Who do you pick for an all-time Celtics starting lineup

[therealbig3]

If you had to construct a starting lineup using all-time Celtics players (only using their time as a Celtic), how would you construct the starting lineup?

I think Bill Russell and Larry Bird are obvious choices here. But would you include guys like Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett, somehow?

I'm thinking something like this:

PG - Dennis Johnson
SG - Paul Pierce
SF - Larry Bird
PF - Kevin McHale
C - Bill Russell

However, if I wanted a more defensively dynamic team, I could do this:

PG - Dennis Johnson
SG - Paul Pierce
SF - Larry Bird
PF - Kevin Garnett
C - Bill Russell

Or a more talented offensive team:

PG - Dennis Johnson
SG - Danny Ainge
SF - Paul Pierce
PF - Larry Bird
C - Kevin Garnett (seems blasphemous not to include Russell, but thinking purely of offense)

Which players would you use, and how would you construct the team in terms of which position they play? Personally, I really like the idea of a Paul Pierce-Larry Bird duo as the two forwards, but then guys like Kevin McHale and Kevin Garnett would be left out unless you decided to drop Bill Russell (like in my last example).

[ThunderDan9]

Dennis Johnson
John Havlicek
Paul Pierce
Larry Bird
Bill Russell

6th man: Kevin McHale

[Reservoirdawgs]

PG: Dennis Johnson
SG: John Havlicek
SF: Larry Bird
PF: Kevin Garnett
C: Bill Russell

If someone wanted to argue Pierce over Havlicek for SG (playing him out of position, but oh well) I wouldn't really argue that point.

[Quotatious]

Bob Cousy
John Havlicek
Larry Bird
Kevin McHale
Bill Russell

Bench:

Dennis Johnson
Sam Jones
Paul Pierce
Kevin Garnett
Dave Cowens

+ Bill Sharman and Robert Parish

Coach: Red Auerbach, assistant coaches KC Jones and Doc Rivers.

[Joe Curry]

Bill Russell
Larry Bird
John Havelcheck
Paul Pierce
Bob Cousey

Bench

Kevin McHale
Sam Jones
Kevin Garnett
Rajon Rondo
Reggie Lewis
Robert Parrish
Ray Allen

Sent from my SPH-L710 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[wigglestrue]

What's with people picking DJ over Cousy? Is that an inside joke? There's no way in hell one should choose DJ over Cousy. Cousy has apparently become the most underrated player in NBA history, because of the overthought FG% thing and an overharsh assessment of his defense and an assumption that he could not compete today or something. Insane, whatever the reasoning is. Cousy was a legitimate GOAT candidate when he retired. He was generally ranked in the all-time Top 15-30 as recently as 10-20 years ago. Please do not make a starting lineup here without Cousy unless you have a lengthy, complicated, improbable case to make for it. In the meantime, here's an all-time lineup with more of an emphasis on authentic positions than usual for me, i.e., I always rank Cowens over McHale and squeeze Cowens into the first unit as a PF, but not here.

C - Bill Russell
PF - Kevin McHale
SF - Larry Bird
SG - John Havlicek
PG - Bob Cousy

And for a second unit...

C - Dave Cowens (although greater overall than McHale, imo)
PF - Kevin Garnett
SF - Paul Pierce
SG - Sam Jones
PG - Dennis Johnson

And a third unit, for good measure...

C - Robert Parish
PF - Tommy Heinsohn (or Ed Macauley)
SF - Reggie Lewis (or Antoine Walker)
SG - Bill Sharman (or Ray Allen)
PG - Rajon Rondo (or Tiny Archibald or Jo Jo White)

[wigglestrue]

Kinda nuts that one could form a third unit of already-enshrined HOFers, if you went with...

C - Robert Parish
PF - Ed Macauley
SF - Tommy Heinsohn
SG - Bill Sharman
PG - Tiny Archibald

[Quotatious]

What's with people picking DJ over Cousy? Is that an inside joke? There's no way in hell one should choose DJ over Cousy. Cousy has apparently become the most underrated player in NBA history, because of the overthought FG% thing and an overharsh assessment of his defense and an assumption that he could not compete today or something. Insane, whatever the reasoning is. Cousy was a legitimate GOAT candidate when he retired. He was generally ranked in the all-time Top 15-30 as recently as 10-20 years ago. Please do not make a starting lineup here without Cousy unless you have a lengthy, complicated, improbable case to make for it. In the meantime, here's an all-time lineup with more of an emphasis on authentic positions than usual for me, i.e., I always rank Cowens over McHale and squeeze Cowens into the first unit as a PF, but not here.

I was the first guy in this thread who picked Cousy, but I think the other posters went with DJ because he's a much more modern player, and with Cousy, there are some justifiable concerns if he'd be able to translate to the modern era. For me though, it doesn't matter, because we're not taking these guys to play against a certain opponent, but rather just take the guys who were the best players in their era, and who were the most important in Celtics history, so Cooz has to be top 5 in this regard.

C - Bill Russell
PF - Kevin McHale
SF - Larry Bird
SG - John Havlicek
PG - Bob Cousy

And for a second unit...

C - Dave Cowens (although greater overall than McHale, imo)
PF - Kevin Garnett
SF - Paul Pierce
SG - Sam Jones
PG - Dennis Johnson

Both teams are exactly the same as mine. And 1'd you for that.

[wigglestrue]

What's with people picking DJ over Cousy? Is that an inside joke? There's no way in hell one should choose DJ over Cousy. Cousy has apparently become the most underrated player in NBA history, because of the overthought FG% thing and an overharsh assessment of his defense and an assumption that he could not compete today or something. Insane, whatever the reasoning is. Cousy was a legitimate GOAT candidate when he retired. He was generally ranked in the all-time Top 15-30 as recently as 10-20 years ago. Please do not make a starting lineup here without Cousy unless you have a lengthy, complicated, improbable case to make for it. In the meantime, here's an all-time lineup with more of an emphasis on authentic positions than usual for me, i.e., I always rank Cowens over McHale and squeeze Cowens into the first unit as a PF, but not here.

I was the first guy in this thread who picked Cousy, but I think the other posters went with DJ because he's a much more modern player, and with Cousy, there are some justifiable concerns if he'd be able to translate to the modern era. For me though, it doesn't matter, because we're not taking these guys to play against a certain opponent, but rather just take the guys who were the best players in their era, and who were the most important in Celtics history, so Cooz has to be top 5 in this regard.

C - Bill Russell
PF - Kevin McHale
SF - Larry Bird
SG - John Havlicek
PG - Bob Cousy

And for a second unit...

C - Dave Cowens (although greater overall than McHale, imo)
PF - Kevin Garnett
SF - Paul Pierce
SG - Sam Jones
PG - Dennis Johnson

Both teams are exactly the same as mine. And 1'd you for that.

Bahahaha, I didn't even notice, because of the different order.
Great minds think alike, or maybe those are the Platonic all-time Celtics.

[Quotatious]

Bahahaha, I didn't even notice, because of the different order.

Funny thing is that I usually start listing lineups from center, ending with point guard, so I do the same as you. I just decided to go with the same order as the OP. Point guard is known as the '1' position, and center as '5' so I understand that order, but personally, I've always used a different approach to that - I've always sorted players based on height/size, so I normally start with center. I guess this approach doesn't work with regards to Don Nelson's teams, or some other small-ball teams.

Great minds think alike, or maybe those are the Platonic all-time Celtics.

I admit, I chuckled.

[FJS]

I would take Rajon Rondo over Dennis or Bob.

Russell
McHale
Bird
Havlicek
Rondo.

Why? He is the best passer, and why that lineup, he is more necessary.

[wigglestrue]

What's with people picking DJ over Cousy? Is that an inside joke? There's no way in hell one should choose DJ over Cousy. Cousy has apparently become the most underrated player in NBA history, because of the overthought FG% thing and an overharsh assessment of his defense and an assumption that he could not compete today or something. Insane, whatever the reasoning is. Cousy was a legitimate GOAT candidate when he retired. He was generally ranked in the all-time Top 15-30 as recently as 10-20 years ago. Please do not make a starting lineup here without Cousy unless you have a lengthy, complicated, improbable case to make for it. In the meantime, here's an all-time lineup with more of an emphasis on authentic positions than usual for me, i.e., I always rank Cowens over McHale and squeeze Cowens into the first unit as a PF, but not here.

C - Bill Russell
PF - Kevin McHale
SF - Larry Bird
SG - John Havlicek
PG - Bob Cousy

And for a second unit...

C - Dave Cowens (although greater overall than McHale, imo)
PF - Kevin Garnett
SF - Paul Pierce
SG - Sam Jones
PG - Dennis Johnson

And a third unit, for good measure...

C - Robert Parish
PF - Tommy Heinsohn (or Ed Macauley)
SF - Reggie Lewis (or Antoine Walker)
SG - Bill Sharman (or Ray Allen)
PG - Rajon Rondo (or Tiny Archibald or Jo Jo White)

I wonder how many all-time first units for franchises out of 30 each of those units could beat in a best-of-seven. So, the Celtics first unit there can probably beat the first units of, say, 26 to all 29 of the other franchises' first units. The above Celtics second unit could beat...hmmm...well over half of the other franchises' first units, right? And what about the third unit, some assemblage of those options, but let's say that one, which would be as fleet an up-and-down squad as you'll ever see, if you're talking about the peak Celtics version of each player, 1981 Parish (who was a beast), Heinsohn circa '62 or '63 or maybe rookie-playoffs Heinsohn, Reggie from around '91-93 especially his playoffs-self, either Sharman or Celtics-peak Allen would be deadly sharpshooters, Rondo from 2009 or more generally Playoff Rondo...I think that third unit could beat quite a few other franchises' five best, and it'd be insanely fun to watch. The all-HOF version of the third probably could beat a couple, too, but that's impressive more on paper than on an imaginary actual-court.

[wigglestrue]

I would take Rajon Rondo over Dennis or Bob.

Russell
McHale
Bird
Havlicek
Rondo.

Why? He is the best passer, and why that lineup, he is more necessary.

Even within a career output framework, Rondo, if he winds up a lifelong healthy Celtic, will almost certainly surpass DJ and has a longshot chance of equaling/surpassing Cousy. (In other words, there's a non-negligible chance Rondo might one day earn a spot in the latter half of the Top 50.) Rondo has been racking up the black/grey ink, killing it in the playoffs to the tune of Top 5-10 Playoff Performer of this generation, and has a long way to go.

Edit: Check this out, all the games Rondo has had at least 8 rebounds, 8 assists, and 8 points.

http://bkref.com/tiny/WWSYh

[lorak]

Starting fives with both Bird and McHale are bad idea. It worked in 80s, when small forwards played more postup ball, but it would be disaster if McHale (or Bird) would had to defend SFs who shot threes constantly.

Cousy
Sharman
Pierce
Bird
Russell

[wigglestrue]

Starting fives with both Bird and McHale are bad idea. It worked in 80s, when small forwards played more postup ball, but it would be disaster if McHale (or Bird) would had to defend SFs who shot threes constantly.

No, it wouldn't be a disaster. Hardly, lol. Do people somehow only remember McHale and Bird from their grizzled, lumbering '88-'92 years, or something? Another reason it wouldn't be a disaster:



For whatever reason, you do not remember the much nimbler versions of Bird and McHale, the ones from 1980 to that point in 1987 when everyone got old real quick. Do I have to post for you YouTube compilations of their ability to roam and disrupt wings? You put those three at their athletic peaks together and you'd have the greatest defensive frontcourt of all time. So, you probably couldn't be wronger to call it a disaster. Then there's Havlicek, too! Fiercest team defense ever.

Even with Cousy. Who was a ballhawk, no? Cousy's game shares quite a few of the same general strengths and weaknesses as Magic's. Spectacular dribblers and passers, floor generals par excellence, opportunists on defense, not much range outside, but effective driving to the hoop, good rebounders at their position (with Magic being the best, of course). Cousy won six titles, Magic five. Cousy had Russell, Magic had Kareem. Cousy was All-NBA 1st Team ten times, Magic nine. Cousy led the league in assists eight years in a row, Magic was 1st or 2nd ten years in a row. Magic is superior, no question: Three MVPs, Three Finals MVPs, nine years in a row of top-3 finishes in MVP voting. Cousy only won one MVP (and had other top-10 finishes of 3rd, 4th, 4th, 6th, 8th, 8th). But that's still more than every other PG in history except Magic, Oscar, Nash, and Rose. The only rationalization for not rubber-banding Cousy to within, say, 15 spots of Magic on any all-time list is that one has devalued the entire league in which Cousy played (and dominated). I recommend to anyone: Don't do that.

Edit, to say something I've said on this board before: It's high time we start thinking of these comparisons along the lines that baseball nerds long have, judging relative-to-league. Look, the 50's are NOT the basketball equivalent of the 1870's for baseball, any league featuring a shot clock = the modern NBA. Quality of the league, character of the rules...these things shift over time. Relative-to-league is the only rational way to judge the past against the present, player-comparing-wise.*

*unless you're constructing a team for an all-time league to hypothetically battle it out in a real-court game on paper. And then you have to start thinking about matchups, styles, how deficiencies could be exploited or overcome cross-era.

[Reservoirdawgs]

What's with people picking DJ over Cousy? Is that an inside joke? There's no way in hell one should choose DJ over Cousy. Cousy has apparently become the most underrated player in NBA history, because of the overthought FG% thing and an overharsh assessment of his defense and an assumption that he could not compete today or something.

I will gladly admit that I honestly don't know how to properly rank Cousy...he's the next player I plan on looking into once I am done with evaluating Dr. J's career. I would love to hear reasons as to why Cousy should start...as it was I went with the PG of one of my favorite championship teams of all time.

[wigglestrue]

What's with people picking DJ over Cousy? Is that an inside joke? There's no way in hell one should choose DJ over Cousy. Cousy has apparently become the most underrated player in NBA history, because of the overthought FG% thing and an overharsh assessment of his defense and an assumption that he could not compete today or something. Insane, whatever the reasoning is. Cousy was a legitimate GOAT candidate when he retired. He was generally ranked in the all-time Top 15-30 as recently as 10-20 years ago. Please do not make a starting lineup here without Cousy unless you have a lengthy, complicated, improbable case to make for it. In the meantime, here's an all-time lineup with more of an emphasis on authentic positions than usual for me, i.e., I always rank Cowens over McHale and squeeze Cowens into the first unit as a PF, but not here.

C - Bill Russell
PF - Kevin McHale
SF - Larry Bird
SG - John Havlicek
PG - Bob Cousy

And for a second unit...

C - Dave Cowens (although greater overall than McHale, imo)
PF - Kevin Garnett
SF - Paul Pierce
SG - Sam Jones
PG - Dennis Johnson

And a third unit, for good measure...

C - Robert Parish
PF - Tommy Heinsohn (or Ed Macauley)
SF - Reggie Lewis (or Antoine Walker)
SG - Bill Sharman (or Ray Allen)
PG - Rajon Rondo (or Tiny Archibald or Jo Jo White)

(Mods, don't kill me please for quoting myself again, lol.)

You could actually make a pretty decent fourth unit.
From those parenthetically listed:

C - Ed Macauley
PF - Antoine Walker
SF - Ray Allen
SG - Jo Jo White
PG - Tiny Archibald

That lineup would get crushed on the boards, lmao. But if we went cherrypicking for peaks from various players to play as an actual bench squad...

C - Bill Walton '86
PF - Satch Sanders '66
SF - Don Nelson '69
SG - Frank Ramsey '59
PG - KC Jones '62

Pretty sick strictly-bench unit, eh?

[trex_8063]

Using how they were while wearing green as the template, I'd go:

PG: Cooz
SG: Hondo
SF: Legend
PF: McHale
C: Russell

[Laimbeer]

Would be fun to do something like this in the ATFL format, and pretty easy. Everyone pick a franchise, and stock an all-time team for it. Player goes to the franchise he played the most games with. Similarly, require 3 consecutive seasons of 62+ games be designated. I'd be tempted to go farther back than the 80's.

[wigglestrue]

Would be fun to do something like this in the ATFL format, and pretty easy. Everyone pick a franchise, and stock an all-time team for it. Player goes to the franchise he played the most games with. Similarly, require 3 consecutive seasons of 62+ games be designated. I'd be tempted to go farther back than the 80's.

Agreed. Let's elaborate a little and then have it become an actual thing with a new thread and everything. I have to object to any winner-take-all-ness about divvying up a player. It sounds loopier, but in order to be fair, you've gotta spread the greatness around in proportion to the teams played for. See this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1302635

It should be possible to do that without getting too sci-fi, right?
You know, time-traveling doppelganger v. doppelganger, etc.
But, the whole act of creating these all-time teams is, too, lol.
Anyway, we need for all applicable teams to get a claim in.
Instead of X seasons or X games, I'd be tempted to say...
X percent of a player's career greatness, and should be low.
Like, either 5 or 10%, and that team gets to use 'em as they were.
That's why peaks-only and one-full-really-good-season-counts = win.
It lets more teams into the mix. How about we weigh things to...
Uhhh...I'm not a math guy. But, like, more weight to more time?