Defending Joe Dumars...

[ComboGuardCity]

Note: Joe has made made many mistakes and we could be a lot better right now. It wouldn't be the end of the world for me to see Joe get fired, but I don't think he's the complete moron a lot of us (myself included) have painted him to be. This is a totally best (worst) case scenario (but plausible) look at what might have happened with JoeD

Coaches

1. Rick Carlisle
Rick is a great coach now and led the Pistons on a pretty decent playoff run. However, IIRC, ownership didn't like Rick and there were reports at the time that management wanted Rick out. Plus, we end up getting a championship ring with the next coach. So not a terrible canning.

2. Larry Brown.
He won us a ship! Great hiring! However, LB was pimping himself out to other teams while still under contract! Do you really want to keep around a coach who wants to upgrade? Plus, evident from his last years, he was done as a championship coach anyways.

3. Flip Saunders.
Pretty mediocre coach, but probably the best signing at the time. From what I remember, the only other guy to purse was Nate (go figure). He was then canned because he lost with a contender in the conference championship. It wasn't just the losing that was concerning it was the sputtering that really sucked and frustrated all of us. When you're a championship team and you lose like that, the coach is gone.

4. Michael Curry.
Here, Joe starts to gamble. Curry was a stand-up guy who commanded respect. He was pretty much pre-lockout Derrick Fisher at the time. Joe was looking for a long term answer as he decided to re-tool the team. However, Curry's gameplan lacked any sort of gameplan. He was a bad hire. At the time, we should've gone with Avery Johnson. But really, would AI, Sheed, Rip have listened to him either?

5. John Kuester
This was after the desperation signings (more on that later). It was between Avery, John, and Thibs. Avery was choice #1. Talks broke down because he wanted more money than he was worth. Both remaining candidates were unkowns. A decision had to be made. Do you go with a coach you know and have gone to a championship with or do you give an unknown assistant the chance to implement a defense that worked (albeit with 3 HOFers)? Add to the fact, you just signed to offense first guys, who are supposed to lead the team. Joe chose wrong here. Thibs was the right choice and its painfully obvious...in hindsight. But Kuester looked like a genius at the time working with Lebron. We later came to realize, Lebron was just really really good.

6. Lawrence Frank
He wasn't even Dumars's guy. Non-issue.

7. Mo Cheeks
Good ole Mo. We had a great run of 50 games. However, Mo apparently wasn't Dumars's #1 guy. He wanted Nate. Would Nate have been? Of course, Mo brought in the worst case scenario sans asking Josh to play full time point. Until we see some more reports, I'm not sure we can blame Joe 100% for this one.



Signings

1. Signing Rip to an extension.
Rip had just turned 30. But he was coming off his most efficient season ever. He was distributing better and somehow started hitting 3s at a crazy percentage. We all remember, how Rip's conditioning was shoved down our throats. He should be just leaving his prime by the end of his contract. He was undoubtedly the player with the best future ahead of him amongst our core.

2. Trading Billups for AI.
I was ecstatic at the time. We weren't winning a ship with the current team. It had ran its course. AI was still a relatively efficient player. I thought for sure, we had a chance to at least make some noise in the playoffs. Plus, we would be able to do a re-vamp the team with cap space the next summer. Stuckey looked like a star in the making and would easily fill in for Chauncey in due time. Right guys? Next season we would have Stuckey-Rip-Tay + tons of cap space to go after an all star like Boozer. Maybe make a trade for a star player. It was a genius move at the time...awful in hindsight.

3. Trading Afflalo
We cared for about 2 weeks. Then we got over it. Now we're kicking ourselves because he developed into a great player. But at the time, was he really going to get playing time behind our 2 all star shooting guards?

4. Signing BG and Charlie V.
This was a split signing at the time. But remember, we had just struck out on Boozer and Joe didn't have time for a stop gap with the whole ownership mess. Ben Gordon was at the very least, an elite sixth man who could create his own offense. He was clutch in the playoffs and almost single handedly beat the Celtics a couple times in the playoffs. Plus, he was going to be in his prime. In terms of Charlie V, we needed a 4 after losing out on Boozer. He was young and showed massive potential. He could score from anywhere. All he needed was some focus. Hell, some of the guys that hated him compared him to Bosh . He's a great bench player at worst and its not like 8mill a year is going to kill your cap space for a decent role player.



Present Day
The jury is still out on Josh and Jennings. I don't mind the Jennings signing. He's not too expensive and its only 3 years. He's tradeable at the very least. For Josh, well, if we don't get a coach who can talk a decade of shooting jumpers out of him (don't hold your breath), we have a very valuable player. He was a great defender at the 3 when he played there in Atlanta so maybe it was the coach (again don't bet on it). But its still not a complete lost cause.



All in all, this was the most Pro Joe-D stance one could take. He is to blame for many things and there are reasons for him to be fired, but maybe he's not as bad as we all have made him out to be?

[Invictus88]

I'm too tired tonight to debate this point by point . The rebuttals for each are already known and can be seen on other threads.

This truly is as glass half full as you could be. BTW, you kind of didn't make any references to Darko or the BG trade + pick for cap space or the Maxiell extension.

This post was extremely thoughtful and well written, so kudos CGC. (I think this is the first time I've ever And 1'd a post I disagreed with ) But unfortunately I'm in the other camp w/regards to Mr.Dumars. Reasoning can be found in plenty of other threads.

[ElectricMayhem]

...to you for fighting the unpopular fight.

I finally turned on Joe this preseason when he hired Mo Cheeks. Just an absolutely absurd hire. That, Keuster, and the BG/CV signings have been his biggest missteps in my opinion (Obviously, some other moves ended up worse, but you can only judge a GM on what he had to go on at the time).

In your post, you say that Joe wanted Nate over Mo? I had never heard that. Do you have any sources? If Gores vetoed McMillan but Ok'd Cheeks, I'd be worried about the state of this franchise going forward. Unless it was just a cash issue because Gores knew he'd be canning both the GM and coach soon...

Anyway, Dumars had made some good moves and he's made some poor moves, with more of the latter coming lately. Many posters weren't quite so confident in their panning of the Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings acquisitions at the beginning of the season....There was a lot of hope, if I recall correctly. Now, it seems like everyone is saying it was obvious it wasn't going to work and Joe's a moron. If I recall correctly, a few people were angry by the move while most of the board realized (and somewhat respected) that it was a gamble. There definitely is some revisionist history going on on this board.

I still think we need a new GM to compete IF we can find someone worthy of the job. You don't just fire him to fire him and hope someone comes up. Make sure you've got your guy, THEN you "promote" Dumars in the organization.

He's not the man who should be running the ship, but he definitely doesn't deserve the hate he's gotten.

[pistontr]

don't even try

[Choob]

3. Trading Afflalo
We cared for about 2 weeks. Then we got over it. Now we're kicking ourselves because he developed into a great player. But at the time, was he really going to get playing time behind our 2 all star shooting guards?

I still care about this trade. We just gave the dude away. Ironically, he's exactly what we need at the 2 - good defender who hits at a decent percentage and can hit 3's.

[Kilo]

I'm sure his dog likes him as well.

He has to go. He lives off his fluke laurels from a decade ago. Saint Joe is all of the problem right now and it makes absolutely no sense to fire Cheeks and keep him around. He seems to have snowed Gores equal to or worst than Millen had William Clay Ford snowed for all those years. He's a snake oil salesman, he's a con man.

[vic]

His firsts owner fired his only 2 quality coaches.
Then his owner died.
Then his owners daughter didn't care, and struggled to sell the team.
This new owner is only in his 2nd season.

So yeah Joe D. has definitely made some errors but he's not the entire problem by himself.

[DETermination]

9 different coaches in 14 seasons, there is no defending him he needs to go.

[ImHeisenberg]

Combo, I think you romanticized some of those events a little.

I'll quickly point out that absolutely every GM in the league has whiffed on signings, drafting and hirings. Nobody can bat 100. But, Joe's tenure has been so very long, because most franchises don't allow their president of basketball operations to make so many harmful mistakes.

Using some liberal revisionist history, I see a team who could have been coached and still coached by Tom Thibodeau. Drafted a superstar in Paul George. And could have managed their cap space so, so, so much better to create a more competitive team.

Joe needs to go. There's no justifiable defense for him. He's squandered cap space, picks and players.

Gores would do well to just fire him now and see if they can pry Kevin Pritchard away from Indiana.

[Piston Pete]

Dumars has been a hot mess since the Billups/AI trade.

Last 4 coaching hires: Curry, Kuester, Frank, Cheeks

Trading Afflalo, Walter Sharpe, and cash to Denver for a future 2nd rounder.......which became Vernon Maclin.

Traded away Amir Johnson for nothing at all. (Traded for Fransico Oberto, who we waived)

Spending all our FA cash on Gordon/CV

Then trying to fix one mistake by sending a pick with Gordon just to get cap space last offseason. When all the while, he could have kept the pick and just amnestied BG instead....

Then with the cap space last offseason, he spends it on JSmoove, Billups, Bynum, and Jennings

He has never once committed to a full-blown rebuild. He instead has ALWAYS looked to slap a band-aid on his mistakes and re-tool. He seems to always be looking for the quick fix.



His only saving grace's are the drafting of Monroe and Drummond - yet you could make a very strong argument for him being lucky they fell into his lap.

[rmfc]

I used to be a big supporter of Joe Dumars. I still respect him a lot. With that being said(and even ignoring some of the terrible roster moves), Dumars should be fired just based on the number of his horrific coaching hires in the past few seasons. Anyone with some common sense would have realized the team hired the worst possible coaching candidate in the off-season.

Mo Cheeks, really? You cannot gamble on every single aspect of the team.

[theBigLip]

Either Joe got lucky in 2004 or the people that worked for him were much better and have since moved on. Either way, Joe doesn't have "it" anymore. Gores and Dumars can have a nice civil separation, but it is time for everyone to move on.

Ok, quick digression - coaches have all sucked since Flip. Free agent signings have all sucked since, um, have we ever signed a good significant free agent? Darko aside, drafts have been pretty good, but drafting in the mid lottery every year you're going to get some good players. Enough said. Bu bye Joe.

[MrBigShot]

His track record since 08-09 has been a nightmare, aside from drafting Monroe/Drummond (who fell to him, but kudos to him for not trying to be Cleveland and reach for someone else). I appreciate what he did for the team as a GM, and as a player, but it's time for him to go. I think we should wait until the off-season comes and then simply not extend him, as opposed to firing. Then we can stop hating on Joe D and just appreciate everything he contributed to the franchise. He was a major factor in all 3 of our championships.

[Clarity]

Like i've said before, Joes "failures" as a GM in the past have been massively overblown, however the Josh signing was a colossal screw up & that move alone, with a core of a near All Star big & a future top 5 NBA superstar big man already in place & needing focused development would get most GMs fired.

Joe is not the right man to take this franchise forward, its pretty clear.

[Neptune]

Stop the Dumars hate.

[ChainLink]

The owner definitely has something do with Joe's failures. After Bill Davidson passed away, he's had an indifferent owner Karen D, who was trying to sell the team and essentially Joe had his hands tied as far as making moves from 2010 to 2012.

Gores, while I'm glad he's more enthusiastic about the Pistons success, comes off as impatient and a guy who needs results now. Bringing outsiders like Phil Jackson and Dave Checketts to help (possibly undermine) your management on important decisions. Firing Cheeks may be the right move, but not midseason when you're not planning on hiring Hollins right now and no one knows what direction the organization is going.

That playoff mandate last spring probably didnt help either (given that we need a top 8 pick to keep it, maybe Dumars could have convinced Gores that he needs one more piece and it would come out of this star studded 2014 draft.). I think now its too late to tank, with our current 8th/9th seed in the East record...but if Gores wasn't on a playoffs or fired mode, the team could have been making smart long term solutions since last summer.


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[DocRI]

Great OP, CGC.

IMHO, the truth is always somewhere in the shades of grey rather than black or white. I've been a big Dumars supporter for years, but eventually change is needed in most businesses (very few executives or managers can maintain continued excellence). Sadly, I agree that the time has come for a new G.M.

That said, again CGC, great post; however, to chime in on a few points —

• Rip Hamilton was signed to his extension after the AI trade. Like literally RIGHT after, as in a matter of hours on the same day (11/3/2008). Per ESPN, as quoted by DetroitBadBoys.com —

The Detroit Pistons didn't stop at making over their backcourt Monday.

In addition to acquiring Allen Iverson in a three-for-one trade with the Denver Nuggets, the Pistons agreed to a three-year extension with Richard Hamilton, a team source told ESPN.com's Chad Ford.

The new contract is worth $34 million, with the first two years guaranteed. The third year is only a partial guarantee, the source told Ford.

• I remember the press conference when Dumars fired Carlisle, and he was practically heartbroken about it. This isn't to say that he was forced to fire him, though; in fact, I remember Joe saying, 'There's no salary cap when it comes to coaches." Essentially, Joe made it known that he was firing Carlisle because Brown was available and he believed Brown could take us over the top to a championship (and he was right).

• Speaking of which, we get to Larry Brown. I honestly have NO CLUE how anyone who remembers his departure from the Pistons could EVER blame Joe for that. Simply put, Brown was 100% in the wrong. He was flirting with the Knicks and made it clear he wanted to jump ship while he was still under contract with us; honestly, I suspect he would've pulled the same crap even if we had beaten the Spurs and repeated in '05. Look at his track record of constantly leaving jobs for "greener pastures" and ask yourself who was responsible for his departure. Bill Davidson didn't have to "force" Joe to fire Larry Brown; Larry Brown was an unprofessional, manipulative douche bag who courted other jobs through the media. Brown's departure was solely on Brown; HE was the one who forced management's hand to fire him 'cuz it's what he wanted.

[DonVitoReturns]

Here's my question:

Where is Joe Dumars?

Although never extremely accessible, in the early years Joe was willing to conduct the occassional interview to discuss the status of the team, the direction, the vision, etc.

In recent years, he's been nearly invisible during the season. In fact, this year I would call him completely invisible. Not a peep out of him. Not accessible whatsoever. No comments, nothing.

As a fan, that is frustrating. It's as if he's in the witness protection program.

Mayhew is pretty invisible with the Lions as well during the season (not this bad). That's frustrating. However, Dombrowski has always seemed willing to speak on occassion, as does Ken Holland.

But Dumars...it's like he doesn't even exist anymore outside of the occasional "statement" for the press. It's really something.

I have to wonder why he still wants this job. At this point, shouldn't he just walk away and live the rest of his life peacefully? Does he have that much love for the Pistons that HE wants to be the one to make it right? I guess that's possible after nearly 30 years. However, his invisibility seems to indicate he's as miserable as the rest of this fan base and knows the writing is on the wall.

Joe - perhaps it's time to just walk away for your own sanity? You seem to be living a nightmare.

[DTP]

I hate all the Joe D hate...I really do, but man its hard to defend him since 09. I don't want Joe D gone, I just want him to get back to making moves. I have no problems with the drafting he's done of late...Monroe, Drummond, KCP, and Singler and I have no problems with off season moves (Jennings & Smith)...the moves improved the team, opened up more possibilities, and there was basically nothing else to do but Monroe has to be moved.....I have a feeling it won't happen though. Shooters on this team and some added punch to the bench and I'm happy.

[mercury]

I'm not so sure Joe wants to stay... he's always had full control of personnel decisions... now he's got an owner that is more in his face with committee decisions...
Joe has enough league respect where he'll easily land a job next year.
I don't think firing him happens b4 he walks on his own... maybe closer to his roots like New Orleans.