ATFL Eastern: (4) CaliBullsFan vs. (5) whitehops

MisterHibachi · Post #1 » by **MisterHibachi** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:58 pm

This is the thread for the match up of seeds 4 and 5 in the Eastern Conference of the All-Time Fantasy League.

General Discussion in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1293300
Draft was in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1294562
Playoff results in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1299878

Eastern Conference Quarterfinals: (4) CaliBullsFan vs. (5) whitehops

(4) CaliBullsFan
1. Tim Duncan (02-04)
2. Gary Payton (95-97)
3. Sidney Moncrief (82-84)
4. Marc Gasol (11-13)
5. Detlef Schrempf (95-97)
6. Jeff Hornacek (95-97)
7. Cedric Maxwell (80-82)
8. Ralph Sampson (84-86)
9. Robert Horry (02-04)
10. Michael Adams (88-90)

(5) whitehops
1. Charles Barkley (88-90)
2. Chris Paul (07-09)
3. Pau Gasol (09-11)
4. Andrei Kirilenko (02-04)
5. Arvydas Sabonis (96-98)
6. James Harden (12-14)
7. Brent Barry (01-03)
8. Maurice Cheeks (83-85)
9. Al Horford (09-11)
10. Rashard Lewis (08-10)

Judges
bastillon: CaliBullsFan
TMACFORMVP: CaliBullsFan
penbeast0: CaliBullsFan
ronnymac2: CaliBullsFan
Doctor MJ: whitehops
SideshowBob: whitehops
Texas Chuck: CaliBullsFan
therealbig3: whitehops

In each match up, GMs will offer their preliminary strategy for beating the other team and reasons for why their team is stronger. GMs will also have the opportunity to respond to the opponent's strategy. Judges will offer any comments and questions they have of the GMs and finally will cast their vote for whichever team they think is stronger simply by saying 'Team A wins this matchup' or 'Team B wins this matchup'. Whoever gets more votes moves on.

Good luck!

MisterHibachi · Post #2 » by **MisterHibachi** » Sat Feb 8, 2014 11:09 pm

CaliBullsFan has one of the best defenses in the field. Duncan, M. Gasol and Payton. But whitehops has CP3 and Barkley on offense..

Laimbeer · Post #3 » by **Laimbeer** » Sat Feb 8, 2014 11:12 pm

Love CaliBullsFan's team. Seems to be able to do it all. Except for Cornbread in the seventh round. C'mon man! :lol:

Notanoob · Post #4 » by **Notanoob** » Sat Feb 8, 2014 11:34 pm

MisterHibachi wrote:CaliBullsFan has one of the best defenses in the field. Duncan, M. Gasol and Payton. But whitehops has CP3 and Barkley on offense..

Not to mention Sid the Squid on defense or Pau on offense...

Hey! The Gasol Bros are matched up! Cool!

ardee · Post #5 » by **ardee** » Sun Feb 9, 2014 2:46 am

I like whitehops here.

CBF has a fantastic defensive team but there is less dynamism on offense. Payton and Moncrief were solid offensively but they were known for their defense and neither one was a part of a really efficient offense. Neither were very good shooters, and both made their living of slashing, which is going to be hard in this crowded paint.

Basically with the starting line-up, CBF mainly has to go to Duncan to make things happen. Not a bad option but it pales in comparison to what whitehops can do.

Paul alone gives you so many option, but add Barkley? Payton is a good defensive PG but I'd love to see him trying to deal with CP3 at his peak. Duncan IMO is not up to the task of guarding Chuck. He's taller and bigger but Barkley had enough range to pull him well out of the paint and loft jumpers over him, or he'd use his superior speed to score on him in the post. Chuck was known for handling bigger defenders with ease, he'll get his easily in this matchup. Plus Sabonis was known for his range as well, which is another thing for M. Gasol to worry about, stretching CBF's interior defense thin. Paul + Barkley + spacing (in Barry and Sabonis) = insane offense, which I don't think CBF has the tools to stop, even though he has one of the best defensive teams in the tournament.

On the other end I think whitehops matches up real well again. Sabonis and AK can front the bigs and help slow down the supply of entry passes. Barkley can be hidden on Schrempf. Since he's the only shooter it seems that whitehops also doesn't have to worry about doubling Duncan, it can be done without concern for three-point bombs.

Paul was one of the top 2 defensive PGs in the league at his peak (the other being Rondo) and I think he'd match up great with Payton. Moncrief has an advatage over Barry but I think whitehops will be happy if CBF chooses to run the offense through Moncrief.

Off the bench, whitehops has a nice change of pace with Harden being used like he was in OKC: purely a penetrator and spot-up shooter. Pau and him can anchor the second unit, and I think Pau can show his brother why he's the more regarded one. He has more spacing in Lewis, and also another option to guard CBF's guards in Cheeks in case one of them is going off and he doesn't want to tire CP3 out.

CBF has a good team but they're a little too one-dimensional for my taste.

Whitehops is looking like a potential conference winner, Pau, Barkley, Kirilenko and Sabonis up front with CP3 running the show is too much.

MisterHibachi · Post #6 » by **MisterHibachi** » Sun Feb 9, 2014 2:58 am

I would love to see peak Paul and Payton go against each other.

whitehops · Post #7 » by **whitehops** » Sun Feb 9, 2014 6:29 pm

finally! I introduce to you the whitehops' willards:

General Team Concept

Spoiler:

Roster

Spoiler:

Lineups

Spoiler:

Offensive Scheme

Spoiler:

I have probably one of the best ball-dominant players to have in nba history in chris paul. his efficiency/production is so impressive that (going by numbers alone) it is favourable to magic Johnson. I intend to have the offense run through him a lot, mainly in pick and rolls with some combination of barkley/gasol/sabonis. at these times i'll have good spacing with barry, lewis, AK, harden on the wings (probably in the corners with barry, lewis and AK) so there should be tons of space for paul to work his magic. when paul is off the floor I always intend to have harden and barkley on the floor, harden in the playmaker role (cheeks will have some playmaking duties as well, but mostly in the open court) and barkley being the go-to guy besides that.

when I have the twin towers out there (gasol and sabonis) with either paul or harden i'll have sabonis posting up on one side of the key with gasol in the high post on the other side. this will usually lead to an entry pass to sabonis, where gasol sets an off-ball screen for paul. if paul is open then sabonis can hit him for the layup. if both defenders follow paul then sabonis has gasol wide open around the free throw line. if both of those options are covered then sabonis can either post his man, or kick it back out and reset. besides those three players i'll have two of lewis, barry, AK, harden to spread the floor. the other alternative of this is instead of going to sabonis down low, I can have gasol set paul a screen up high, and if gasol rolls to the basket sabonis can fade back out to the elbow and spot up.

besides the main parts of my offense, I intend to have my off-ball wing players (cheeks, barry, AK, lewis) be cutting often. I primarily want them to spot up and cut when the defense inevitably shifts/hedges towards the many pick and rolls I plan to run. all my bigs are good passers (no seriously, even my 7'3 center http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv1qpF2AEgc) so I think the backdoor cuts will be the most back-breaking part of my offense with most of the attention on paul's magic and barkley's individual dominance.

Defensive Scheme

Spoiler:

Alright, I plan to play zone probably more than most people did in the first round because I feel CBF doesn't have the greatest spacing. i'll primarily play a 2-3 zone because I feel CBF's team really works inside-out. i'll mix in some 3-2 every once in a while, just to keep the offense off guard. when i'm playing 2-3 i'll definitely have either AK47 or lewis (usually lewis) be the third defender down low since he has the length to disrupt inside and out. the 2-3 zone is mainly because the Duncan that CBF used (02-04) was a fiend along the baseline and in the post. neither Duncan nor gasol really developed a consistent jumpshot from the foul line extended for the years that CBF used so that's a lesser point of emphasis for my defense. Duncan's bread and butter was that bank shot from the wing, which i'm hoping the 2-3 zone will make more difficult for Duncan to get off. i'll save kirilenko for the man-to-man situations mostly.

I think barkley's defensive disabilities are greatly exaggerated but nonetheless i'll play him on a combination of Schrempf/moncrief (when CBF is going small). i'm even comfortable with barkley guarding Sampson (who was never really a good offensive player) in certain man-to-man situations. I'll have AK47 primarily guard Duncan when he's at PF, sabonis will guard him when he's playing center. i'll try to play gasol on gasol in man situations. I plan to have either paul or cheeks on the floor to take on the big defensive backcourt duties (guarding either GP or squid) as much as i can and leaving harden/barry on hornacek or adams. i'm not too concerned with my defense at the SF position, since AK47 had one of the biggest defensive impacts in the league even at that young an age and lewis is an average defender with a ton of length. GP is not a great playmaker (compared to other PG's in this league) and doesn't really have any other exceptional playmakers from the perimeter on the team. I think the zone will make it hard for his guards to penetrate and start to make my defense collapse. the zone also makes it harder for entry passes, and again that stifles what I think is CBF's biggest strength offensively.

I just wanted to give you an idea of how I plan to use my team. i'll explain my specific offensive and defensive strategies a little later...

CaliBullsFan · Post #8 » by **CaliBullsFan** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:09 pm

Minutes breakdown

C - Gasol(28) Duncan(20)
PF - Duncan(18) Sampson(20) Schrempf(10)
SF - Schrempf(18) Maxwell(26) Moncrief(4)
SG - Moncrief(21) Hornacek(13) Adams (10)
PG - Payton (38) Hornacek(10)

Normal lineups would

Starters:
Gasol
Duncan
Schrempf
Moncrief
GP

First bench unit:
Duncan
Sampson
Maxwell
Hornacek
Payton

Instant offense/Super High Pressure D: (would be used as a spark to ignite the team after a bad quarter)
Duncan
Schrempf
Moncrief
Adams
Payton

Finishers: (Horry could play instead of Gasol if in a must have 3 situation)
Gasol
Duncan
Schrempf
Hornacek
Payton

obviously these would be somewhat fluid based on matchups and who's hot

All stats are playoff stats unless otherwise noted.

7'0 Tim Duncan (02-04)
43 playoff games, 25/14/5, 3blks, 57 TS%
2x MVP, Finals MVP, 3x 1st team All D, 3x 1st team All NBA

6'4 Gary Payton (95-97)
37 playoffs games, 21/5/7, <3 turnovers per game
DPOY, 3x 1st team All D, 3x 2nd team All NBA

6'3 Sidney Moncrief (82-84)
31 playoff games, 18/7/4, 3 offensive rebounds per game
2x DPOY, 3x 1st team All D, 1x 1st & 2x 2nd team All NBA

4. Marc Gasol (11-13)
35 playoffs games, 16/9/3, 76% FT shooter
DPOY, 2nd team All D, 2nd team All NBA

6'9 Detlef Schrempf (94-96)
30 playoff games, 17/5/3, 40% 3 pt%, Regular season 60% TS%
3rd team All NBA

6'3 Jeff Hornacek (95-97)
43 playoff games, 16/4/4, <2 turnovers per game, 48% 3pt%, 61% TS%.. remember that is in the playoffs 8-)

6'8 Cedric Maxwell (80-82)
38 playoff games, 16/8/2, 63% TS%, 2:1 FGA to FTA ratio
Finals MVP

7'4 Ralph Sampson (84-86)
25 playoff games, 20/12/4 , 67% FT%. Only shooter on the entire team <70%
ROY, All Star Game MVP. 2nd team All NBA

6'9 Robert Horry (02-04)
41 playoff games, 7/7/3
The definition of clutch

5'10 Michael Adams (88-90)
16 playoff games, 15/4/6
Lead NBA in 3 Pt FGs made twice (regular season)

Strategy is simple pound it inside. I will go after Barkley mercilessly and get him in foul trouble. Young Barkley was very foul prone. From 88-90 he fouled out 11x and finished with 5 fouls 38x

Matchups to exploit are:
Barkley trying to guard Cornbread or any of my 7 footers is a MEGA mismatch
Horford vs any of my 7 footers
Duncan guarded by Pau.
Cornbread guarded by a VERY young 20 to 22 year old AK47.
Cornbread guarded by Lewis = HUGE mismatch
Moncrief vs Barry
Moncrief vs Harden is a mismatch of epic proportions :lol:

In the frontcourt

Sampson, Marc and Duncan give me great spacing(all 3 have range out to 18 feet) and elite ball movement. I can get extra spacing with Schrempf at the 4. When Marc and Duncan are on the court together the paint is on complete and total lockdown they'll never miss a defensive rotation.. Marc and Duncan are two of the smartest and most consistent help defenders there are. All his guards will struggle to finish over my 7 footers.

In the backcourt

GP and/or Sidney can muscle CP3 in the post but thats not going to be something that I will use much. I would rather them move without the ball and let the offense go through Duncan/Marc in the high post

I limit Sidney's minutes because I want primarily Sidney but also GP/Allen pressuring CP3 forcing him to play off the ball(what Memphis did with Tony Allen). When Barry is on the court and CP3 is forced to give it up it will be turnover city, as Barry simply isn't a good enough ball handler to bring it up vs GP or Sidney.

I have a big rebounding edge in both my backcourt and frontcourt because My team is much bigger. My team is more athletic at virtually every spot except PF and SF when Barkley and AK47 is on the floor.

whitehops · Post #9 » by **whitehops** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:04 pm

I'm all for pointing out highlights of your team and even pointing out an opponent's weakness, but are we allowed to exaggerate and/or nitpick stats to make our team seem better (or will judges see right through that)?

some things I'd like to comment on:
- the average heights of our teams are the same
- considering that CBF doesn't really have any extraordinary athletes on his team I would say that his team isn't much more athletic, if at all. I would say it's a wash in terms of athleticism.
- CBF is often using stats in a 20-40 game sample, as opposed to a 200+ game sample. when the stats aren't favourable he uses RS stats. (see: Schrempf and TS%).
- the worst free throw shooter on my team is barkley at 75%.

I intend to post my full offensive and defensive strats by the end of the day.

ardee · Post #10 » by **ardee** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:28 pm

MisterHibachi wrote:I would love to see peak Paul and Payton go against each other.

Really? I see it as a mismatch. Paul has played the PG position better than possibly ANYONE at his peak, while Payton is nowhere near.

Bruh Man · Post #11 » by **Bruh Man** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:44 pm

ardee wrote:
MisterHibachi wrote:I would love to see peak Paul and Payton go against each other.

Really? I see it as a mismatch. Paul has played the PG position better than possibly ANYONE at his peak, while Payton is nowhere near.

Does Magic not exist anymore? I think Paul gets extremely overrated on this board, he's the best point guard in the league currently but he can definitely get outplayed by other All-Time great pg's. I can see Payton giving him a hard time, hell Deron Williams used to outplay him in a lot of their head to head match-ups.

CaliBullsFan · Post #12 » by **CaliBullsFan** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:30 pm

whitehops wrote:I'm all for pointing out highlights of your team and even pointing out an opponent's weakness, but are we allowed to exaggerate and/or nitpick stats to make our team seem better (or will judges see right through that)?

some things I'd like to comment on:
- the average heights of our teams are the same
- considering that CBF doesn't really have any extraordinary athletes on his team I would say that his team isn't much more athletic, if at all. I would say it's a wash in terms of athleticism.
- CBF is often using stats in a 20-40 game sample, as opposed to a 200+ game sample. when the stats aren't favourable he uses RS stats. (see: Schrempf and TS%).
- the worst free throw shooter on my team is barkley at 75%.

I intend to post my full offensive and defensive strats by the end of the day.

You haven't posted a minutes breakdown but you have small bigs in Horford and Barkley along with smaller PGs in Cheeks and CP3 and a very thin 20-22 year old AK47.

When it comes to athleticism. the only standout athletes on your team are Barley and AK47, you choose older versions of Rashard Lewis and Brent Barry who's athleticism were significantly diminished and lastly you have Sabonis... I think the athleticism is pretty equal in the front court but i have a big advantage in the backcourt.

Playoff stats are much more relevant than RS stats for this. They are actually less favorable for my team but I used them because they show the judges meaningful performance. Also I only cited RS stats twice and that was Schrempf's TS% and Adams leading the NBA in 3 pointers.

Laimbeer · Post #13 » by **Laimbeer** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:26 pm

ardee wrote:
MisterHibachi wrote:I would love to see peak Paul and Payton go against each other.

Really? I see it as a mismatch. Paul has played the PG position better than possibly ANYONE at his peak, while Payton is nowhere near.

Payton is as well equipped to guard Paul as perhaps anyone in history. This puts a major dent in Paul's effectiveness. Paul is at a disadvantage in this matchup because of size as well.

whitehops · Post #14 » by **whitehops** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:37 am

Laimbeer wrote:Payton is as well equipped to guard Paul as perhaps anyone in history. This puts a major dent in Paul's effectiveness. Paul is at a disadvantage in this matchup because of size as well.

a big part of payton's effectiveness of defense was his strength and physicality over other PG's, he could body them and handcheck them. we're using today's rules where he won't be able to do nearly as much of that on the perimeter. besides, 07-09 paul was pretty darn quick and extremely shifty/crafty. historically paul hasn't had much problem with bigger guards defending him, the player who's guarded him best would probably be rondo who matches his quickness and has exceptional length to boot. paul has got his and more against bigger point guards like kidd and hinrich, and that is back when kidd was still on all-nba defensive teams.

i'm not that worried about payton guarding paul, and it sounds like CBF is going to have moncrief on him most of the time anyways.

whitehops · Post #15 » by **whitehops** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:03 am

sorry to double post but I added the rotational minutes of my team as well as an offensive/defensive breakdown. I edited my initial post (seventh in this thread) with the added info.

that's most of what I say, the rest will be small rebuttals/answering questions anyone else has.

Post #16 » by **penbeast0** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:48 am

A few things I question here. For CaliBullsfan, I don't think you can afford to use Maxwell a lot; he hurts your spacing despite his great efficiency -- he was a low post player and whitehops is right about your outside shooting. Hornacek helps with that, as does Schrempf but that takes out Moncrief or Gasol/Sampson. I liked Hornacek but he's nowhere near the gamechanging dynamic player that prime Moncrief was (basically prime DWade impact with greater defense and not that much less offense). Maybe using Maxwell with Schrempf on the frontline but that weakens your defense a lot. Both Moncrief and Hornacek played a lot of PG but neither was a creator there so Payton is another player you need in the game.

For Whitehops, Sabonis in the NBA was an extremely limited defensive player although still capable of doing unique things offensively. He and Barkley leave you very porous inside; Pau almost has to be in the game (or Sampson) for help defense. Barkley was good at denying post position with his lower body strength but his defensive timing and awareness were poor and a player like Duncan could shoot over him pretty easily. Sabonis can't handle Duncan either with his limited mobility; it's going to be a problem for you although Marc Gasol is a medicore offensive player in a league this stacked.

That said, the use of 2014 rules/refs give Whitehops a big boost. Barkley/Paul is a fabulous offensive combo and while Barry is going to be abused by Moncrief, he and Harden are fine offensively as spot up shooters as are Lewis, and even Kirilenko and Sabonis whose outside shot is great for a 7 footer. Offensively this is a great fit, defensively it is weak inside and Barry/Harden can't handle Moncrief but should be fine against Hornacek who will play a similar role to Whitehops's guards.

On the other end, Moncrief isn't going to be used as a major weapon and plays limited minutes so it won't be an extended problem and Pau or Sampson will help the defensive issues during the halfgame they are in. While Barkley/Paul are an unstoppable force, Duncan will be pretty dominant too. If Barkley is on Duncan and the ball is forced into that matchup constantly as Cali plans, that's going to be ugly for Whitehops. They can play to Barkley's side of the zone and force doubles and Cali has plenty of scoring to take advantage while Duncan is an excellent post passer.

This is an extremely tough matchup to call. Both sides will be effective scoring in the post, with an edge to Cali for his superior physicality at the guard spots. Whitehops has an advantage on the outside with his shooting and superior playmaking. Rebounding should favor Cali despite Barkley's presence. Cali also has a significant defensive edge while intangibles are too indeterminate for me to call with so many strong mental presences on both teams. I've switched my decision on this twice but in the end, I just don't see Sabonis and Barkley giving enough interior defense even with zone rules to keep Duncan from being the MVP of this series.

Decision to CaliBullsfan in what I think of as the closest of the first round matchups.

whitehops · Post #17 » by **whitehops** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:56 am

penbeast0 wrote:For Whitehops, Sabonis in the NBA was an extremely limited defensive player although still capable of doing unique things offensively.

I've been trying to figure out where that stigma came from, sabonis was top 5 in defensive rating in the league in 96 and 97 and seventh in 98 on a Portland team that was one of the best defensive teams in the league. every single of those years sabonis had the best defensive rating on the team, and this is one of the best defensive teams in the league we're talking about.

whatever you may think of sabonis as a defender, I think it's pretty undeniable he had a huge impact on the defensive end of the floor, as well as on the offensive side.

I think it would be pretty silly to call sabonis a defensive liability when he anchored one of the best defenses in the league from '96 to '98.

I did my research before drafting sabonis, as I knew I needed a good interior presence on the defensive end.

CaliBullsFan · Post #18 » by **CaliBullsFan** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:20 am

penbeast0 wrote:A few things I question here. For CaliBullsfan, I don't think you can afford to use Maxwell a lot; he hurts your spacing despite his great efficiency -- he was a low post player and whitehops is right about your outside shooting. Hornacek helps with that, as does Schrempf but that takes out Moncrief or Gasol/Sampson. I liked Hornacek but he's nowhere near the gamechanging dynamic player that prime Moncrief was (basically prime DWade impact with greater defense and not that much less offense). Maybe using Maxwell with Schrempf on the frontline but that weakens your defense a lot. Both Moncrief and Hornacek played a lot of PG but neither was a creator there so Payton is another player you need in the game.

Duncan, Gasol and Sampson are all reliable shooters just not to the 3 point line and given the passing ability and basketball IQ of those guys I think that is enough to space the floor for guys like Maxwell and Moncrief. By that I mean if they get the ball as the D is rotating they aren't one dimensional, they can carve up a rotating defense with more than their jumpshot

Speaking of Moncrief yes his primary role would high energy pressure D. But make no mistake if he's being guarded by a lazy/soft defender like Harden that will be exploited, whether its Moncrief taking him to the post OR Moncrief crashing the boards(averaged 3 offensive rebounds a game in the playoffs during the years designated)

therealbig3 · Post #19 » by **therealbig3** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:09 pm

Sabonis imo was an excellent defensive big while in Portland. He was checking Shaq and doing a very good job during that time.

therealbig3 · Post #20 » by **therealbig3** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:30 pm

Obviously, CBF's team is SICK defensively. GOAT defensive team and easily the best one in the tourney imo. GP and Moncrief in the backcourt, with Duncan and Gasol as the big men. Sampson off the bench.

But here's the thing: I'm really not a fan of the offense. whitehops mentioned he'll go zone, because of the lack of spacing and clog up the inside, making things really difficult for Duncan and Gasol. The only legitimate shooter in the starting lineup for CBF is Schrempf.

I think Duncan is going to have a tough series. With decent spacing, he would have destroyed Kirilenko imo, AK is just too skinny to deal with him, but he's going to be getting doubled and tripled like crazy because of the lack of spacing. And I agree with whitehops putting Barkley on Sampson or Schrempf...not so much putting him on Moncrief, who was a legitimately good offensive player imo.

CBF is capable of putting out a much better shooting lineup by moving Schrempf to PF and bringing in Hornacek, but then again, Maxwell never displayed 3pt range, and as a SF without a 3pt shot, that could still hurt your spacing.

I personally love the fact that whitehops will also always have a great playmaker out there at all times...when CP3 goes to the bench, Harden will enter the game. There's always shooting, there's always excellent passing, and Pau Gasol is going to have a really big impact on this series imo. I would have actually used him to guard Duncan when he comes into the game, because he's done a pretty good job on him historically. I think CP3 and Barkley together is going to be GODLY on offense, and there's no one on CBF's team that can check Barkley. I think whitehops has an inherently flawed defensive team that can pretty easily be exploited, but his opponent here has an inherently flawed offensive team that can't take advantage of it. And offensively, I really don't think any defense is going to stop a dominant post scorer surrounded by great guard play, excellent shooting, and excellent passing. It's why I'm so high on Notanoob's and john248's teams, and why at least offensively, I'm very high on whitehops's team.

Vote: whitehops