Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2)

[pineappleheadindc]

http://fansided.com/2014/02/10/nba-trade-rumors-washington-wizards-looking-trade-point-guard/#!u77df

Ernie trying to correct another gaff, can he work any magic?

If this public admission of Grunfeld's screw up in signing Maynor (plus drafting Veseley at #6) isn't enough to get Ernie fired, I can only conclude that EG has photos of Uncle Ted smoking ice or sexing a barnyard animal.

[payitforward]

Wait a minute. Jae Crowder is too short to be any good, but Trevor Booker is worth trading up for?

What the hell?

Actually, Trevor Booker *was* worth trading up for. Just as Crowder is *not* too short.

Trading up for Booker was the single best non-default draft move (default=picking Wall and Beal) Ernie has made in his entire tenure as the Wizards GM -- and, since it really wasn't all that big a deal, what does that tell you?

What else might you point to? Picking Dray deep in R2? Dom McGuire? Trading the #5 in '04 for Antawn? You want to depress yourself? Make a list of all Ernie's draft picks.

Peter John Ramos, Andray Blatche, Oleksiy Pecherov, Vladimir Vereemenko, Nick Young, Dom McGuire, JaVale McGee, John Wall, Kevin Seraphin, Trevor Booker, "H" N'Diaye, Jan Vesely, Chris Singleton, Shelvin Mack, Bradley Beal, Tomas Satoransky, Otto Porter, Glen Rice. He also traded away a 5th pick and 3 useful R2 picks.

I've bolded the picks that I would qualify as "good" -- a) for the spot where the guy was taken and b) didn't wind up costing us $20m to get rid of him! (I'm leaving Porter as an unknown...)

Given that Wall was the guy every GM would have taken #1 that year, and ditto Beal at #3 a couple of years later, this is a record of incredible futility....

[TGW]

Javale was a good pick at #17. Other than that, you're pretty much right.

[mhd]

Wait a minute. Jae Crowder is too short to be any good, but Trevor Booker is worth trading up for?

What the hell?

Actually, Trevor Booker *was* worth trading up for. Just as Crowder is *not* too short.

Trading up for Booker was the single best non-default draft move (default=picking Wall and Beal) Ernie has made in his entire tenure as the Wizards GM -- and, since it really wasn't all that big a deal, what does that tell you?

What else might you point to? Picking Dray deep in R2? Dom McGuire? Trading the #5 in '04 for Antawn? You want to depress yourself? Make a list of all Ernie's draft picks.

Peter John Ramos, Andray Blatche, Oleksiy Pecherov, Vladimir Vereemenko, Nick Young, Dom McGuire, JaVale McGee, John Wall, Kevin Seraphin, Trevor Booker, "H" N'Diaye, Jan Vesely, Chris Singleton, Shelvin Mack, Bradley Beal, Tomas Satoransky, Otto Porter, Glen Rice. He also traded away a 5th pick and 3 useful R2 picks.

I've bolded the picks that I would qualify as "good" -- a) for the spot where the guy was taken and b) didn't wind up costing us $20m to get rid of him! (I'm leaving Porter as an unknown...)

Given that Wall was the guy every GM would have taken #1 that year, and ditto Beal at #3 a couple of years later, this is a record of incredible futility....

I would say Blatche was a great pick. Anytime you can pick a longterm NBA player in the 2nd round, its a great pick. (The stupid decision was extending him for 5 years, 35 years).

Nick Young was also a good pick. EG passed on Bellinelli (bounced around), Dudley, Wilson Chandler, Afflalo, as comparable wings. Young is still in the league (and probably next year with his inflated stats).

McGee was a good pick. We all know his potential. He might be an idiot on defense, but again, for a mid to late 1st, to be in the NBA (on a 2nd contract), it was a good pick.

[hands11]

http://fansided.com/2014/02/10/nba-trade-rumors-washington-wizards-looking-trade-point-guard/#!u77df

Ernie trying to correct another gaff, can he work any magic?

BENO

He was the one they actually had a chance of getting out of Collison, Nate and him and that's who I thought they would land. Not the best option but better then what they had and better then Maynor.

Better late then never.

And EG should still have some contacts in NY.

[hands11]

http://fansided.com/2014/02/10/nba-trade-rumors-washington-wizards-looking-trade-point-guard/#!u77df

Ernie trying to correct another gaff, can he work any magic?

If this public admission of Grunfeld's screw up in signing Maynor (plus drafting Veseley at #6) isn't enough to get Ernie fired, I can only conclude that EG has photos of Uncle Ted smoking ice or sexing a barnyard animal.

I'm hoping its more simple then that. He has a contract. Good news is it expires this year.

I never thought he would get fired before it was up. The countdown was just cathartic for those that needed a release. But it was always nothing more then a dream for them. It was never going to happen.

[JonathanJoseph]

Soooooo Ernie Grunfeld gave away Kendall Marshall (PER 15.19), gave away Shannon Brown, gave away Shelvin Mack (PER 15.18) TWICE to sign Eric Maynor (PER 6.15) to a 2 year deal and now he wants to GIVE UP AN ASSET to upgrade at backup PG?

It's unfathomable that EG is allowed to continue as GM.

[Kanyewest]

Have you ever followed up with them? How do they like their decision in retrospect?

The topic came up earlier in the season. The conversation was just about as infuriating as the "the stats say he's good, but we think he's too short to be any good -- even though he's tough, strong, hard-working, competitive, has great character and has been a leader on every team he's ever been on (and oh yeah, his dad's a great guy too)" conversation.

Basically, it was the "he wouldn't have been a good fit in our system" pablum. They're really happy he's doing well in Dallas, though.

What do they see in Santoransky and how he fits in? That he's a tall point guard so he'll be the next Magic Johnson?

[Kanyewest]

http://fansided.com/2014/02/10/nba-trade-rumors-washington-wizards-looking-trade-point-guard/#!u77df

Ernie trying to correct another gaff, can he work any magic?

EG should go the D-league route. He did find Shaun Livingston once upon a time.

[mohammed10]

EG should go the D-league route. He did find Shaun Livingston once upon a time.

A blind pig finds an acorn every now and then. Doesn't mean Stevie Wonder should be our GM (though I may consider it, given Ernie's track record).

[Zonkerbl]

Wait a minute. Jae Crowder is too short to be any good, but Trevor Booker is worth trading up for?

What the hell?

Actually, Trevor Booker *was* worth trading up for. Just as Crowder is *not* too short.

Trading up for Booker was the single best non-default draft move (default=picking Wall and Beal) Ernie has made in his entire tenure as the Wizards GM -- and, since it really wasn't all that big a deal, what does that tell you?

What else might you point to? Picking Dray deep in R2? Dom McGuire? Trading the #5 in '04 for Antawn? You want to depress yourself? Make a list of all Ernie's draft picks.

Peter John Ramos, Andray Blatche, Oleksiy Pecherov, Vladimir Vereemenko, Nick Young, Dom McGuire, JaVale McGee, John Wall, Kevin Seraphin, Trevor Booker, "H" N'Diaye, Jan Vesely, Chris Singleton, Shelvin Mack, Bradley Beal, Tomas Satoransky, Otto Porter, Glen Rice. He also traded away a 5th pick and 3 useful R2 picks.

I've bolded the picks that I would qualify as "good" -- a) for the spot where the guy was taken and b) didn't wind up costing us $20m to get rid of him! (I'm leaving Porter as an unknown...)

Given that Wall was the guy every GM would have taken #1 that year, and ditto Beal at #3 a couple of years later, this is a record of incredible futility....

What's depressing about this list is the number of good picks that were wasted by mismanagement.

Blatche was a BRILLIANT pick. And it turns out he WAS worth a decent contract. EG overpaid but not by much. But he was mishandled somehow (I'm not psychic so I don't know what was said). Crawford isn't on this list (EG didn't draft him) but he was mishandled too. Shelvin Mack would be useful on this roster now.

[payitforward]

Wait a minute. Jae Crowder is too short to be any good, but Trevor Booker is worth trading up for?

What the hell?

Actually, Trevor Booker *was* worth trading up for. Just as Crowder is *not* too short.

Trading up for Booker was the single best non-default draft move (default=picking Wall and Beal) Ernie has made in his entire tenure as the Wizards GM -- and, since it really wasn't all that big a deal, what does that tell you?

What else might you point to? Picking Dray deep in R2? Dom McGuire? Trading the #5 in '04 for Antawn? You want to depress yourself? Make a list of all Ernie's draft picks.

Peter John Ramos, Andray Blatche, Oleksiy Pecherov, Vladimir Vereemenko, Nick Young, Dom McGuire, JaVale McGee, John Wall, Kevin Seraphin, Trevor Booker, "H" N'Diaye, Jan Vesely, Chris Singleton, Shelvin Mack, Bradley Beal, Tomas Satoransky, Otto Porter, Glen Rice. He also traded away a 5th pick and 3 useful R2 picks.

I've bolded the picks that I would qualify as "good" -- a) for the spot where the guy was taken and b) didn't wind up costing us $20m to get rid of him! (I'm leaving Porter as an unknown...)

Given that Wall was the guy every GM would have taken #1 that year, and ditto Beal at #3 a couple of years later, this is a record of incredible futility....

I would say Blatche was a great pick. Anytime you can pick a longterm NBA player in the 2nd round, its a great pick. (The stupid decision was extending him for 5 years, 35 years).

Nick Young was also a good pick. EG passed on Bellinelli (bounced around), Dudley, Wilson Chandler, Afflalo, as comparable wings. Young is still in the league (and probably next year with his inflated stats).

McGee was a good pick. We all know his potential. He might be an idiot on defense, but again, for a mid to late 1st, to be in the NBA (on a 2nd contract), it was a good pick.

Yeah, I was cheating in the case of Blatche; as a pick, no question, he was a good value. But I don't think Nick was a good pick -- his college numbers weren't good and showed no trend of improvement.

Above all, I disagree about McGee. For starters, his college numbers gave me no reason to pick him. His being on a 2d contract... big deal.

Above all, you have to look at a pick based on what other moves were available. Take a look at the maneuvering in the 2d half of that round 1 and the top of round 2 -- particularly the moves Morey made. It would have been child's play to come out of that draft with Batum, DeAndre Jordan (who looked like a better prospect than McGee to me!), and one of George Hill or Mario Chalmers -- and that's what I wanted to do at the time.

So, no, McGee was not "a good pick" -- despite his potential. From my pov, just as there's a difference between a good player and a good trade for that player, so there's also a difference between the quality of a player and the quality of the pick where you either take him or do something else.

[Nivek]

Have you ever followed up with them? How do they like their decision in retrospect?

The topic came up earlier in the season. The conversation was just about as infuriating as the "the stats say he's good, but we think he's too short to be any good -- even though he's tough, strong, hard-working, competitive, has great character and has been a leader on every team he's ever been on (and oh yeah, his dad's a great guy too)" conversation.

Basically, it was the "he wouldn't have been a good fit in our system" pablum. They're really happy he's doing well in Dallas, though.

What do they see in Santoransky and how he fits in? That he's a tall point guard so he'll be the next Magic Johnson?

Just generalities. They like him. They hope to bring him over at some point in the future.

[payitforward]

Blatche was a BRILLIANT pick....

I guess that if I'm distinguishing between the player and the pick of the player, as I did a moment ago, I have to agree that Dray was a good pick. But...

...it turns out he WAS worth a decent contract. EG overpaid but not by much.

I don't think he warranted anything close to what EG did. *Now* maybe he would -- he's obviously turned his career (maybe his life) around. That can happen when you're looking at losing the only thing you've ever been any good at!

Crawford isn't on this list (EG didn't draft him) but he was mishandled too. Shelvin Mack would be useful on this roster now.

The trade (of Hinrich) that got us Crawford and the 2011 #18 pick was brilliant -- one of Ernie's best moves, along w/ the trade that got us Hinrich in the first place. Basically for the meaningless rights to Vereemenko he got a #17 pick, a #18 pick, and Crawford. Unfortunately, he proceeded to turn those assets into just about nothing.

As to Mack -- picking a guy who's not a natural PG, then having no patience w/ him as he tries to turn into one, then cutting him twice, then watching him improve w/ the Hawks.... what a waste. It's also worth mentioning that he was never as bad with us as Maynor has been.

[payitforward]

The topic came up earlier in the season. The conversation was just about as infuriating as the "the stats say he's good, but we think he's too short to be any good -- even though he's tough, strong, hard-working, competitive, has great character and has been a leader on every team he's ever been on (and oh yeah, his dad's a great guy too)" conversation.

Basically, it was the "he wouldn't have been a good fit in our system" pablum. They're really happy he's doing well in Dallas, though.

What do they see in Santoransky and how he fits in? That he's a tall point guard so he'll be the next Magic Johnson?

Just generalities. They like him. They hope to bring him over at some point in the future.

Have they ever, in any sense, indicated that they think they made a mistake in passing someone over? Are they even grading their performance -- success ratio -- against other teams?

I think I read that Ted's son heads up the "advanced statistics" department -- that told me all I needed to know. I wonder whether he's still in place.

[Nivek]

Whenever I've asked about how they assess their own talent evaluation process, I get the same kind of answer I get to nearly every question I ask about any process: that they review everything regularly. I've gotten that response to queries about the medical staff, the scouting, the coaches, and the players.

In my dealings with them on the subject of "advanced stats," I couldn't say whether the issue is Leonsis' son or...something else. My belief is that it would be "something else." I found the front office's approach to statistical analysis and its use of data to be...hmm...not optimal. I've had zero dealings with Leonsis' son, so I can't speak to his analytic abilities.

[Zonkerbl]

Based on the actual decisions they make, whatever money they are spending on advanced stats is a complete waste. Statistics seem to have little to zero weight in their process.

DO YOU HEAR ME TED?

Basically, Mr. Leonsis, you gave EG a mandate to start incorporating advanced statistics into the decision making process, so EG went out, paid whatever to get all these advanced statistics cameras installed, hired a guy to analyze it, and then proceeded to IGNORE THE RESULTS OF THE ANALYSIS ENTIRELY.

Basically, EG is giving you the finger. The eagle. The little soldier.

Just, FYI.

[tontoz]

Whenever I've asked about how they assess their own talent evaluation process, I get the same kind of answer I get to nearly every question I ask about any process: that they review everything regularly. I've gotten that response to queries about the medical staff, the scouting, the coaches, and the players.

In my dealings with them on the subject of "advanced stats," I couldn't say whether the issue is Leonsis' son or...something else. My belief is that it would be "something else." I found the front office's approach to statistical analysis and its use of data to be...hmm...not optimal. I've had zero dealings with Leonsis' son, so I can't speak to his analytic abilities.

While I appreciate the inside info i think we could reach the same conclusion without it lol. It just amazes me that people who are so clueless get paid big money to make decisions about basketball.

[closg00]

Per this rumor, Andre Miller and Beno are the targets. Any bets that Ariza gets traded for a PG?
http://bleacherreport.com/tb/dcpR3?utm_ ... on-wizards

[Illuminaire]

Any time you can trade a productive starting caliber wing for a backup PG, that's a trade you have to make.