobe/Truth go head to head irl and it will be interesting to me to see if either guy wants to try and get that same matchup here.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#3 » by Laimbeer » Mon Feb 3, 2014 11:56 pm

You have to like Dream a bit over Zo but I'm a Kobe slappy and not a Carter fan at all. I know Pierce is popular in these parts, but I think I like Mullins' game better in a scenario like this.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#4 » by Quotatious » Tue Feb 4, 2014 12:05 am

It's great that it's finally on the way...Honestly, I think I have an advantage on the perimeter. Carter and Pierce could really do a lot of damage, individually, but I don't think they'd be a good fit. Too similar as players. I don't really fear them, especially considering that it's a young Carter (so rookie Vince is also a part of it) and Carter often struggled in the postseason throughout his career, which is a sign of him not being great in terms of dealing with pressure. 08-10 Pierce was already past his prime athletically, and could really be slowed down by really athletic defenders. Trust me guys, if there's any player in NBA history whose career I really know, it's Paul Pierce. He was a great team player and still a very capable ISO scorer in half-court, but I'd be more worried if this was 2001-03 Pierce, or especially the 2006 version of the Truth, which was nearly unstoppable. I think that Doug Christie is about as good of a man defender as you could possibly hope for, against Carter and Pierce. He had it all as a defensive player - toughness, smarts, very solid athleticism, strength and quickness. I think he'll see a lot of playing time during that series. Motivated Kobe was also a scary defensive force, at times. He'll have an opportunity to focus a lot of his efforts on the defensive end, because of the offensive talent that's obvious all over my team.

I really love the fact that we have three premier wing players of the 2000s here - Kobe, Carter and Pierce. Both Vince and Paul have always done a very good job limiting Kobe's efficiency from the field, but Bryant is still by far the best player of the three, especially comparing the streches that we both chosen here.

Hakeem obviously has a clear advantage over Alonzo, but Mourning was a GREAT player at his peak, and I think it's actually closer than a lot of people think. I think my guys have an edge on the perimeter, and Notanoob is better inside. Should be a GREAT battle.

I'll give my gameplan probably on Wednesday, because I'm gonna be really really busy on Tuesday, and probably won't find the time necessary to take care of it.

So long.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#5 » by Notanoob » Tue Feb 4, 2014 3:29 am

Man, missing out on Michael Cooper is just going to drive me nuts. After going through Kobe's team I'm going to have to face Jordan's team? The team that stole Cooper away from me no less? Argh.

But I think I can make it, so this should be fun.

So on an individual to individual basis, I'm liking what I see so far. Outside of Kobe, I feel like I've got the better player at each starting position.

Mookie is a much better defender than Chauncey, who gets a bit of a reputation boost for being on the Pistons. Mookie was not as good of an offensive option, but he was still very efficient, with an A/TO ratio that topped out at 9.7 to 2.4. During the years I selected, he had many fewer assists, but this was because the Hawks no longer revolved around Dominique, and Mookie was asked to score by himself more. However, he's going to go back to more of his early role on the Hawks, bringing the ball up and letting the star players do the scoring. Chauncey will similarly have a small role in the offense, basically being a spot up shooter for Kobe, but Mookie is a significantly better defender. Given how they'll play, Mookie will be the better player in this series.

Hakeem clearly has the edge over Zo, there really isn't a question to it.

Buck is clearly a better rebounder than Bosh, but he'll clog up the paint since that's where he scored. He was a better defender than Bosh has been by a bit, but I don't think that Bosh has ever had fewer defensive responsibilities than he will have on my team. Plus, I'd like to point out that Buck only made the All-D teams many years later in his career than the years selected.

English could score a ton, but I don't think that he was overall a better player that Paul Pierce either. English's jumper was good, but did not stretch to the 3 point line. This is another guy who prefers to play close to the basket, although he doesn't live in the paint like Zo or Williams.

Of course, this isn't an individual vs. individual game. It's about matchups and game plans.

So to start, I'm happy to work primarily through two guys: Hakeem and Vince. Hakeem is a post up artist, who can embarrass any defender with his beautiful moves. Guys have to respect his pump-fakes from farther out too, since he could shot the J, and really do whatever he wanted. If he gets too much attention, he could and would kick the ball out. The reason I'm also going to lean on Vince is due to the matchup in particular. Kobe has gotten a lot of All-Defensive team nominations purely by reputation, and certainly wasn't playing defense as much with the Lakers in the years selected. He's sort of old at this point (not particularly, but you know, he's played a ton of minutes), and he likes to ball watch a bit and float around. He's not always engaged. Vince was an offensive force in his young days here, capable of not only knocking down threes easily, but driving and cutting up defenses, finishing with monster slams. I foresee a couple of occasions where Vince dashes behind an inattentive Kobe, gets a pass from Hakeem posting up, and finishes the play by ending the life of whatever poor sucker tries to rotate in front of him with an soul-shattering, Earth-shattering, rim-destroying, life-ending monster dunk. Poor dude might have to see a psychologist for PTSD after seeing Air Canada go nuclear on top of him.

Paul Pierce will serve as the clear 3rd option. He's also a great shooter, and very good at shaking defenders off the bounce and such. He's smart, and won't complain about not being the first option.

Bosh and Mookie will be the next two options. Both players have demonstrated that they can live practically getting frozen out on offense. Mookie spent a lot of time playing with 'Nique when it was the "slow the game down and get Nique the ball" show all game long, so he's perfectly content to be a bottom option on offense. Bosh too, he never really complained in Miami when he would get nearly no touches, so I don't have to worry about getting him the ball.

This offense works nicely in the modern age. Mookie, Vince and Pierce are all good 3 point shooters, and Bosh is a solid min-range shooter. They space the floor around Hakeem, allowing him to go to work one-on-one. Heck, even Hakeem can shoot. I can run a pretty straight forward inside-out game with this starting lineup.

On the defensive end, I feel pretty good too. Zo and Williams live in the paint, and English doesn't drag guys too far away from it either, so even if I didn't have solid defenders, I'd be able to slow guys down here. Hakeem can take on 'Zo one-on-one in the post and win, so I think that I can force TO's from this notoriously poor passer even without doubling him regularly, although since my SF and PF will be close the paint anyways, it won't be that hard to do. If Williams gets the ball, he'll have the same sort of problems. The paint will be clogged, and he's also a bad passer who is TO prone. Bosh may not be a stud defender, but he's got a size advantage on him and will be able to bother him straight up.

With the paint so clogged up, Kobe, English and Chauncey will have to essentially be jumpshooters all game. And even worse yet, among those guys only Chauncey is a real threat from 3 point range. I was a bit worried about who was guarding Kobe, but as Quotatious kindly pointed out:
Quotatious wrote:Both Vince and Paul have always done a very good job limiting Kobe's efficiency from the field
So I won't even have to worry about trying to hide the notorious Vince Carter on someone! He defended Kobe well! :P

On top of that, Mookie is an all-time great PG defender who can easily keep Chauncey uninvolved. Paul Pierce is no All-D team guy, but is a solid and heady player who can make English work. There will be no easy buckets for Quotatious' team.

You know what this does though? It encourages Kobe to shoot mid-range J's all day. He's good at that, but it's not the most efficient way to run an offense, especially when it means he's going to be freezing out a lot. I was really hoping to pull the old trick Russel would pull on Wilt in their playoff matchups. Russel would let Wilt score early on, and so the coach would have guys just feeding Wilt all game. However, his teammates would get sick of just standing around and watching Wilt do all the scoring. They wouldn't try as hard on defense because of it. Then in crunch time, Russel would turn up the defensive effort on Wilt, and if they even adjusted to Wilt not being able to score anymore, his teammates wouldn't be able to step up because they were all out of rhythm and dissatisfied anyways. This would be especially effective considering my team has an all-time great trash talker in Pierce, and two other psychos coming off the bench who would do anything to get in your head too.

Unfortunately, none of these guys really had ego issues at all. :oops: Even English, who was a big-time volume scorer, I'm unhappy to read, was in fact a pretty relaxed teammate, who didn't demand touches or anything and would work off-ball. Zo is the only guy who might get a bit frustrated, but IIRC he wasn't some headcase, so I can't really rely on ego issues crippling the team.

That said, I'm happy enough as things are. His starters are going to be forced to shoot jumpers all day, with little 3 point shooting to up their efficiency.

Going to the bench, I've got a crack team of defenders everywhere but point guard. Rodman is a candidate for GOAT defender, slightly older Artest is still a force, Tree was a monster shot-blocker and Afflalo is a great hustle guy. I feel like he more deserves a D-team spot than Kobe over the last few years, but he never had the name to get on those teams, and he's not able to give as much effort on that side of the ball as a first option in Orlando. However, I'm slipping him back into his role-player days. He'll play good defense and shoot 3's all day.

JET will serve as the 6th man, like he did in real life. In the years I selected, he was knocking down 3's easily, shooting 42.3%. He'll be great at sparking the offense and spacing the floor like he does in real life. Afflalo's a good option too; he's capable of shooting from anywhere and has added a solid post game and passing to his arsenal. Artest was just above league average as a 3 point shooter in the years I selected, so you'll at least have to make like you respect his shooting. Rodman only provides boards and picks on offense, and Tree has no real scoring game either, but I don't plan on using Tree that often. I might role out some ultra-big lineup of Tree/Dream/Rodman/Pierce/Mookie just to play bully-ball for a little while. More often than that, I'll be running Bosh/Rodman/Artest/Afflalo/JET. With them, I can run a defense like Miami's, with Rodman and Artest being an upgraded version of LeBron/Battier. When Miami's healthy and playing hard, the defense is very effective and forces turnovers. Even if Quotatious tries to take advantage of Bosh guarding Zo, I can easily double him with my mobile forwards and force him to cough up the ball.

Obviously I've got to fill out my rotations and look at his bench some more, just some opening thoughts here.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#6 » by Quotatious » Wed Feb 5, 2014 12:21 pm

Okay, I finally found a while to read about everything that my opponent has decided to do, and even though he's got a GREAT team, I think mine ain't too shabby, either.

First of all, here's my rotation and desired shot distribution:

Minutes:

C - Alonzo 33/Miller 15
PF - Buck 26/Odom 22
SF - English 28/Mullin 14/Christie 6
SG -Kobe 28/Mullin 14/Christie 6
PG - Billups 30/Armstrong 11/Kobe 7

Shots:

Kobe 19-21
English 14-16
Mullin 13-15
Mourning 10-12
Billups 8-10

Odom 6
Buck 6
Armstrong 5-6
Miller 4
Christie - open shots, opportunity baskets (no set plays run for him)

Total: About 89-91 FGA

Kobe is obviously my first offensive option, English is second, Mullin third (though Mullin is coming off the bench here), Zo 4th (basically third, if you only count starters, because I don't envision any lineups with Zo/English/Mullin/Kobe together on the court at the same time - one of my three wings will always be sitting on the bench and resting, while the other two wreak havoc on the court), and Billups is my 5th option. Kobe and Billups are my primary ballhandlers (when Billups is on the bench, Darrell Armstrong becomes the second ballhandler).

Obviously shot attempts will vary depending on what the opposing defense gives us, but you can get a general grasp of my team based on that. I want to rely on my perimeter guys (English/Kobe/Billups, Mullin/Kobe/Billups or English/Mullin/Billups, that is) to play a finesse game based on their individual skills and a lot of off-ball movement and searching for openings in the opposing defense). All of my perimeter players are EXCELLENT without the ball, all of them can handle the ball and make plays, and all are also more than capable in terms of executing the catch & shoot, or hand-off plays.
Alonzo is obviously going to have a few plays ran for him, and these plays are going to be based on him getting a really deep inside position, especially cutting to the middle, using his strength advantage over Hakeem. I don't really want Zo to put the ball on the floor, because Hakeem had extremely quick hands and great defensive instincts, so it'd likely result in quite a few turnovers. I also want to limit Alonzo's touches and his overall offensive role on my team, because the absolute LAST thing I should think of is letting him go at it wth Olajuwon...He's not going to win this battle for us this way...I also DON'T want Zo to make too many passes out of the low post. I want him to limit the amount of passes he makes to the absolute minimum (that is, if he's double teamed, or someone is blatantly wide-open in a situation when he has a possibility to throw a simple, straight pass). I also want Zo to give a few hand-offs to Alex English, Kobe, Mullin or Billups for easy pull up jumpers. Alonzo can create separation between them and their defender that way, because of his strength, and he won't be at risk of turning the ball over this way. I DON'T want to see him or Buck Williams passing to cutters, that's Lamar Odom's and Brad Miller's job. I want Mourning to be very aggressive and physical against Hakeem in terms of backing down. As strong as Olajuwon was, Zo was even stronger, and I want him to utilize this strength advantage here. Mourning could make jump hooks (particularly with his right hand), turnaround jumpers and fadeaways fairly consistently, but I'm not gonna let him take more than 3 or 4 of these shots during the game, because these are NOT a high percentage shots. I want to see Zo keeping it simple, and throwing down alley-oops when possible. He was a black hole in the middle, so I don't want to see him turning the ball over with overly complicated moves.

My team is going to depend on Mourning as a defensive anchor, so I want him to conserve energy for defense, and thus he'll only be my fourth offensive option. Obviously, it DOESN'T mean that I'm going to let Zo defend Hakeem 1 on 1, oh no, it'd be a suicide. No one, perhaps except Shaq, could really contain Olajuwon in the post 1 on 1, as evident by the 1995 Finals, when Olajuwon's efficiency wasn't too good in post up situations against O'Neal.

Hakeem and Zo actually had really similar strengths defensively, and their strength/athleticism/mobility and high bball IQ combination made them DPOY contenders on a yearly basis.

Obviously, Hakeem was such a versatile offensive performer that there really isn't much to be done against him defensively, but I want Zo to stay focused and don't buy his pump fakes. I'd rather see Olajuwon taking a jumper than taking it to the hoop. He was a pretty good jumpshooter, but Mourning's length and reflexes could make it a bit difficult for him to convert on his attempts from the elbow.

Mourning was better than Olajuwon in terms of drawing fouls, because of his more physical and aggressive style of play, and the gap was even bigger in the postseason. I want to take advantage of it, and let Zo be as aggressive as he possibly can in terms of getting the ball to the rim. As I said - I want him to establish a deep position (especially after cutting to the basket from outside of the paint), catch the ball, and try to finish at the rim or draw a foul. Obviously Olajuwon was a very disruptive defender with his great hands, and that's why I want Zo to get Hakeem on his back and catch the ball when there's no danger of being stripped. Zo had really wide shoulders and he was extremely strong all over his body, so there should be a good chance that he can make it happen.

Hakeem is certainly the focal point of my gameplan, so let's take a look at the defensive side of the court. Here, I want my guys to provide help on Hakeem down low, but only if he gets closer than 15 feet from the basket. Otherwise, I'd rather not see Notanoob's shooters getting an opportunity to shoot a wide open three pointer. Kobe was a fantastic help defender (and man defender, too), when motivated, and I have the version of Kobe that did an absolutely GREAT job helping down low on Howard in the 2009 finals. Obviously Hakeem dealt with double teams much better than Dwight, and that's why you'll see less doubles here (but certainly still a lot, I don't want to let Hakeem go berserk agianst my squad).

I'll continue my gameplan in the next post.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#7 » by Quotatious » Wed Feb 5, 2014 12:56 pm

Mainly, I'm going to play an offense similar to the Run TMC Warriors, the modification being a larger role for my post players, particularly Mourning. As I've mentioned in the previous response, that means a lot of player movement and ball movement, and changing everything on the perimeter on offense. I'll try a mixed-up approach in the offensive end. My offense is going to come mainly from my perimeter guys, all of whom are very versatile and really efficient as scorers. Kobe and English were over 57% TS over the three years stretches that I've chosen, Billups was over 60%TS, and Mullin was 61.5%TS. On a sidenote, Alonzo sits at almost 59% TS in the regular season, and over 55% in the playoffs. It's not like any of these guys were some random 10-15 PPG borderline starters...All of these guys were the 1st, or 2nd options of their respective teams, and averaged way over 20 PPG, or close to it, and all of my stars can create their own shot (except Zo, to a degree, but that's not a must for a center). To me, that's a guarantee that my team is NOT going to struggle offensively, and that there will always be someone to count on, if one, or even two of my stars, are struggling individually. Offense comes from so many sources, pretty much all over my roster.

As far as defense goes, I want to go man-to-man. Only Hakeem is going to be double teamed. Notanoob's team has too many good shooters to play any kind of zone against them. Kobe guards Carter, English on Pierce, and obviously Billups on Blaylock, and Buck on Bosh. Doug Christie is going to get quite a few opporunities to guard either Carter or Pierce, depending who plays better. My guess is that I'm going to use him more against Carter.

Lamar Odom, and to a lesser degree, Brad Miller, are also going to be a big part of my offensive schemes, because I want to play Princeton, or flex, type offense with my second unit (bench five). Chris Mullin is going to be a huge part of it. I have two former Sacremento Kings - Brad Miller and Doug Christie, who actually played in that system, and I think that Mullin and Odom are also TAILOR MADE for this type of offense. This will help my team to deal more effectively with Hakeem's presence in the middle - constant movement and a lot of passing will force him to go outside of the paint A LOT, and when you consider that both Odom and Miller can shoot from pretty much any distance (including the 3 point land), as well as pass the ball from the high post to the cutters, it makes my team that much more flexible, offensively.

I also want to play some triangle offense for certain stretches, when Odom is on the floor together with my starting perimeter players (and there'll be quite a few opportunities for him to do so). Odom gets the ball in the high post and takes a glance around the perimeter, looking for Kobe or Billups. Then one of them (preferably Kobe) takes the ball from him, my center (preferably Alonzo) sets a screen, coming from the weak side of the floor, and Kobe either pulls up for an open jumper (Mourning is one of the GOAT screen setters in the NBA, with his strength and tenacity), takes to the ball to rim, or passes to: a) Alonzo cutting to the basket after a screen for a dunk, b) passes out to either Odom or Billups, because one of them is inevitably going to be open when the opposing team is disoriented after the unorthodox pick being set by Zo. Odom can also set the first screen, and then Mourning comes to the high post to set the second screen. As I said - Mourning rolls to the basket, and Odom stays in the high post, or retreats to the 3 point line.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#8 » by Quotatious » Wed Feb 5, 2014 1:59 pm

Now, I'll address some of the things said by my much esteemed opponent. :)
Notanoob wrote:Mookie is a much better defender than Chauncey, who gets a bit of a reputation boost for being on the Pistons. Mookie was not as good of an offensive option, but he was still very efficient, with an A/TO ratio that topped out at 9.7 to 2.4. During the years I selected, he had many fewer assists, but this was because the Hawks no longer revolved around Dominique, and Mookie was asked to score by himself more. However, he's going to go back to more of his early role on the Hawks, bringing the ball up and letting the star players do the scoring. Chauncey will similarly have a small role in the offense, basically being a spot up shooter for Kobe, but Mookie is a significantly better defender. Given how they'll play, Mookie will be the better player in this series.

Mookie was a very good player, great defender, but honestly, he was closer to my backup point guard - Darrell Armstrong, than to Billups. :wink: Seriously, their numbers in during the stretches that we've chosen are pretty similar. I'm not really afraid of Mookie. He'll force two or three turnovers, which is valuable in itself, but he was NOT a relevant scoring threat at this level of competition. His playoff decline in terms of scoring speaks for itself. His best 3 point shooting seasons came when the 3 point line was actually shortened, and his percentages really weren't consistently on the same level before or after that.
Billups was a very low mistake player, rarely turned the ball over, so I don't think that he'll be significantly affected by Mookie's pressure defense. He's also not going to handle the ball nearly as much as he did with the Pistons.
I admit that Mookie was a pain in the ass with his pressure D, but NBA all-star/superstar point guards are good enough ballhandlers not to let him take the best of them.

No, Billups isn't going to be just a spot-up shooter for Kobe. He'll do it, but Kobe will also be a spot up shooter for him, at times. I plan to keep their ballhandling duties fairly even, but Bryant will obviously have his ISO plays, so it that sense, he'll do more ballhandling than Chauncey.

I want to take advantage of Billups' size and post-up ability and let him abuse the 6 feet tall Blaylock in the post.
Notanoob wrote:Hakeem clearly has the edge over Zo, there really isn't a question to it.

You're right thay he has the edge, but Mourning is about as good opponent for Hakeem as you could possibly hope for here, especially if he's mainly focused on defense. I want Alonzo to be aggressive and try to draw a foul or two against Hakeem. I'd say that Olajuwon's edge over Mourning is about the same as Kobe's advantage over Carter. It evens out, more or less.
Notanoob wrote:Buck is clearly a better rebounder than Bosh, but he'll clog up the paint since that's where he scored. He was a better defender than Bosh has been by a bit, but I don't think that Bosh has ever had fewer defensive responsibilities than he will have on my team. Plus, I'd like to point out that Buck only made the All-D teams many years later in his career than the years selected.

Buck was on a very similar level defensively even as a young player. The reason why his All-Defensive selections came later on in his career is because he was one of the top offensive players on his team early on, and couldn't apply as much effort on defense, but he still gave A LOT of effort, and I went with the younger version of him because of superior athleticism and rebounding ability. Zo was a pretty solid rebounder, but not a dominant one, so I needed someone like Buck to provide great rebounding next to him. Besides, Buck Williams played for Larry Brown in the beginning of his career, so as a Piston fan yourself, I'm sure that you know how much Larry Brown demands from his players in terms of effort and commitment to playing defense. :wink: Buck is still one of the, if not THE favorite player of Larry Brown, and that's pretty damn impressive considering how many great players he coached during his career as an NBA head coach. I'm sure that penbeast0 would provide some great insight on that. :wink:

Chris Bosh would have a very bad series against my team, because other than Buck, I also have Lamar Odom, who is a nightmarish matchup for the Boshasaurus. Bosh's numbers are WAY below his career stats in his matchups against Odom - he doesn't even average 16 PPG, and shoots 43% from the field...Odom has all the tools to be effective against Bosh, defensively - length, quickness and he's Bosh's equal in terms of strength.
Notanoob wrote:English could score a ton, but I don't think that he was overall a better player that Paul Pierce either. English's jumper was good, but did not stretch to the 3 point line. This is another guy who prefers to play close to the basket, although he doesn't live in the paint like Zo or Williams.

English was a very consistent 18/20 feet jumpshooter, and it was actually a good shot for him. We talk about the long 2s being the worst shot in basketball, and it certainly makes a lot of sense, but English's release point was basically impossible to even bother, let alone block. You can just hope that he misses. English has a pretty decent athleticism advantage over Pierce, but Paul was much stronger than him, and he can play Alex close and not let his create too much off the bounce, because English was a pretty average ballhandler for a wing. Fortunately, he'll mostly live off the ball here.
Notanoob wrote:finishes the play by ending the life of whatever poor sucker tries to rotate in front of him with an soul-shattering, Earth-shattering, rim-destroying, life-ending monster dunk. Poor dude might have to see a psychologist for PTSD after seeing Air Canada go nuclear on top of him.

I chuckled, I gotta admit that. :D
Notanoob wrote:On the defensive end, I feel pretty good too. Zo and Williams live in the paint, and English doesn't drag guys too far away from it either, so even if I didn't have solid defenders, I'd be able to slow guys down here.

As I said, English was a GREAT midrange shooter out to 20 feet, and he didn't really live in the paint. He's not Dominique Wilkins or Adrian Dantley. Zo had a pretty decent jumper out to 15-17 feet, and could knock it down if defended too loosely.
Notanoob wrote:Hakeem can take on 'Zo one-on-one in the post and win, so I think that I can force TO's from this notoriously poor passer even without doubling him regularly, although since my SF and PF will be close the paint anyways, it won't be that hard to do. If Williams gets the ball, he'll have the same sort of problems. The paint will be clogged, and he's also a bad passer who is TO prone. Bosh may not be a stud defender, but he's got a size advantage on him and will be able to bother him straight up.

As I've mentioned earlier, I don't want to let Alonzo go at it with the Dream 1 on 1. It would be the worst thing imaginable, from my perspective.
Notanoob wrote:And even worse yet, among those guys only Chauncey is a real threat from 3 point range.

Kobe isn't a 3 point threat? :o I know his percentages aren't great, but he could get extremely hot from there at times, and he's still a 35% 3 point shooter, which is pretty decent. You also can't really guard Kobe, he can make threes with a hand in his face. I gotta admit that Afflalo is a pretty good defender against him, tho. 2009-11 Artest doesn't put fear into me, I'm a little more worried about Afflalo.
Mullin, Christie and Armstrong are all 3 point threats off the pine. Well, Mullin is basically the sixth starter here, so he'll see a lot of playing time.
Notanoob wrote:So I won't even have to worry about trying to hide the notorious Vince Carter on someone! He defended Kobe well! :P

Yep, but Kobe still has 8 of the top 10 scoring games between them, including three 40 point outings...Kobe vs Carter or Pierce is still a very favorable matchup for me.
Notanoob wrote:You know what this does though? It encourages Kobe to shoot mid-range J's all day. He's good at that, but it's not the most efficient way to run an offense, especially when it means he's going to be freezing out a lot. I was really hoping to pull the old trick Russel would pull on Wilt in their playoff matchups. Russel would let Wilt score early on, and so the coach would have guys just feeding Wilt all game. However, his teammates would get sick of just standing around and watching Wilt do all the scoring. They wouldn't try as hard on defense because of it. Then in crunch time, Russel would turn up the defensive effort on Wilt, and if they even adjusted to Wilt not being able to score anymore, his teammates wouldn't be able to step up because they were all out of rhythm and dissatisfied anyways. This would be especially effective considering my team has an all-time great trash talker in Pierce, and two other psychos coming off the bench who would do anything to get in your head too.

You can't get into Kobe's head like you can in Wilt's. Besides, I'm not gonna rely on Kobe to chuck up 25-30 shots a game here...He'll have to play it nicely with my other 25 PPG scorers. I think he'd be willing to do it as long as he was the #1 option on offense, especially if you take notice about 2007 being part of the stretch that I chose, and Kobe's frustration with his teammates was at the all-time highest level at this point.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#9 » by whitehops » Wed Feb 5, 2014 7:37 pm

qoutatious are you going to run three offenses or run one offense and mix in a couple other offensive sets?
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#10 » by O_6 » Wed Feb 5, 2014 8:21 pm

C - Alonzo 33/Miller 15
PF - Buck 26/Odom 22
SF - English 28/Mullin 14/Christie 6
SG -Kobe 28/Mullin 14/Christie 6
PG - Billups 30/Armstrong 11/Kobe 7

Shots:

Kobe 16-18
English 16
Mullin 14-16
Mourning 10-12
Billups 8-10


So if I have this right...

Mullin -- 15 FGA in 28 MPG
English -- 16 FGA in 28 MPG
Kobe -- 17 FGA in 35 MPG

Since one of English/Mullin will be on the floor at all times, what you're basically saying is that Mullin and English will both take more shots than Kobe while they share the floor with him.

I just don't think that's likely, hell I don't think it's possible. I could see Kobe defer to MJ or Hakeem, but I can't see him willingly defer to Mullin and English.

I think at the very least the shot distribution would look more like 19/15/14 than 17/16/15. I think Kobe would be the clear #1 scoring option on this team.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#11 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Feb 5, 2014 8:25 pm

Notanoob wrote:Obviously I've got to fill out my rotations and look at his bench some more, just some opening thoughts here.



Given any additional thought to this yet?
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#12 » by Notanoob » Thu Feb 6, 2014 3:09 am

Quotatious wrote:Mookie was a very good player, great defender, but honestly, he was closer to my backup point guard - Darrell Armstrong, than to Billups. :wink: Seriously, their numbers in during the stretches that we've chosen are pretty similar. I'm not really afraid of Mookie. He'll force two or three turnovers, which is valuable in itself, but he was NOT a relevant scoring threat at this level of competition. His playoff decline in terms of scoring speaks for itself. His best 3 point shooting seasons came when the 3 point line was actually shortened, and his percentages really weren't consistently on the same level before or after that.
Billups was a very low mistake player, rarely turned the ball over, so I don't think that he'll be significantly affected by Mookie's pressure defense. He's also not going to handle the ball nearly as much as he did with the Pistons.
I admit that Mookie was a pain in the ass with his pressure D, but NBA all-star/superstar point guards are good enough ballhandlers not to let him take the best of them.

No, Billups isn't going to be just a spot-up shooter for Kobe. He'll do it, but Kobe will also be a spot up shooter for him, at times. I plan to keep their ballhandling duties fairly even, but Bryant will obviously have his ISO plays, so it that sense, he'll do more ballhandling than Chauncey.

I want to take advantage of Billups' size and post-up ability and let his abuse the 6 feet tall Blaylock in the post.
Oh, Chauncey is my man, really. I love him to death. In generally, I'd take Chauncey. He really is the better player, I just got to talk my guys up a bit. It's just that his defense is a bit overrated, and in game Chauncey will have a reduced role compared to what he had during his prime, mitigating his clear offensive edge a bit. Mookie is a much better PG defender than him, so for this game Mookie is fairly close to him.

Quotatious wrote:Buck was on a very similar level defensively even as a young player. The reason why his All-Defensive selections came later on in his career is because he was one of the top offensive players on his team early on, and couldn't apply as much effort on defense, but he still gave A LOT of effort, and I went with the younger version of him because of superior athleticism and rebounding ability. Zo was a pretty solid rebounder, but not a dominant one, so I needed someone like Buck to provide great rebounding next to him. Besides, Buck Williams played for Larry Brown in the beginning of his career, so as a Piston fan yourself, I'm sure that you know how much Larry Brown demands from his players in terms of effort and commitment to playing defense. :wink: Buck is still one of the, if not THE favorite player of Larry Brown, and that's pretty damn impressive considering how many great players he coached during his career as an NBA head coach. I'm sure that penbeast0 would provide some great insight on that. :wink:
I'll be honest, I really didn't know if Williams got better as a defender and earned those All-D teams, or if he was always about that good but didn't get recognition one way or another. I kind of expected you to fill me in.

Quotatious wrote:Chris Bosh would have a very bad series against my team, because other than Buck, I also have Lamar Odom, who is a nightmarish matchup for the Boshasaurus. Bosh's numbers are WAY below his career stats in his matchups against Odom - he doesn't even average 16 PPG, and shoots 43% from the field...Odom has all the tools to be effective against Bosh, defensively - length, quickness and he's Bosh's equal in terms of strength.
Yeah, Bosh is going to be seeing very little of the ball, he'll essentially play defense, work hard on the boards and spread the floor. No point in trying to get Bosh to score, especially when he doesn't care if it helps the team.

Quotatious wrote:English was a very consistent 18/20 feet jumpshooter, and it was actually a good shot for him. We talk about the long 2s being the worst shot in basketball, and it certainly makes a lot of sense, but English's release point was basically impossible to even bother, let alone block. You can just hope that he misses. English has a pretty decent athleticism advantage over Pierce, but Paul was much stronger than him, and he can play Alex close and not let his create too much off the bounce, because English was a pretty average ballhandler for a wing. Fortunately, he'll mostly live off the ball here.
I prefer jump-shooting to layups, that's for sure, even with a good jump-shooter. Pierce will just have to contest his shot as much as he can. Still, that's 10 feet closer to the paint than most of the SFs I'll face will force him to be.

Quotatious wrote:As I said, English was a GREAT midrange shooter out to 20 feet, and he didn't really live in the paint. He's not Dominique Wilkins or Adrian Dantley. Zo had a pretty decent jumper out to 15-17 feet, and could knock it down if defended too loosely.
No one was Dantley really. That dude was an absurd scorer, it's really amazing when you look at what he did-scoring so easily on such high usage. It's odd that he never seemed to raise his team much despite being so dominant. But in any event, English may not be a post-up forward, but he's not giving you the same kind of spacing that seems required in today's NBA with 3 point shooters.

Quotatious wrote:Kobe isn't a 3 point threat? :o I know his percentages aren't great, but he could get extremely hot from there at times, and he's still a 35% 3 point shooter, which is pretty decent. You also can't really guard Kobe, he can make threes with a hand in his face. I gotta admit that Afflalo is a pretty good defender against him, tho. 2009-11 Artest doesn't put fear into me, I'm a little more worried about Afflalo.
Mullin, Christie and Armstrong are all 3 point threats off the pine. Well, Mullin is basically the sixth starter here, so he'll see a lot of playing time.
Kobe is just a bit below average as a 3 point shooter. I won't be leaving him unguarded and dare him to shoot, but it's probably the least efficient way he scores the ball.

I love me some Arron Afflalo. I'm so freaking mad at Joe Dumars. Even if he didn't sign Josh Smith (disaster), I'd still be mad at him for letting him walk. I'm sure I wasn't the only guy who saw something in him.

Yeah, looking at it, you're bench looks pretty solid. But you're starting lineup, which will be playing plenty, is lacking for spacing.

Quotatious wrote:Yep, but Kobe still has 8 of the top 10 scoring games between them, including three 40 point outings...Kobe vs Carter or Pierce is still a very favorable matchup for me.
I can't imagine it wouldn't be. He'll get his, I was pretty sure of that going into this game.

Quotatious wrote:You can't get into Kobe's head like you can in Wilt's. Besides, I'm not gonna rely on Kobe to chuck up 25-30 shots a game here...He'll have to play it nicely with my other 25 PPG scorers. I think he'd be willing to do it as long as he was the #1 option on offense, especially if you take notice about 2007 being part of the stretch that I chose, and Kobe's frustration with his teammates was at the all-time highest level at this point.
Yeah, I figured that the mental part of this game wouldn't work like it would against Wilt. Heck, Jordan was more susceptible to people getting in his head, he was just so good that he dominated anyways. But like others here have said, Kobe's going to need a few more FGAs than you're giving him to count on him being happy. He can share, but he still has to be the clear #1.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#13 » by Notanoob » Thu Feb 6, 2014 4:35 am

Texas Chuck wrote:Given any additional thought to this yet?

Yes, I'm sorry that I haven't finished up here yet. I've just had a busy few days, school and a job interview among them.

So yeah, about his bench. I'll be honest, it's pretty good. Heck, I'd be starting Odom and Mullin in this series.

I can't say that I know much about Armstrong, but he doesn't look to be a big deal. 6th man once, but that's about it. Not a good 3 point shooter, doesn't have any defensive honors...he looks like a regular backup PG. Not a big deal.

Christie and Mullin are a pair of wins who I'll have to respect. Mullin only shot around 35% from 3, which is odd because I remember him as being a better shooter than that. Christie shot a much better 37%, but also could play real good defense. Thankfully, neither of my backup wings should worry too much. Afflalo will not be doing to much on offense, regardless of Christie defending him; same with Artest. They'll basically be spot up shooters who play hard-nosed defense. Maybe Afflalo will post up Mullin if the opportunity arises, but it's not going to have a significant impact on the series either way. They're both more than capable of containing their man, although Mullin will give pretty much all of my wings a bit of trouble. Afflalo will have to guard him if he isn't already on Kobe, since he's the spriest of my wings who play defense.

On offense, I feel no need to push harder match ups. If Christie is out there on Vince, then there's no need to make Vince work hard when he's got Hakeem and Pierce to do some scoring for them. I'm perfectly comfortably with Pierce ISOing Mullin.

Odom is just a pain. Really solid and versatile player, thank goodness he's not a sniper from deep. Still, Bosh focusing mostly on defense isn't going to be getting torched, and Rodman will be happy to shut him down.

That's really the great thing though. With versatile guys backing up 2-4, I can throw a great defender on anyone whenever I need to. Odom giving me trouble? He won't be giving Rodman trouble. Mullin getting hot? Artest can goon it up with him, same with Afflalo.

Miller is a great passer for a C, but man would Hakeem or Bosh abuse him on offense. Unless he's a better defender than I think he is?

But our benches appear to be opposites. He's got all these nice passers who like to finesse their way through a game, while I've got a squad of mean-arse brawlers. Rodman and Artest are known psycho's, Rollins tried to bite Danny Ainge's finger off for a little hip-check, and Afflalo is a tough defender. If we ever have bench-vs-bench going on, it'll be my guys trying to beat the tar out of them. Great ball movement and smarts only gets you so far with a bunch of guys who play defense like my bench. JET is the only weak defender in this group, but he's only facing Armstrong. Tree is no DPOY but he was averaging over 4 blocks a game one season; he can protect the paint nicely with his size and length.

If it comes down to it, I can just have Artest start a fight with Kobe late in game 7. Give him a black eye and force him to the bench. Artest won't care. What's that, a one game suspension? Worth it to move on. :devil: Pierce and Rodman can handle the minutes.

Anyways, I'm done rambling there, let's move on.

Mookie (how'd he get such a cool nickname? Anyone know? Oh yeah, he gets 28 minutes)/ JET (20)
Vince (35)/ Afflalo (13)
Pierce (34)/ Artest (10)/ Rodman (4)
Bosh (28)/ Rodman (20)
Hakeem (36)/Bosh (8)/ Rollins (4)

I'm curious to hear other people's opinions on this, but I can't wait to go to sleep. Night y'all.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#14 » by Quotatious » Thu Feb 6, 2014 9:00 am

whitehops wrote:qoutatious are you going to run three offenses or run one offense and mix in a couple other offensive sets?

It depends on the lineup that I have on the floor. I'll mix my approach to make my team more unpredictable. I realize that I have to keep it fairly simple, so my guys can remember all the plays and execute though, so there are some limitations to how far I can go with that. Princeton is my go-to strategy when I have my second unit (with Mullin) on the floor (it wouldn't be for very long tho, because they won't see that much playing time here - gotta give my starters some 'starter-like' playing time to keep them happy :wink: ). I'll try some triangle sets when Odom (or Brad Miller, to a lesser degree) is on the court with Kobe and Billups, or Kobe and Mullin, or Mullin and Billups. Kobe and Odom proved that they could do it very well, and Mullin is kind of a point forward (though he rarely played in this role, just didn't have a coach or teammates who would've needed him to do it), with really versatile offensive game and great passing ability (he was like Manu, or even Bird - his APG numbers don't reflect his actual ability, because of the role that he had on his team), so he should fit right into my team concept.

My main stretegy on offense though, will be to change everything on the perimeter at any given time, depending on how Notanoob's defense is reacting to my offense, and use screens (I'm gonna depend mainly on Mourning and Miller to set those) to get open. Then my perimeters players can either shoot open midrange J, or pass out to someone else, if the pick wasn't ultra-effective. As I said, Zo/Buck can roll to the basket, and Odom/Miller can spot up for a jumper in pick & pop situations. Miller can play the same role as Pau Gasol on the Lakers in terms of running the pick & pop with Kobe. I want use him a lot in this role though, as you can see by him expected shot attempts. He'll be really valuable as a set-up man from the high post. The same with Lamar Odom. It helps than Odom can also put the ball on floor, and play a little point forward, though this also won't be the main role for him. With Rodman (presumably) covering him, it's not a good idea to let Odom handle the ball. If Bosh defends him, then it's okay.
O_6 wrote:So if I have this right...

Mullin -- 15 FGA in 28 MPG
English -- 16 FGA in 28 MPG
Kobe -- 17 FGA in 35 MPG

Since one of English/Mullin will be on the floor at all times, what you're basically saying is that Mullin and English will both take more shots than Kobe while they share the floor with him.

I just don't think that's likely, hell I don't think it's possible. I could see Kobe defer to MJ or Hakeem, but I can't see him willingly defer to Mullin and English.

I think at the very least the shot distribution would look more like 19/15/14 than 17/16/15. I think Kobe would be the clear #1 scoring option on this team.

You're right, and I expected someone to point it out. I just thought that my reasoning would sway some people to my idea about limiting Kobe's shots to 16-18...Ehh, knowing Kobe's stubbornness, I gotta boost his attempts a bit...The thing I want to do is to keep him at most at 20 FGA per game, and that's what I'll do here.
So, I'll edit my last response, and try to prevent my team from beating itself... :lol:

Now Kobe's at 19-21 shots, English 14-16, and Mullin 13-15. Seriously, it's not an easy job to be able to allocate an appropriate number of shots to all of my scorers, and to make sure that I don't marginalize anyone...Kobe's freedom offensively and his amount shots in particular, is a very delicate matter to deal with, to put it nicely...
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#15 » by Quotatious » Thu Feb 6, 2014 10:21 am

Notanoob wrote:I can't say that I know much about Armstrong, but he doesn't look to be a big deal. 6th man once, but that's about it. Not a good 3 point shooter, doesn't have any defensive honors...he looks like a regular backup PG. Not a big deal.

Defense is one of the main reasons why I've chosen him. He was like a poor man's Mookie on defense, or kinda like Mike Conley. Extremely quick hands (averaged over two steals per game in the first two seasons during the stretch that I chosen, and 1.8 SPG in the third season). He played with incredible amount of energy and hustled his tail off all the time. In fact, him and other Orlando Magic role player Bo Outlaw were known at the time as the Heart & Hustle duo. He sure deserved some All-D consideration, but there was some really great competition for it at the time, and him not exactly being a big name certainly didn't help when he had to compete with guys like Payton, Kidd, young Kobe, Eddie Jones, Doug Christie...He was also a very productive and reasonably efficient offensive player, His shot a little over 35% from beyond the arc, on almost 5 attempts per game from there...Basically the same as Kobe. During the season when he won the 6th Man of the Year award, he had PER over 22, and he has 19.7 PER over the 3-year stretch. Averaged 15.5 PPG on 54.6% TS in 33 minutes. He was a 90% FT shooter. Honestly, I don't see how Jason Terry is a better player than him.
Notanoob wrote:Christie and Mullin are a pair of wins who I'll have to respect. Mullin only shot around 35% from 3, which is odd because I remember him as being a better shooter than that. Christie shot a much better 37%, but also could play real good defense. Thankfully, neither of my backup wings should worry too much. Afflalo will not be doing to much on offense, regardless of Christie defending him; same with Artest. They'll basically be spot up shooters who play hard-nosed defense. Maybe Afflalo will post up Mullin if the opportunity arises, but it's not going to have a significant impact on the series either way. They're both more than capable of containing their man, although Mullin will give pretty much all of my wings a bit of trouble. Afflalo will have to guard him if he isn't already on Kobe, since he's the spriest of my wings who play defense.

On offense, I feel no need to push harder match ups. If Christie is out there on Vince, then there's no need to make Vince work hard when he's got Hakeem and Pierce to do some scoring for them. I'm perfectly comfortably with Pierce ISOing Mullin.

Mullin was at his best in the early 90s, and the 3 point shot wasn't really that popular by that time just yet. Only 2.2 attempts per game from beyond the arc. He didn't shoot too many of those, but he was an absolute killer from the midrange area, and from the charity stripe. He was just like Larry BIrd - he began shooting more threes, and on a better percentage (45% at one point in the mid 90s), later in his career. I couldn't take the version with over 40% from deep because he didn't play nearly enough games in those seasons, and the Pacers version of Mullin was way worse, long past his prime. That being said, Mullin got All-NBA consideration all three years during this timespan - 3rd, 2nd and even first team in 1992, he also finished 6th in the MVP voting in '92, and obviously was also a member of the 1992 Dream Team. I have to feel good about having the '90-'92 version of Mully. Make no mistake, both him and Alex English were elite players in the NBA. Top 10, during the strongest era in NBA history.

Your great man defenders - Afflalo is good, I admit, and I also love him as a player. As a matter of fact, I think he's a clearly better player than DeRozan, and deserved his All-Star spot, but I can easily understand the reasoning for taking DMDR - he plays on a 0.500% team, and Afflalo plays for a lottery team.

Artest, though, clearly wasn't the same player by the time that he got to LA. He was washed-up. Even in Houston, he hit the ground hard once the playoffs started. He shot 40% from deep on 5.5 attempts in the regular season, but not even 28% in the postseason...Something tells me that he just didn't deal well with pressure. He could still give some good effort defensively, but I'm not scared about him, at least in a strictly basketball-related way. His inner psycho is always dangerous. :lol: I'd much more concerned if this way the mid 2000s version of Artest, especially his Indiana days.

Pistons Rodman is a handful to deal with tho, I admit. I see that he'll only play half a game tho, so it's not that big of an issue. Still, seems like Alex English will do better exclusively as an off ball player here...He can draw some fouls on Rodman, at least, when the Worm gets irritated about not being able to bother English's jumper without fouling.
Notanoob wrote:Odom is just a pain. Really solid and versatile player, thank goodness he's not a sniper from deep. Still, Bosh focusing mostly on defense isn't going to be getting torched, and Rodman will be happy to shut him down.

Yeah, I'm really happy about having Odom on my team. There won't be much for Rodman or Artest to shut down tho, because Odom won't try to take them off the dribble. He'll mainly shoot spot up jumpers from midrange, and maybe open threes, if there's such possibility. His role will be to set other guys up with his great passing ability.
Notanoob wrote:Miller is a great passer for a C, but man would Hakeem or Bosh abuse him on offense. Unless he's a better defender than I think he is?

He was a solid man defender with good strength. IMO he would do a decent job against Bosh in the post, but Chris is too quick for him, so I won't try this matchup. Buck and Odom are my defenders against Bosh. Brad will try to stay in front of Hakeem. Obviously there's an immediate double team on Olajuwon in such situations, especially coming from Mookie's defender, because he's the worst shooter of your main wing players. Miller can give Hakeem some trouble by taking him away from the basket, and either shooting a midrange jumper (he was an excellent shooter for a center), or passing to a cutter (mainly Alex English, or maybe Kobe), when Hakeem isn't anywhere near to block their shot inside. Bosh isn't really a shotblocker, so I'm not afraid about him providing help defense.

Besides, your man defenders won't be as effective here as they were in the normal NBA game, because my motion offense will make it tough for your guys to stay in front of Kobe, English, Mullin, Billups, or whoever roams around the perimeter, looking for openings.

Notanoob wrote:Give him a black eye and force him to the bench. Artest won't care. What's that, a one game suspension? Worth it to move on. :devil:

What?! Man, you're trying to force Kobe freakin' Bryant to the bench with a BLACK EYE? :lol: It'd at least take a concussion to take him away from the game, and even that might not be enough. :D He's one of the toughest SOB's around. The amount of injuries that he can play through is only rivaled by select few players in NBA history - Iverson, West, Bird, Mikan...I don't know who else might've been tougher. Maybe Michael? Well, someone said about Jordan that you'd have to break his arms and legs to keep him off the floor in the playoffs, and it's exactly the same with Kobe. :wink:

Man, as I've mentioned before, you have a really GREAT team, and it's a real challenge to try to get something going against your guys. That's a great matchup, and really fun to discuss.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#16 » by penbeast0 » Thu Feb 6, 2014 10:04 pm

Allright . . . as usual, going to start with some players I remember differently. Darren Armstrong was an energizer bunny, Nate Robinson type but I don't remember his defense being good. Although the effort was there, he was undersized and not a superathlete type. English did a lot of damage inside with a lot of little off-balance one handers that always seemed to go in from around 10 feet, but had years where he was an outside catch and shoot guy and years where he was the primary post-up option in Denver -- superversatile scorer. Buck was a smart player and good defender from day 1 (despite playing at Maryland). And finally, Mookie was not a particularly good playmaker even in his good assist years, he shot a lot of 3's but didn't really create off the dribble that well. That said . . .

The inside game favors Notanoob. Hakeem is clearly better than Zo in pretty much all aspects of the game, he even wins the passing battle. Rodman does Buck's job better than Buck though Buck should be superior to Bosh at what they are asking them to do and I've never been as impressed with Odom as others. Also Brad Miller was not a good defender, even in a limited minute role, unless you are asking him to match up with Rodman. Great passer and good scorer though.

Thus Quotatious has to dominate the outside game and I don't see it happening. Kobe/English/Mullin is a great combination and Billups is nearly a perfect foil BUT there just aren't enough shots available to give them a big edge over Pierce/Vince/Jet and Mookie . . . and their superior shooting is their edge. There's more than enough scoring either way and while Billups has a playmaking edge on Mookie, I don't see a real edge elsewhere in either playmaking, rebounding (accounting for pace), stretching the floor, or defense. Quotatious has an edge but it's far less clearcut than Notanoob's interior edge.

Therefore you have to look at intangibles. Kobe and Billups is great! Tons of playoff success, Chauncey has the Mr. Big Shot moniker for a reason (if Kobe ever lets him have the last shot), Mullin is clutch too but . . . so are Pierce and JET. And, of course, Hakeem ups his game in the playoffs as much as anyone in NBA history.

VOTE -- Notanoob (despite his excessive politeness which, while nice, I think weakened his game here a bit)
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#17 » by TMACFORMVP » Fri Feb 7, 2014 3:33 am

Again, I love both these teams. I think in general, everyone drafted quite well. Props to everyone. Though maybe it would have been better if ya'll messed up....woulda made it easier to judge.

Anyways...

First thing I notice is that Quotatious has got a real conventional team. You ask someone to name their ideal backcourt in terms of role...you'd say a do-it-all SG and a PG that can defend, hit the three at a high rate, not turn the ball over, and run an efficient offense. That's Billups and Kobe. Then you ask for another sort spacer that can keep the ball moving in a guy like Mullin. A bruiser 4 (though maybe we've now changed our perception on this...geared towards better spacing), with a monster defensive anchor center that can also make you pay offensively. Nice job there. English is cool, but I actually like Mullin more in that lineup. I think he's an even better passer and shooter. In particular, that 3 pt shot is such a deadly weapon...especially when you got two big men that aren't particularly adept at scoring outside the paint. Billups is great though, and Kobe is good.

I love Nootanoob's frontcourt. I think Hakeem, Bosh and Pierce is awesome on both ends. Great spacing, very good defense...I really don't have anything negative to say about it at all. For some reason I'm not a huge fan of Carter in these games, but then I can't really place the reason why...I mean he was an underrated play-maker (though probably better in that pick and roll game with NJ), a deadly outside shooter, and obviously an amazing slasher in Toronto. So he's fine. I like the appeal of Mookie's role - a 3/D sort PG, but Mookie was kinda just a crazy volume guy who took a buncha 3's. Still, that can have some advantages too. I like the bench too....Rodman is a high impact player. lol Rodman and Artest though....funny enough I've had that combination in a game before too...for some reason I'm a sucker for Metta. And Terry will come in and do his role too.

Quoatatious has got a very sweet bench too though. Mullin, Odom, Christie is a nice blend of guys to bring off the bench.

For the actual matchup now...one thing I've noticed in these games is that Zo always tends to get outplayed by superior centers. Now one should think, "umm...who doesn't get outplayed by superior players...that's why they're superior." True enough, but Zo always seemed to shrink in terms of his efficiency offensively. And defensively, in terms of overall #'s doesn't do much to affect these centers too (but it'd be hard to find someone that consistently stopped great centers anyway, so that's not a big gripe anyway). So to be FAIR though, Zo was a downright elite defender and Quotatious mentioned Zo's role wouldn't involve heavy isolation sort post plays. That's good.

But I still think Notanoob's team has some defensive matchups he can take pride in....Mookie on Billups, Hakeem/Rodman/Bosh in the paint defensively will make it hard for Quotatious team to score in the paint. And considering outside of Billups in the starting lineup there isn't an elite spacer offensively, it'll make their offense less efficient. Kobe will do his thing, but Pierce/Carter/Metta/Afflalo and even Mookie are a lotta bodies to throw at him.

And conversely again, Quotatious has got a very strong interior defensively...I mean Buck and Zo is as intimidating as it gets in the paint. Buck's strong rebounding helps Zo's solid rebounding. Bosh is going to stretch Buck a bit though (get your mind out of the gutter...). Kobe and Billups IMO are both overrated defensively, but are solid team defenders, and in the scheme with strong interior defense...it's hard to say that Quotatious team somehow lacks defensively. English from what I've seen wasn't a poor defender by any stretch, but I wouldn't say he was much better than average either (though I'm sure penbeast would disagree...lol).

So I gotta make a decision. I guess what I'm thinkin is that I'm kinda falling short in seeing where Quoatatious team can truly exploit Notanoob's. Kobe is going to have a big series, but I think Notanoob matches up well defensively for the most part, forcing them more to the perimeter (with iffy 3 pt shooting outside of Billups) all while locking down the paint. Offensively, Hakeem with floor spacing, and two wings that can create/play-make/shoot seems like a slightly better strategy to me offensively against an elite D like Quotatious, then Quotation's offensive gameplan versus a very good D. Just not sure the backcourt edge is enough here.

For that reason in an insanely tough decision (can go either way), my vote goes to:

Vote: Notanoob

P.S. I dislike your name. I know it's not hard and it's more b/c of my stupidity but I literally typed in "Nootanoob" cuz of the double "o's" everytime and had to backspace and retype.

P.S.S I love Quotatious's posts and passion. Love to see guys that truly enjoy the game.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#18 » by penbeast0 » Fri Feb 7, 2014 4:08 am

I think slightly above average describes English's defense . . . he wasn't a stopper but , he had good athleticism and was a willing defender unlike most of the great scorers of his day (Gervin, Nique, Dantley, King, Aguirre) . . . so no, I don't disagree at all.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#19 » by ronnymac2 » Fri Feb 7, 2014 6:34 am

To reinforce what Penbeast said about being a bit too polite — and I've seen this far too much in all of these playoff series — I want to see more competitiveness. Mark Cuban doesn't shout at the refs to give D-Wade more free throws. Phil Jackson didn't applaud Vlade and C-Webb for successfully getting away with 3 in the key defense against Shaq through the first 4 games of the 2000 first round playoffs. They lobbied the league. I'm not saying lie about the other team — on the contrary, addressing your own problems first is a proven good sales technique — but don't gawk at your opponent. Don't wear the opponent's sneakers on the court. I want you pointing out weaknesses, saying your strategy is the best and will work on all fronts. I want you downright implying YOU are the one supplying the needles. BALCO will look like nothing when they catch you. Winning this competition isn't about pride — it's about money. Winning means money, endorsement deals. It's about the G** D*** green! Be in the judges ears until they buy what you're selling or die! It's you or them G** D***it!


In all seriousness, you've all displayed good sportsmanship and class, and I applaud you all for it.


I hate this. I really like all the players on both sides. Quotatious' team reminds me of a team I once built, which is ironic because it featured Hakeem and Paul Pierce, two players on Notanoob's team. This will be difficult to judge.

Minutes:

C - Alonzo 33/Miller 15
PF - Buck 26/Odom 22
SF - English 28/Mullin 14/Christie 6
SG -Kobe 28/Mullin 14/Christie 6
PG - Billups 30/Armstrong 11/Kobe 7

Mookie/ JET (20)
Vince (35)/ Afflalo (13)
Pierce (34)/ Artest (10)/ Rodman (4)
Bosh (28)/ Rodman (20)
Hakeem (36)/Bosh (8)/ Rollins (4)


OK, so Quotatious is running his offense through Alonzo Mourning. Mourning will be passing the rock a ton and ISO'ing a lot. I'll wait until Quotatious regains his balance and equilibrium...

Q is using Alonzo the right way here. In an all-time league, Alonzo should be used in crossmatches against PFs or smaller Cs and as a finisher. He's got good entry passers in Billups/Mullin/Bryant/Christie, so Alonzo will be effective as far as what he's being asked to do. I don't like him as a roll man per se, but then again, most likely he'd be at the rim or five feet away when he catches the ball and he'll likely be met by Rodman or Bosh sliding over (since Hakeem is picking up the wing), so Alonzo should be able to draw fouls on Bosh or shoot over Rodman with that mechanical yet effective hook shot.

To be quite honest, I think Odom/Mullin should be with the starters and playing the majority of minutes at the forward positions. Odom would have worked beautifully with Alonzo, dishing off for passes inside like he used to with Bynum/Gasol, and Mullin's better outside shooting would have spread the floor even better, like Pierce for the other team. English would have been perfect as an offensive force/creator off the bench with Buck/Armstrong as a bruiser/energy point guard-power forward combo off the bench.

That said, Christie/Miller/Mullin running those Princeton sets for a few minutes is pretty sweet. They should have great chemistry together, especially if Lamar is in with them. Amazing spacing through ball and player movement. Miller can bring Rollins out of the paint as well. Really well done.

Vince Carter always did defend Kobe well, but with this being a younger Vince against a seasoned Bryant, I see Bryant getting his, especially in the mid-post. I'd rather see PP on Bryant to be honest. Hakeem/Bosh/Rodman is a great combination in regards to defending Kobe/Billups coming off pick-n-rolls, however.

Chauncey is one of my favorite PGs in tourneys like these. I'm not sure how he posts up here with Zo/Buck in. He works as a floor-general/spacer though.

I question why Kobe is playing 7 minutes at PG. That's taking a load he doesn't need.

On the other side, Hakeem and Vince are featured with Paul Pierce being a third option. This is a scary halfcourt offense right here.

Olajuwon works best with spacing. Here he can pass it to PP (in the years used, Paul proved how great he can be in catch-and-shoot 3-point shooting scenarios), Vince (a definite off-ball shooting threat), Blaylock and Bosh. Alonzo is a great defender, but Dream has dominated better defenders. Notanoob has his offensive constant locked and loaded.

I really like that Jet is being used at PG for 20 minutes here. He's not the best creative PG per se, but with Vince and PP able to help with ball-handling and running the offense through Olajuwon, Terry's ability to shoot and be a pick-n-roll ball-handler works really well with this dynamic. With all the offensive threats in the starting lineup+Terry, the defensive core of Rollins/Rodman/Artest/Afflalo is insane. Really, intense d.

I kind of like the matchup for Vince. Q says Bryant will be on him, and that's fine, but Vince did a decent amount of work coming off screens back in his early days. Kobe isn't the best at defending players like that, and this also takes him out of position to help against Olajuwon down low.

English against Pierce is a prime-time matchup. They won't be dueling since they aren't the main guys on their respective teams, but they are somewhat similar: Underrated defenders, solid playmakers/ball-handlers (Neither are elite like T-Mac/Bryant/Wade, but they are very good), amazing scorers, unstoppable mid-post games. I think Pierce's superior range gives him the edge in this 5-on-5 matchup, however.

Notanoob's starters have the edge overall. I think Q's starters will score efficiently, but I really doubt Notanoob's starters can be stopped from reaching very high offensive ratings. Olajuwon/Carter/Pierce are surrounded by a great supporting cast and have good matchups.

What really gives me pause is the strength of Q's bench. That bench has amazing passing and unselfish play, and they bring a spark that could really change momentum.

In the end, I see notanoob's team executing better for greater portions of the game. I love the offensive flow of the starters, and I don't think Q's defense is disruptive enough to really take it to that offensive core and make them change how they execute.

This would be a beautiful series to watch though. A lot of unselfish players. Rodman and Odom are the ultimate guys when it comes to sacrifice. I see it going seven games.

Hakeem would be teaching Kobe the Dream Shake during warm-ups and Terry would pull him aside and say "Big Fella, what you doin?" And Hakeem would laugh and say "Don't worry Jet, I only teach him half."

Great series guys, excellent drafting and writeups.

Vote: Notanoob
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (3) Quotatious vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#20 » by ardee » Fri Feb 7, 2014 9:23 am

Honestly if Quotatious played Mullin and Odom the majority of the minutes at the forward spots he'd be in the drivers seat by a margin.

I would not want to play that team. You'd have phenomenal passing at four positions and Kobe would have oodles of space to work with with Billups and Mullin spotting up and Odom in the high post. That would lead to one of those crazy 34-8-6 series from him.

Plus English could anchor the bench offence

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