ATL: Offseason

crkone · Post #61 » by **crkone** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:02 pm

He would also have issues in coverage. He should be drafted but I doubt TT would go for it. They just don't like a ton of media attention up in Green Bay. They hated the Favre drama, I'm sure they wouldn't like news trucks parked outside lambeau from all networks all training camp long. Certain teams love the media coverage so he definitely will go somewhere.

Newz · Post #62 » by **Newz** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:44 pm

He is gay. Who cares.

In my opinion the guy should have just went on being a homosexual, went to the combine and got drafted. Why do people have to announce they are gay? Should all of the straight guys in the draft come out and start telling people about their sexual preferences?

No one cares what you do in the bedroom (at least they shouldn't) and who you do it with. Shut up, work out, get drafted and play football.

Ayt · Post #63 » by **Ayt** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:13 pm

The ignorance is staggering.

Newz · Post #64 » by **Newz** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:20 pm

Ayt wrote:The ignorance is staggering.

I'm assuming this is in response to my post?

Kerb Hohl · Post #65 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:49 pm

Newz wrote:He is gay. Who cares.

In my opinion the guy should have just went on being a homosexual, went to the combine and got drafted. Why do people have to announce they are gay? Should all of the straight guys in the draft come out and start telling people about their sexual preferences?

No one cares what you do in the bedroom (at least they shouldn't) and who you do it with. Shut up, work out, get drafted and play football.

That's not possible in today's NFL. It's not just "in the bedroom" that people have to worry about. At the team awards banquet, if he brings a guy with as his date and nobody knew this, how would that go?

Of course in 5-10 years when a few other current players come out finally, maybe your point will be valid. There are going to be 5 guys on each team that take issue with him. He'd probably have to live a lie. He'd either have to never tell anyone and basically not publicly show he's gay (would it be easy for you to not display your girlfriend/wife in public?) or bring it up to his team, in which case it would become a big deal and not under his control.

Newz · Post #66 » by **Newz** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:08 pm

Kerb Hohl wrote:
Newz wrote:He is gay. Who cares.

In my opinion the guy should have just went on being a homosexual, went to the combine and got drafted. Why do people have to announce they are gay? Should all of the straight guys in the draft come out and start telling people about their sexual preferences?

No one cares what you do in the bedroom (at least they shouldn't) and who you do it with. Shut up, work out, get drafted and play football.

That's not possible in today's NFL. It's not just "in the bedroom" that people have to worry about. At the team awards banquet, if he brings a guy with as his date and nobody knew this, how would that go?

Of course in 5-10 years when a few other current players come out finally, maybe your point will be valid. There are going to be 5 guys on each team that take issue with him. He'd probably have to live a lie. He'd either have to never tell anyone and basically not publicly show he's gay (would it be easy for you to not display your girlfriend/wife in public?) or bring it up to his team, in which case it would become a big deal and not under his control.

So for one, I don't appreciate being called ignorant. I realize Ayt thinks I'm ignorant... but my opinion is that people should be equal and treated equally. If you want to think that's ignorance, that's fine. I personally disagree with you.

I get where you are coming from with the banquet thing and stuff of that nature. I don't think he should have to hide who he is dating or seeing at all. The main thing that annoys me about stories like this is the overwhelming amount of media and hype that this gets. The amount of celebration that announcements of people being gay or coming out receive. Someone in this thread wished him the best of luck and hopes he does great in the NFL without knowing anything else about him other than that he's gay.

For example I went to lunch at Chili's today and ESPN was on. I was there for about an hour and there was no other story... all they covered was this guy being gay. It really isn't that big of a deal and it really isn't something (in my opinion) that people need to voice on a national stage. Nor is it something that needs hours upon hours of media coverage... it isn't something worth writing thousands of Internet articles about.

If it's something that he's concerned about why doesn't he just voice it in his one-on-one interviews with scouts and GMs? Why didn't he approach it like he approached it in college? Why does the NFL have to say they are going to come out and support him? Why does Mike McCarthy have to come out and say that we'd draft him?

My opinion is that if you want people to be equal, then treat them equally. If Blake Bortels comes out and randomly says "I'm straight. I had sex with like twenty-three different girls in college." are they going to run hours worth of news coverage on it? No. Because who the **** cares. What you do in the bedroom and who you date is up to you. I feel the same way about gay people as I do about straight people in that regard.

To me running this media coverage, typing up thousands of articles and making statements about it doesn't make gay people seem equal or on the same footing as straight people. It makes it come off like people view them as different, as special or as some sort of spectactle to behold. He is just a guy who happens to date other guys. Why is this a news story?

In addition I don't think the overall attention he is going to get and this situation is going to get is all going to be positive. I think there could be a lot of false negativity pulled from this happening that doesn't need to be there. What if he slips in the draft because he legitimately has bad workouts and scouts/GMs/coaches see things on film that they don't like? A lot of people are going to start ranting about how he just fell in the draft because he was gay and because of the media attention and things of that nature.

So in my (apparently ignorant) opinion there is no need for hours of ESPN coverage, for tons of articles spread all over the Internet and for the backlash that is going to come from this one way or another. He's just a guy with a different sexual preference. His job is potentially going to be playing football. So go through the process like every other candidate, get drafted and play.

Kerb Hohl · Post #67 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:16 pm

The most important thing from that post was lunch at Chili's.

In all seriousness, I never said you were ignorant. However, there are a lot of guys hiding their true life right now. Kerry Rhodes can't get a contract right now. I'm sure most NFL execs are "open" people but they all are saying they are terrified of a gay player on their team because of the media scrutiny and the fact that players will take offense to it.

I get that you're trying to take the road of "we shouldn't care at all so why is this even an issue" which isn't bad, except it's just not reality. This may not be as monumental as Jackie Robinson, but it's a group of people that now maybe have one person that has broken the barrier. Somebody that's going to take the scrutiny and deal with the players that don't agree with him. This is the moment that may open the door for your statement to be more realistic in 10-20 years.

The comparison of "I'm straight" is not working, though. I will stop short of calling you ignorant but it doesn't work like that. The whole culture is straight male oriented in the locker room and fandom of the NFL. No straight or gay player would rip Blake Bortles for saying he's straight or bat an eye. When a player is drafted and kisses his boyfriend in the green room with minimal response from the 20 million people watching, then you can say that.

There is still a small subset of older folks or ignorant folks that say racial things. It took forever for some people to be OK with black quarterbacks, coaches, whatever. You and me? We grew up post Jackie Robinson. We think it's weird that people ever cared about that stuff. Good for us. However, the gay rights movement in sports is 30-40 years behind that curve. Younger generations either care or have never seen this. It's something that if he held hands with a guy after the game, he would take incredible emotional damage from if he told this to nobody he'd get ripped by a lot of people. You're oversimplifying this if you think it's not a big deal to the nation and league.

Brett Favre sexually harrassed several women and it was basically the butt of a joke. He kept playing. Kerry Rhodes had a picture released of him hugging and nearly kissing a guy and he was basically excommunicated from the league.

Newz · Post #68 » by **Newz** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:31 pm

There is still a small subset of older folks or ignorant folks that say racial things. It took forever for some people to be OK with black quarterbacks, coaches, whatever. You and me? We grew up post Jackie Robinson. We think it's weird that people ever cared about that stuff. Good for us. However, the gay rights movement in sports is 30-40 years behind that curve. Younger generations either care or have never seen this. It's something that if he held hands with a guy after the game, he would take incredible emotional damage from if he told this to nobody. You're oversimplifying this if you think it's not a big deal to the nation and league.

You think it's weird that people ever cared about racism? That's strange as it's perfectly clear to me why people cared a lot about racism and helping to get rid of it. You are right that this isn't even close to Jackie Robinson. I honestly think it's insulting to Jackie Robinson and the struggle he went through to even compare the two.

I think it's perfectly fine that you think I'm oversimplifying it. If you want to go on about hetrosexual and homosexual should be treated the same and then have a month worth of media coverage every time that an athlete or celebrity announces that they are gay, then that's fine. But that isn't at all the definition of equality and it isn't promoting equality at all. It's just promoting that gay people are "different" and that they "aren't the same".

Post #69 » by **MickeyDavis** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:32 pm

If the personal comments, baiting and insults don't stop I'll have to lock this up and/or do some suspensions. I don't want to do either.

Newz · Post #70 » by **Newz** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:35 pm

MickeyDavis wrote:If the personal comments, baiting and insults don't stop I'll have to lock this up and/or do some suspensions. I don't want to do either.

I'm not trying to make personal comments, bait or insult Kerb at all. (I assume this is what you are referring to)

Kerb, if you feel that I have personally insulted you at all then my bad man. I think we both have similar views on the subject, we just have very different opinions of how to handle it.

Kerb Hohl · Post #71 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:40 pm

Newz wrote:
There is still a small subset of older folks or ignorant folks that say racial things. It took forever for some people to be OK with black quarterbacks, coaches, whatever. You and me? We grew up post Jackie Robinson. We think it's weird that people ever cared about that stuff. Good for us. However, the gay rights movement in sports is 30-40 years behind that curve. Younger generations either care or have never seen this. It's something that if he held hands with a guy after the game, he would take incredible emotional damage from if he told this to nobody. You're oversimplifying this if you think it's not a big deal to the nation and league.

You think it's weird that people ever cared about racism? That's strange as it's perfectly clear to me why people cared a lot about racism and helping to get rid of it. You are right that this isn't even close to Jackie Robinson. I honestly think it's insulting to Jackie Robinson and the struggle he went through to even compare the two.

I think it's perfectly fine that you think I'm oversimplifying it. If you want to go on about hetrosexual and homosexual should be treated the same and then have a month worth of media coverage every time that an athlete or celebrity announces that they are gay, then that's fine. But that isn't at all the definition of equality and it isn't promoting equality at all. It's just promoting that gay people are "different" and that they "aren't the same".

It's strange because they made a movie about Jackie Robinson. He got plenty if modern media attention, too. He wasn't trying to make a scene about it but it was a big deal to people.

Again, you may think you want to treat them the same. Of course you and I do. 80% of America does.

I ask you this, why has nobody in the NFL run to the sideline and kissed their boyfriend? It's a big deal, man. Look no further than our GM of the Packers and owner of the Bucks. Maybe both really are guys that are into women and enjoy solitude. However, if the assumptions are true, why haven't they been able to publicly walk around holding hands with their mate? It's not socially accepted enough yet. Nobody in the NFL has openly stated it and a percentage of the players may take issue, It's a courageous move for him and opens the door to others.

People have committed suicide over hiding this stuff. It's a big deal for a world that seemingly still has some closed doors in it be explored on a national stage.

Kerb Hohl · Post #72 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:40 pm

I don't feel personal insult either haha.

Newz · Post #73 » by **Newz** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:51 pm

Kerb Hohl wrote:It's strange because they made a movie about Jackie Robinson. He got plenty if modern media attention, too. He wasn't trying to make a scene about it but it was a big deal to people.

But the struggle that he went through isn't even remotely close to the struggle that this guy is going to have to go through... if he is going to have to struggle at all. This guys college team supported him when he came out, in your own words 80% of America supports him or just doesn't care (I have no idea if that's a real figure), he has the Internet full of people supporting him, he has coverage on national news networks supporting him, he has coaches in the NFL supporting him and he has the guy running the league he is trying to get a job in supporting him.

I really, honestly don't view those situations as even close to one another. Maybe Jackie Robinson had way more support, way more backing and way less hate than I ever thought he did. But everything I have ever read, watched or learned about him makes it seem like his struggle was significantly more difficult than this young mans.

Again, you may think you want to treat them the same. Of course you and I do. 80% of America does.

I ask you this, why has nobody in the NFL run to the sideline and kissed their boyfriend? It's a big deal, man. Look no further than our GM of the Packers and owner of the Bucks. Maybe both really are guys that are into women and enjoy solitude. However, if the assumptions are true, why haven't they been able to publicly walk around holding hands with their mate? It's not socially accepted enough yet. Nobody in the NFL has openly stated it and a percentage of the players may take issue, It's a courageous move for him and opens the foot to others.

I have absolutely no idea who is and is not gay in the NFL, so I couldn't tell you if someone has passed up the opportunity to kiss their boyfriend on the sideline after a game. I also have no idea if Herb Kohl and Ted Thompson are gay... but I think that's a somewhat offensive viewpoint that some people have to view them that way just because they aren't married, are older and don't go out much. Maybe they are, I certainly wouldn't know and I wouldn't assume they are gay based off of things like that.

I guess I don't think you or I are fully qualified enough to talk about what does and what would happen in an NFL locker room with a gay teammate since we aren't part of an NFL locker room (Unless you are an NFL player and I don't know about it

). But you seem to believe that the sport has at least a percentage of people who are bigoted towards gays, which is probably true and probably won't even change. Just like racism will likely never be fully resolved.

What I do know is he played the sport in college with high level athletes in the same type of atmosphere. He told them he was gay and his teammates as well as his coaches both supported him. I don't see why it's so outrageous to believe it's going to happen on a professional level either... gay people go into their jobs on a daily basis and are fully accepted. I know, I work with several of them.

Kerb Hohl · Post #74 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:58 pm

Newz wrote:
Kerb Hohl wrote:It's strange because they made a movie about Jackie Robinson. He got plenty if modern media attention, too. He wasn't trying to make a scene about it but it was a big deal to people.

But the struggle that he went through isn't even remotely close to the struggle that this guy is going to have to go through... if he is going to have to struggle at all. This guys college team supported him when he came out, in your own words 80% of America supports him or just doesn't care (I have no idea if that's a real figure), he has the Internet full of people supporting him, he has coverage on national news networks supporting him, he has coaches in the NFL supporting him and he has the guy running the league he is trying to get a job in supporting him.

I really, honestly don't view those situations as even close to one another. Maybe Jackie Robinson had way more support, way more backing and way less hate than I ever thought he did. But everything I have ever read, watched or learned about him makes it seem like his struggle was significantly more difficult than this young mans.

Again, you may think you want to treat them the same. Of course you and I do. 80% of America does.

I ask you this, why has nobody in the NFL run to the sideline and kissed their boyfriend? It's a big deal, man. Look no further than our GM of the Packers and owner of the Bucks. Maybe both really are guys that are into women and enjoy solitude. However, if the assumptions are true, why haven't they been able to publicly walk around holding hands with their mate? It's not socially accepted enough yet. Nobody in the NFL has openly stated it and a percentage of the players may take issue, It's a courageous move for him and opens the foot to others.

I have absolutely no idea who is and is not gay in the NFL, so I couldn't tell you if someone has passed up the opportunity to kiss their boyfriend on the sideline after a game. I also have no idea if Herb Kohl and Ted Thompson are gay... but I think that's a somewhat offensive viewpoint that some people have to view them that way just because they aren't married, are older and don't go out much. Maybe they are, I certainly wouldn't know and I wouldn't assume they are gay based off of things like that.

I guess I don't think you or I are fully qualified enough to talk about what does and what would happen in an NFL locker room with a gay teammate since we aren't part of an NFL locker room (Unless you are an NFL player and I don't know about it ). But you seem to believe that the sport has at least a percentage of people who are bigoted towards gays, which is probably true and probably won't even change. Just like racism will likely never be fully resolved.

What I do know is he played the sport in college with high level athletes in the same type of atmosphere. He told them he was gay and his teammates as well as his coaches both supported him. I don't see why it's so outrageous to believe it's going to happen on a professional level either... gay people go into their jobs on a daily basis and are fully accepted. I know, I work with several of them.

Yes, in the your and my workplace it is generally accepted.

Here's this:

http://deadspin.com/nfl-executives-say-the-league-isnt-ready-for-michael-s-1519784781

Here are the CEOs and owners of his place of work saying it may be a tough atmosphere. So there's that.

I wasn't making assumptions that TT and Herb are gay because of their general lifestyle...a lot of people think they are, they are just afraid to come out with it (sorry if they aren't) because it is not as accepted in life. Just because you and I aren't homophobic doesn't mean there isn't an issue with it. There were a ton of young, non-racist people when Jackie Robinson entered baseball. Race and sexual orientation isn't an apples to apples comparison but acting as if it's just something that is "in the bedroom" and isn't that big of a deal for somebody to reveal is I think the sticking point here.

And no, I'm not putting him on the same pedestal as Jackie Robinson, but it's a struggle and big step. There were a ton of black players in other sports and other walks of life. Baseball was a little behind the times itself. It's not like Jackie Robinson was "me against the world" either, but no, Michael Sam definitely isn't walking into as much of a firestorm. That is true.

KidA24 · Post #75 » by **KidA24** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:11 pm

1) His college team accepting it as shocking, but they also were college scholarship players, and he was the best defensive player on the team. Younger people, and college students are generally much more liberal and people in their 20's have lived their whole lives with LGBT people 'out' of the closet around them.

I commend that you think that he won't get any abuse or this isn't a big deal, but the fact is, he will. From opposing fans, from an owner or two or ten, and most of all, from the opposing team.

If you don't think he's gonna be called every homophobic name under the sun, or you don't think that's a big deal, I'm not sure what to tell you.

emunney · Post #76 » by **emunney** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:13 pm

Newz, it's important for homosexuality to be normalized across culture the same way it has been for you. It's great that you don't see it as a big deal, but the big deal isn't about you and it isn't about sexuality. It's about humanity and normalization. There are many people who view gays as Others. Society needs people to come out of the closet not for you and not for themselves, but so that people can see that they are not dangerous and they are not stereotypes. That they're not different. They're just people.

And THEN everybody can get over it and move on. It's great that you have, but it's clear from all the quotes coming from anonymous personnel men that there are a lot of people in sports who still think homosexuality is a problem that must be managed.

Kerb Hohl · Post #77 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:16 pm

And by the way, one guy I used to work with, he came out to me. He was very open about it to our small group of coworkers. Like you, I got it and we were great friends. Unfortunately, he was very afraid to tell anyone else in the office or the corporate world of it.

It may be fairly socially acceptable but it's not worldwide. If the world was filled with 6 billion Newzs we'd have a lot of Jermichael Finley doubters and a world where nobody would even bother to mention their orientation. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. Between the fans, other players, and owners, his self esteem and ability to succeed is going to be affected by this. Just ask Kerry Rhodes. I think that's what you have to notice. Maybe you are enlightened enough to not care that someone is gay or that when you say "thug" it is colorless. However, I can tell you that there are way too many people that will make it matter or worse, negatively affect his life because of it.

th87 · Post #78 » by **th87** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:21 pm

In a perfect world, sure, everyone would be equal and nothing would be said if a player brought his boyfriend/husband to awards ceremonies, for example.

But that's not the world we live in, unfortunately. Today, this is a big deal. Gay people have been openly ostracized pretty recently (and still are by some) and the "old guard" is still hostile (like the Vikings coaches). Same-sex marriage is still not allowed everywhere. A large sector of the American public is anti.

The Blake Bortles example is ridiculous, and I'm surprised anyone would equate it to this. The majority of people have the same sexual preference as him and no one would say anything to him for it. For Michael Sam? He couldn't even tell anyone at all for fear of being ostracized. Do you not see the difference, Newz?

It's a relatively recent phenomenon that people feel safe enough to come out to society at large. And this still has yet to extend into the NFL. So for a soon-to-be NFL player to finally be able to freely express who he is is an unprecedented event. Of course the media would cover it.

It should always be a big deal when a minority group starts to achieve something that the majority group already enjoys. It means society is about to take a step forward.

emunney · Post #79 » by **emunney** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:26 pm

Oh, also, the biggest differences between Michael Sam and Jackie Robinson are (not in order):

1) Jackie Robinson didn't have a choice as far as "coming out".
2) Jackie Robinson played his first game almost 17 years BEFORE the Civil Rights Act. Institutional racism was overt and accepted as righteous by a large parts of the population. The climate for gays today is really not even close. Although I'm sure there are bigots who'll try to **** with Sam.
3) This is kind of an overlooked one in the other direction, but Jackie Robinson didn't have to worry about telling his friends and family that he was black. Maybe Sam didn't either, but that's something very real facing gay people.
4) Jackie Robinson was an elite player from day one. This meant a lot more attention both good and bad.

Kerb Hohl · Post #80 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:29 pm

emunney wrote:Oh, also, the biggest differences between Michael Sam and Jackie Robinson are (not in order):

1) Jackie Robinson didn't have a choice as far as "coming out".
2) Jackie Robinson played his first game almost 17 years BEFORE the Civil Rights Act. Institutional racism was overt and accepted as righteous by a large parts of the population. The climate for gays today is really not even close. Although I'm sure there are bigots who'll try to **** with Sam.
3) This is kind of an overlooked one in the other direction, but Jackie Robinson didn't have to worry about telling his friends and family that he was black. Maybe Sam didn't either, but that's something very real facing gay people.
4) Jackie Robinson was an elite player from day one. This meant a lot more attention both good and bad.

Yeah I definitely wasn't trying to equate them. A lot of differences. The one similarity is it takes one person "breaking the barrier" for others to become comfortable with it.