Rondo Trade Rumors & Ideas (update pg 8)

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Is Tony Parker easily a top 5 PG as of 2013-14? Right now he is 10th in PER among point guards and he is only playing 31 MPG so one could argue he might not even be holding up as well with more minutes. And this is without Rose in the equation this year but admittedly Rose may be washed up. Parker has a PER of 19.8 which is very good but just the 8th best PER rating of his career. I am not stating PER is a flawless stat but when someone is barely 10th in it with a better defender in John Wall right behind him, I just find it hard to say Parker has been having a top 5 PG season without question.

Wherever he should be legitimately ranked right now, Tony Parker I highly doubt is a top 7 PG 2-3 years from now. Most of the PG's that were top 7 in their mid 30's really had size and/or great shooting capability. Parker is certainly at least a good shooter but he still is far from great at shooting.

Folks may say well he is only declining a bit since he is battling injuries... Well injuries are one of the reasons why players decline in their 30's.

Frankly I think the Spurs should let Parker walk if Duncan retires after next year.

There aren't 5 other PG's in the league I would take to lead my team in the playoffs....which is all that matters. Same with Rondo. I don't care what John Wall or Kyrie Irving do in January, Feb or March. Playing all world in the regular season is totally different than in the postseason. Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter and Grant Hill are perfect examples. Trading Rondo because he is 28 is silly. With today's equipment and supplements that would be like trading a 26 year-old in the 80's. Players are playing much longer and at a higher level longer today than they were in the 80's. Hell, KG's logged the most minutes in NBA history pretty much and still is a more than serviceable player. Rondo is still in the very early stages of his prime. Very early.

This is dumb

Your post is DUMB. State why it's dumb with some facts or educated opinon if you feel that way. You know why I said it????????? Because when those players were in their prime and considered ALL NBA 1st and 2nd team performers and all star game starters they failed numerous times to even win a playoff series and never matched their regular season stats in series. Do you want a player that performs 20% below his regular season stats in the postseason or a guy that exceeds his regular season stats? This is no different in any sport. Guys like Curt Schilling and Jon Lester that perform like Cy Youngs in the postseason are far more valuable than guys that win 20 plus when the pressure is off in the regular season and can't do squat when it counts in the postseason. Give me a guy like Rondo who I know comes to play in the postseason than a guy that shrinks when the pressure is on. Dumb???? LOL, please son.

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I'm sure the Celtics and Lakers wouldn't like trading with each other, but if you're going to rebuild you should do a complete rebuild. Sullinger, Olynyk, and 5 potential top 20 picks. If you draft well and spend the huge amount of money available wisely you can build a very good team very quickly starting in the 2015-2016 season. LA is a good enough free agent destination that they'd be confident they could keep Rondo. The Celtics like draft picks, and the Lakers don't. Logical trading partner in this situation.

So you're saying a team should trade its best player who is only 28 years old just for the sake of a "complete rebuild"?

Yea, considering he'll be atleast 30 by the time we legit compete again. He's speed is one of his best weapons and thats the first thing to go

And, btw, that is DUMB. I guess you would have traded Paul Pierce when he was 28 too since we sure as hell weren't ready to "legit compete again" when he was 28 and we were a scrub team. I guess you also would have never traded for a 30 plus year-old Ray Allen since he was a shooting guard and legs are the 1st thing to go on SG's too. Give me a break. 30 years old is not old in today's NBA.

[soxfan2003]

There aren't 5 other PG's in the league I would take to lead my team in the playoffs....which is all that matters. Same with Rondo. I don't care what John Wall or Kyrie Irving do in January, Feb or March. Playing all world in the regular season is totally different than in the postseason. Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter and Grant Hill are perfect examples. Trading Rondo because he is 28 is silly. With today's equipment and supplements that would be like trading a 26 year-old in the 80's. Players are playing much longer and at a higher level longer today than they were in the 80's. Hell, KG's logged the most minutes in NBA history pretty much and still is a more than serviceable player. Rondo is still in the very early stages of his prime. Very early.

This is dumb

Your post is DUMB. State why it's dumb with some facts or educated opinon if you feel that way. You know why I said it????????? Because when those players were in their prime and considered ALL NBA 1st and 2nd team performers and all star game starters they failed numerous times to even win a playoff series and never matched their regular season stats in series. Do you want a player that performs 20% below his regular season stats in the postseason or a guy that exceeds his regular season stats? This is no different in any sport. Guys like Curt Schilling and Jon Lester that perform like Cy Youngs in the postseason are far more valuable than guys that win 20 plus when the pressure is off in the regular season and can't do squat when it counts in the postseason. Give me a guy like Rondo who I know comes to play in the postseason than a guy that shrinks when the pressure is on. Dumb???? LOL, please son.

Your statement on Hill, Carter and McGrady just doesn't hold enough water. First of all thanks to being on a terrible team, Hill only played in 15 playoff games before he got hurt. His numbers in those games on average weren't much worse then his regular season numbers. After that Hill was no longer a high profile star because of injuries.

McGrady had some spectacular playoffs and played both ends of the court. It's a team game and McGrady didn't have the talent surrounding him in his prime either. I mean he went to Orlando and Hill was hurt.

Carter also had some very strong playoffs as well.

Criticizing these guys is part of the reasons why top 10 players bail on their teams when they aren't playing with much talent since fans criticize them for not winning when they are put in situations only players like Lebron/Shaq etc. could wins a decent amount of playoff games

[DoubleHappiness]

Rondo may play well into his thirties. He may not. Players are all very different in how their game ages. Also prime doesn't matter as much as how sharp the curve of the decline is. I would like to think Rondo's game will age gracefully, although I am biased.

Unfortunately DRose's game will probably not age well. Remember, Rondo stopped dunking so much before the ACL injury to conserve his body. He has a different mindset. His mindset and style mirrors a lot of point guards who were able to play top level ball for a long time. I don't really care about prime if he can play near prime for a long time. It's not like he is going to hit 30 and die.

Also. DRose is NOT coming back this year. It ain't even an outside shot. That's just Noah yapping.

[Stadium5]

There aren't 5 other PG's in the league I would take to lead my team in the playoffs....which is all that matters. Same with Rondo. I don't care what John Wall or Kyrie Irving do in January, Feb or March. Playing all world in the regular season is totally different than in the postseason. Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter and Grant Hill are perfect examples. Trading Rondo because he is 28 is silly. With today's equipment and supplements that would be like trading a 26 year-old in the 80's. Players are playing much longer and at a higher level longer today than they were in the 80's. Hell, KG's logged the most minutes in NBA history pretty much and still is a more than serviceable player. Rondo is still in the very early stages of his prime. Very early.

This is dumb

Your post is DUMB. State why it's dumb with some facts or educated opinon if you feel that way. You know why I said it????????? Because when those players were in their prime and considered ALL NBA 1st and 2nd team performers and all star game starters they failed numerous times to even win a playoff series and never matched their regular season stats in series. Do you want a player that performs 20% below his regular season stats in the postseason or a guy that exceeds his regular season stats? This is no different in any sport. Guys like Curt Schilling and Jon Lester that perform like Cy Youngs in the postseason are far more valuable than guys that win 20 plus when the pressure is off in the regular season and can't do squat when it counts in the postseason. Give me a guy like Rondo who I know comes to play in the postseason than a guy that shrinks when the pressure is on. Dumb???? LOL, please son.

Rondo is a player that other teams will openly back off of and give open looks during a playoff series.

Rondo.....our best player.......other teams back off of and HOPE he shoots jumpers...during PLAYOFF basketball. You cant even give our PG the ball at the end of a game during intentional fouls because he sucks at free throws too.

Do not compare Rondo to prime VC, let alone one of the best scorers ever to play the game in Tmac. It's easy to be an idiot an discredit them for never making it very far in the playoffs, especially when trying to fit an agenda. I'd have plenty of ammo against Rondo too if he ever had to try and make a run in the playoffs as the face of the franchise. But he hasn't, and even though he is most definitely impressive in playoff basketball...hes never had to do it while carrying the burden as "the man". Even when he was blowing up against Miami he still had Pierce and Ray to hit the big shots for him.

Anyone that has any idea about basketball would take Tmac over Rondo. Otherwise, you either dont even watch the games, or you're just an idiot

[pac213up]

I would certainly take TMac over Rondo. Vince Carter though....not so much. One of the truly overrated players of his generation. Absolute team killer with the way he played the game.

Back to Rondo, good to see him launching 3's.

[exculpatory]

This is dumb

Your post is DUMB. State why it's dumb with some facts or educated opinon if you feel that way. You know why I said it????????? Because when those players were in their prime and considered ALL NBA 1st and 2nd team performers and all star game starters they failed numerous times to even win a playoff series and never matched their regular season stats in series. Do you want a player that performs 20% below his regular season stats in the postseason or a guy that exceeds his regular season stats? This is no different in any sport. Guys like Curt Schilling and Jon Lester that perform like Cy Youngs in the postseason are far more valuable than guys that win 20 plus when the pressure is off in the regular season and can't do squat when it counts in the postseason. Give me a guy like Rondo who I know comes to play in the postseason than a guy that shrinks when the pressure is on. Dumb???? LOL, please son.

Rondo is a player that other teams will openly back off of and give open looks during a playoff series.

Rondo.....our best player.......other teams back off of and HOPE he shoots jumpers...during PLAYOFF basketball. You cant even give our PG the ball at the end of a game during intentional fouls because he sucks at free throws too.

Do not compare Rondo to prime VC, let alone one of the best scorers ever to play the game in Tmac. It's easy to be an idiot an discredit them for never making it very far in the playoffs, especially when trying to fit an agenda. I'd have plenty of ammo against Rondo too if he ever had to try and make a run in the playoffs as the face of the franchise. But he hasn't, and even though he is most definitely impressive in playoff basketball...hes never had to do it while carrying the burden as "the man". Even when he was blowing up against Miami he still had Pierce and Ray to hit the big shots for him.

Anyone that has any idea about basketball would take Tmac over Rondo. Otherwise, you either dont even watch the games, or you're just an idiot

Well written & totally true.

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This is dumb

Your post is DUMB. State why it's dumb with some facts or educated opinon if you feel that way. You know why I said it????????? Because when those players were in their prime and considered ALL NBA 1st and 2nd team performers and all star game starters they failed numerous times to even win a playoff series and never matched their regular season stats in series. Do you want a player that performs 20% below his regular season stats in the postseason or a guy that exceeds his regular season stats? This is no different in any sport. Guys like Curt Schilling and Jon Lester that perform like Cy Youngs in the postseason are far more valuable than guys that win 20 plus when the pressure is off in the regular season and can't do squat when it counts in the postseason. Give me a guy like Rondo who I know comes to play in the postseason than a guy that shrinks when the pressure is on. Dumb???? LOL, please son.

Rondo is a player that other teams will openly back off of and give open looks during a playoff series.

Rondo.....our best player.......other teams back off of and HOPE he shoots jumpers...during PLAYOFF basketball. You cant even give our PG the ball at the end of a game during intentional fouls because he sucks at free throws too.

Do not compare Rondo to prime VC, let alone one of the best scorers ever to play the game in Tmac. It's easy to be an idiot an discredit them for never making it very far in the playoffs, especially when trying to fit an agenda. I'd have plenty of ammo against Rondo too if he ever had to try and make a run in the playoffs as the face of the franchise. But he hasn't, and even though he is most definitely impressive in playoff basketball...hes never had to do it while carrying the burden as "the man". Even when he was blowing up against Miami he still had Pierce and Ray to hit the big shots for him.

Anyone that has any idea about basketball would take Tmac over Rondo. Otherwise, you either dont even watch the games, or you're just an idiot

I'm an idiot? **** you. Clown.

[sam_I_am]

I'd love to see highlights of consistent clutch play from TMac and VC in the playoffs that compares to the consistent brilliant clutch play of Rondo of the previous 6 years. I know in 2009 without KG the team still performed at as high a level as last year of big 3. I also know that last year without Rondo the team layed an egg against the pathetic Knicks in the playoffs. This year, Rondo is still playing at about 80% and with none of the speed and explosion he showed in his last playoff series. Yet, he still looks like a guy that could put up 15/12/8 as a pass first PG passing to a bunch of stiffs.

Ex, you know I respect you but the notion that Rondo is nothing without the big 3 just isn't true. He is the exact same player although 2 steps slower due to injury.

[Stadium5]

Your post is DUMB. State why it's dumb with some facts or educated opinon if you feel that way. You know why I said it????????? Because when those players were in their prime and considered ALL NBA 1st and 2nd team performers and all star game starters they failed numerous times to even win a playoff series and never matched their regular season stats in series. Do you want a player that performs 20% below his regular season stats in the postseason or a guy that exceeds his regular season stats? This is no different in any sport. Guys like Curt Schilling and Jon Lester that perform like Cy Youngs in the postseason are far more valuable than guys that win 20 plus when the pressure is off in the regular season and can't do squat when it counts in the postseason. Give me a guy like Rondo who I know comes to play in the postseason than a guy that shrinks when the pressure is on. Dumb???? LOL, please son.

Rondo is a player that other teams will openly back off of and give open looks during a playoff series.

Rondo.....our best player.......other teams back off of and HOPE he shoots jumpers...during PLAYOFF basketball. You cant even give our PG the ball at the end of a game during intentional fouls because he sucks at free throws too.

Do not compare Rondo to prime VC, let alone one of the best scorers ever to play the game in Tmac. It's easy to be an idiot an discredit them for never making it very far in the playoffs, especially when trying to fit an agenda. I'd have plenty of ammo against Rondo too if he ever had to try and make a run in the playoffs as the face of the franchise. But he hasn't, and even though he is most definitely impressive in playoff basketball...hes never had to do it while carrying the burden as "the man". Even when he was blowing up against Miami he still had Pierce and Ray to hit the big shots for him.

Anyone that has any idea about basketball would take Tmac over Rondo. Otherwise, you either dont even watch the games, or you're just an idiot

I'm an idiot? **** you. Clown.

Prime Tmac or Prime Rondo

Who would you rather have on your team for a playoff run?

[soxfan2003]

I'd love to see highlights of consistent clutch play from TMac and VC in the playoffs that compares to the consistent brilliant clutch play of Rondo of the previous 6 years. I know in 2009 without KG the team still performed at as high a level as last year of big 3. I also know that last year without Rondo the team layed an egg against the pathetic Knicks in the playoffs. This year, Rondo is still playing at about 80% and with none of the speed and explosion he showed in his last playoff series. Yet, he still looks like a guy that could put up 15/12/8 as a pass first PG passing to a bunch of stiffs.

Ex, you know I respect you but the notion that Rondo is nothing without the big 3 just isn't true. He is the exact same player although 2 steps slower due to injury.

In 2008 Boston won the Finals with KG. In 2009 despite the Celtics playing really well and Rondo improving quite a bit, Boston lost to a team(Orlando) that got soundly beaten in the Finals by the Lakers.

Again prime Rondo is a very good player with or without the Big 3 but just one that doesn't get overrated since his flaws aren't as hidden and he doesn't benefit from the publicity of being on a great team.

Let's look at 2009. Basically Rondo was the third focus of defenses back then in that series vs Orlando and would have been the 4th if Boston had KG. That is wildly different then what Carter, Hill and TMac had to put up with in their prime. Yes, in terms of non shooting, Rondo was excellent in the Orlando series but shooting is still a huge portion of the game and Rondo had a TS% of 42.7% in that series. Is that clutch? Did we ever call Dennis Rodman clutch for doing the non scoring things at a high level? And Rodman was actually a very efficient low volume scorer in his athletic prime with Detroit.

Hill/TMac/Carter were basically in situations in which prime completely healthy Rondo would be in right now with the Celtics current supporting cast of Bradley, Sullinger, Green and not much else. TMac, Hill and Carter carried some bad teams on their backs to the playoffs which is not easy to do.

Rondo has recently shown signs of adding the 3 point shot which would help him a lot but he has never had a single playoffs where he has shot very well. 50.9% is his career high in the playoffs for TS%.

Against I'd be the first to say, if you added a very good spot up 3 point shot to peak Rondo which I think was 2008-9 and 2009-10, you are talking the 3rd best player in the NBA right now only behind Lebron and Durant.

Rondo just didn't have that shot in his prime and the numbers from 3 and the FT line are the evidence of it. Hopefully he has it going forward if he remains on the Celtics since it would really help him transition into his 30's.

If Rondo or anyone else was "consistently clutch" Boston wins the 2010 Finals. No one is consistently clutch.

[pac213up]

Hill/TMac/Carter were basically in situations in which prime completely healthy Rondo would be in right now with the Celtics current supporting cast of Bradley, Sullinger, Green and not much else. TMac, Hill and Carter carried some bad teams on their backs to the playoffs which is not easy to do.
.

Carter never carried a roster like the current Celtics to the postseason.

[soxfan2003]

Hill/TMac/Carter were basically in situations in which prime completely healthy Rondo would be in right now with the Celtics current supporting cast of Bradley, Sullinger, Green and not much else. TMac, Hill and Carter carried some bad teams on their backs to the playoffs which is not easy to do.
.

Carter never carried a roster like the current Celtics to the postseason.

Well when Carter led the Raptors to the playoffs in 1999-2000, this was their starting lineup.

23 year old Carter
20 year old McGrady -- not yet a star but a good player.
31 year old Antonio Davis --- goood player but his best years were with Indiana. He just played a bit more minutes for a few years with Toronto since Toronto's bigs weren't as good as Indiana's.
36 year old Oakley -- pretty bad player by then. I'd take Humphies or Bass over that version of Oakley for sure.
35 year old Muggsy Bogues for 2 games and 29 year old Doug Christie for 1 game.

They also had a 37 year old Kevin Willis playing significant minutes off the bench.

If you wipe out Rondo and Carter and just replace them with average NBA players, those rosters are very comparable.

[BannersOnly]

Rondo is a player that other teams will openly back off of and give open looks during a playoff series.

Rondo.....our best player.......other teams back off of and HOPE he shoots jumpers...during PLAYOFF basketball. You cant even give our PG the ball at the end of a game during intentional fouls because he sucks at free throws too.

Do not compare Rondo to prime VC, let alone one of the best scorers ever to play the game in Tmac. It's easy to be an idiot an discredit them for never making it very far in the playoffs, especially when trying to fit an agenda. I'd have plenty of ammo against Rondo too if he ever had to try and make a run in the playoffs as the face of the franchise. But he hasn't, and even though he is most definitely impressive in playoff basketball...hes never had to do it while carrying the burden as "the man". Even when he was blowing up against Miami he still had Pierce and Ray to hit the big shots for him.

Anyone that has any idea about basketball would take Tmac over Rondo. Otherwise, you either dont even watch the games, or you're just an idiot

I'm an idiot? **** you. Clown.

Prime Tmac or Prime Rondo

Who would you rather have on your team for a playoff run?

Prime Rondo. Why? Because I've seen him consistently be a force in the postseason no matter who he's playing with. He played lights out against Chicago and D-Rose in 2009 without KG. The theory that Rondo owes all his postseason success to KG is wrong and that year proved it. There's a reason guys like Kobe, KG, Bird, Magic and Cousy love Rondo's game. It's the same reason why Melo wants the Knicks to trade for him. The kid is a player and is someone you can with with when it matters most.

TMac? Talent-wise he was better than Paul Pierce. Was he better than Pierce though??????? No. So you can sit back and act like I'm crazy for putting Rondo in the same sentence all you want, but if all you care about is "talent" than you would have traded Pierce for him back in the day too. I'm glad that never happened because Pierce proved to be a vastly superior "clutch" player than TMac ever was. It's not even debateable. I don't know why fans can't understand certain players are simply big time postseason performers. Robert Horry and Steve Kerr. Big time talents? No. Big time postseason "clutch" performers? Yes. Certain guys simply know how to deliver when it counts. I want guys like that. Rondo is one of those guys. TMac, as great a "talent" as he was, simply never lived up to his abilities when it matters. Period.

[sam_I_am]

I'd love to see highlights of consistent clutch play from TMac and VC in the playoffs that compares to the consistent brilliant clutch play of Rondo of the previous 6 years. I know in 2009 without KG the team still performed at as high a level as last year of big 3. I also know that last year without Rondo the team layed an egg against the pathetic Knicks in the playoffs. This year, Rondo is still playing at about 80% and with none of the speed and explosion he showed in his last playoff series. Yet, he still looks like a guy that could put up 15/12/8 as a pass first PG passing to a bunch of stiffs.

Ex, you know I respect you but the notion that Rondo is nothing without the big 3 just isn't true. He is the exact same player although 2 steps slower due to injury.

In 2008 Boston won the Finals with KG. In 2009 despite the Celtics playing really well and Rondo improving quite a bit, Boston lost to a team(Orlando) that got soundly beaten in the Finals by the Lakers.

Again prime Rondo is a very good player with or without the Big 3 but just one that doesn't get overrated since his flaws aren't as hidden and he doesn't benefit from the publicity of being on a great team.

Let's look at 2009. Basically Rondo was the third focus of defenses back then in that series vs Orlando and would have been the 4th if Boston had KG. That is wildly different then what Carter, Hill and TMac had to put up with in their prime. Yes, in terms of non shooting, Rondo was excellent in the Orlando series but shooting is still a huge portion of the game and Rondo had a TS% of 42.7% in that series. Is that clutch? Did we ever call Dennis Rodman clutch for doing the non scoring things at a high level? And Rodman was actually a very efficient low volume scorer in his athletic prime with Detroit.

Hill/TMac/Carter were basically in situations in which prime completely healthy Rondo would be in right now with the Celtics current supporting cast of Bradley, Sullinger, Green and not much else. TMac, Hill and Carter carried some bad teams on their backs to the playoffs which is not easy to do.

Rondo has recently shown signs of adding the 3 point shot which would help him a lot but he has never had a single playoffs where he has shot very well. 50.9% is his career high in the playoffs for TS%.

Against I'd be the first to say, if you added a very good spot up 3 point shot to peak Rondo which I think was 2008-9 and 2009-10, you are talking the 3rd best player in the NBA right now only behind Lebron and Durant.

Rondo just didn't have that shot in his prime and the numbers from 3 and the FT line are the evidence of it. Hopefully he has it going forward if he remains on the Celtics since it would really help him transition into his 30's.

If Rondo or anyone else was "consistently clutch" Boston wins the 2010 Finals. No one is consistently clutch.

OK Rondo wasn't consistently clutch in 2010.

Then what was Carter in 2010? Wince. And a veteran who should have been at his peak and was third option on Magic got outclassed by Rondo and the Big 3.

To be fair though, he was pretty much done as a superstar at age 29. At his peak, there were few guys with such a sweet outside shot and as fierce a finish at the rim. Pierce was one of them, although his skilled finish at the rim didn't make for highlight reels like Carter's insane dunks.

The point though is that if you choose Rondo or Carter or TMac or KG....or Kobe you end up nowhere. Only KD, Lebron and Paul bring you to the edge as a solo act. You need many stars if you don't the best player in the league. The big 3 needed Rondo - less so in 2008 but by 2011 they were crap without him. Once he dislocated elbow in 2011, a close series became a 4-1 cakewalk. In 2013 the Cs were a sad one and done without him.

Dumping Rondo and thinking you can win with Jabari Parker is a joke. We need Rondo, Sully, a home run 2014 draft pick and then we need to turn the rest of our assets into another stud player to make it work.

[pac213up]

Hill/TMac/Carter were basically in situations in which prime completely healthy Rondo would be in right now with the Celtics current supporting cast of Bradley, Sullinger, Green and not much else. TMac, Hill and Carter carried some bad teams on their backs to the playoffs which is not easy to do.
.

Carter never carried a roster like the current Celtics to the postseason.

Well when Carter led the Raptors to the playoffs in 1999-2000, this was their starting lineup.

23 year old Carter
20 year old McGrady -- not yet a star but a good player.
31 year old Antonio Davis --- goood player but his best years were with Indiana. He just played a bit more minutes for a few years with Toronto since Toronto's bigs weren't as good as Indiana's.
36 year old Oakley -- pretty bad player by then. I'd take Humphies or Bass over that version of Oakley for sure.
35 year old Muggsy Bogues for 2 games and 29 year old Doug Christie for 1 game.

They also had a 37 year old Kevin Willis playing significant minutes off the bench.

If you wipe out Rondo and Carter and just replace them with average NBA players, those rosters are very comparable.

That Raptors group had size, experience,depth, and was balanced. Antonio Davis was still a very effective defensive force, better than any big the Celtics have on that end. Christie I believe played more than one game. Also had guys like Dell Curry and Dee Brown. Not undrafted rookies and D Leaguers backing up the starters.

Even at 36 years old Oakley was a +7 per 100 possessions. Conversely when Bass has been on the court this season the Celtics are -9 per 100. The guy has been terrible with a capital T.

[Slartibartfast]

Carter never carried a roster like the current Celtics to the postseason.

Well when Carter led the Raptors to the playoffs in 1999-2000, this was their starting lineup.

23 year old Carter
20 year old McGrady -- not yet a star but a good player.
31 year old Antonio Davis --- goood player but his best years were with Indiana. He just played a bit more minutes for a few years with Toronto since Toronto's bigs weren't as good as Indiana's.
36 year old Oakley -- pretty bad player by then. I'd take Humphies or Bass over that version of Oakley for sure.
35 year old Muggsy Bogues for 2 games and 29 year old Doug Christie for 1 game.

They also had a 37 year old Kevin Willis playing significant minutes off the bench.

If you wipe out Rondo and Carter and just replace them with average NBA players, those rosters are very comparable.

That Raptors group had size, experience,depth, and was balanced. Antonio Davis was still a very effective defensive force, better than any big the Celtics have on that end. Christie I believe played more than one game. Also had guys like Dell Curry and Dee Brown. Not undrafted rookies and D Leaguers backing up the starters.

Yep. Christie started 73 games for them. Legit NBA role players and two star talents (even if T-Mac was still coming into his own).

Our roster's more similar to the 03/04 team that Pierce half-lead, half-stumbled into the playoffs with. Mediocre vets and green young guys sandwiching a struggling star (Pierce) and a headcase (Ricky Davis).

[soxfan2003]

Carter never carried a roster like the current Celtics to the postseason.

Well when Carter led the Raptors to the playoffs in 1999-2000, this was their starting lineup.

23 year old Carter
20 year old McGrady -- not yet a star but a good player.
31 year old Antonio Davis --- goood player but his best years were with Indiana. He just played a bit more minutes for a few years with Toronto since Toronto's bigs weren't as good as Indiana's.
36 year old Oakley -- pretty bad player by then. I'd take Humphies or Bass over that version of Oakley for sure.
35 year old Muggsy Bogues for 2 games and 29 year old Doug Christie for 1 game.

They also had a 37 year old Kevin Willis playing significant minutes off the bench.

If you wipe out Rondo and Carter and just replace them with average NBA players, those rosters are very comparable.

That Raptors group had size, experience,depth, and was balanced. Antonio Davis was still a very effective defensive force, better than any big the Celtics have on that end. Christie I believe played more than one game. Also had guys like Dell Curry and Dee Brown. Not undrafted rookies and D Leaguers backing up the starters.

Even at 36 years old Oakley was a +7 per 100 possessions. Conversely when Bass has been on the court this season the Celtics are -9 per 100. The guy has been terrible with a capital T.

You can't be serious on Oakley vs Bass. Oakley was absolutely AWFUL and Bass was much better even though Bass isn't great. Oakley had a TS% of 45.9% and a PER of 10.1. Bass PER of 15.1 and TS% of over 54% this year.

Are you trying to use differences in team offensive rating or real +- data? From what I can gather you are using the former and that stat suggests John Wall is arguably much better then Lebron James or last time I checked even Kevin Durant this year. That stat is worth looking at on occasion but even when defending John Wall I know those results are very misleading.

And if its actual +- then Oakley playing his minutes with Carter/Davis/McGrady obviously makes him look good when he was lousy. Oakley at one time was very good but he was washed up then. And obviously a player starting on a good team(Toronto) is going to have better numbers then a player Bass starting and sometime coming off the bench on a bad team.

Do to the nature of Bass game, it clearly isn't fair to trounce him for not doing well based upon Offensive rating since he does things like guard well on the perimeter and space the floor that don't show up in the stats sheet.

And I remember Oakley back then very well since I liked watching Marcus Camby/following the Raptors and Oakley got traded for Camby so I was always interested in how well he did with Toronto. Raptor fans quickly realized Oakley was very bad and extremely limited. The underrated Brandon Bass I hate to say it was better then a 37 year old Oakley who was justing hanging on the NBA with his strength and his reputation as an enforcer.

I agree that Davis was an effective defensive player but who would you rather have him back then him or Sullinger? A very strong case can be made for Sullinger. Either way, I think its close since it wasn't like Davis was Mutombo. For Christie I meant started 1 playoff game. He was awful so they went will an old very short PG.

Dee Brown was pretty damn mediocre back then. Consider him a bad version of Avery Bradley. He was shortly out of the league entirely. Dell Curry was 36 years old and averaged 7.6 PPG that regular season and he wasn't known for his defense even in his prime. He was a very good spot up shooter to keep the defense honest but frankly the Celtics D Leaguer is arguably better then him. It really is based upon what a team needs between those 2.

[Marley2Hendrix]

Well when Carter led the Raptors to the playoffs in 1999-2000, this was their starting lineup.

23 year old Carter
20 year old McGrady -- not yet a star but a good player.
31 year old Antonio Davis --- goood player but his best years were with Indiana. He just played a bit more minutes for a few years with Toronto since Toronto's bigs weren't as good as Indiana's.
36 year old Oakley -- pretty bad player by then. I'd take Humphies or Bass over that version of Oakley for sure.
35 year old Muggsy Bogues for 2 games and 29 year old Doug Christie for 1 game.

They also had a 37 year old Kevin Willis playing significant minutes off the bench.

If you wipe out Rondo and Carter and just replace them with average NBA players, those rosters are very comparable.

That Raptors group had size, experience,depth, and was balanced. Antonio Davis was still a very effective defensive force, better than any big the Celtics have on that end. Christie I believe played more than one game. Also had guys like Dell Curry and Dee Brown. Not undrafted rookies and D Leaguers backing up the starters.

Even at 36 years old Oakley was a +7 per 100 possessions. Conversely when Bass has been on the court this season the Celtics are -9 per 100. The guy has been terrible with a capital T.

You can't be serious on Oakley vs Bass. Oakley was absolutely AWFUL and Bass was much better even though Bass isn't great. Oakley had a TS% of 45.9% and a PER of 10.1. Bass PER of 15.1 and TS% of over 54% this year.

Are you trying to use differences in team offensive rating or real +- data? From what I can gather you are using the former and that stat suggests John Wall is arguably much better then Lebron James or last time I checked even Kevin Durant this year. That stat is worth looking at on occasion but even when defending John Wall I know those results are very misleading.

And if its actual +- then Oakley playing his minutes with Carter/Davis/McGrady obviously makes him look good when he was lousy. Oakley at one time was very good but he was washed up then. And obviously a player starting on a good team(Toronto) is going to have better numbers then a player Bass starting and sometime coming off the bench on a bad team.

Do to the nature of Bass game, it clearly isn't fair to trounce him for not doing well based upon Offensive rating since he does things like guard well on the perimeter and space the floor that don't show up in the stats sheet.

And I remember Oakley back then very well since I liked watching Marcus Camby/following the Raptors and Oakley got traded for Camby so I was always interested in how well he did with Toronto. Raptor fans quickly realized Oakley was very bad and extremely limited. The underrated Brandon Bass I hate to say it was better then a 37 year old Oakley who was justing hanging on the NBA with his strength and his reputation as an enforcer.

I agree that Davis was an effective defensive player but who would you rather have him back then him or Sullinger? A very strong case can be made for Sullinger. Either way, I think its close since it wasn't like Davis was Mutombo. For Christie I meant started 1 playoff game. He was awful so they went will an old very short PG.

Dee Brown was pretty damn mediocre back then. Consider him a bad version of Avery Bradley. He was shortly out of the league entirely. Dell Curry was 36 years old and averaged 7.6 PPG that regular season and he wasn't known for his defense even in his prime. He was a very good spot up shooter to keep the defense honest but frankly the Celtics D Leaguer is arguably better then him. It really is based upon what a team needs between those 2.

lol at using TS% and PER to evaluate charles oakley.

[soxfan2003]

That Raptors group had size, experience,depth, and was balanced. Antonio Davis was still a very effective defensive force, better than any big the Celtics have on that end. Christie I believe played more than one game. Also had guys like Dell Curry and Dee Brown. Not undrafted rookies and D Leaguers backing up the starters.

Even at 36 years old Oakley was a +7 per 100 possessions. Conversely when Bass has been on the court this season the Celtics are -9 per 100. The guy has been terrible with a capital T.

You can't be serious on Oakley vs Bass. Oakley was absolutely AWFUL and Bass was much better even though Bass isn't great. Oakley had a TS% of 45.9% and a PER of 10.1. Bass PER of 15.1 and TS% of over 54% this year.

Are you trying to use differences in team offensive rating or real +- data? From what I can gather you are using the former and that stat suggests John Wall is arguably much better then Lebron James or last time I checked even Kevin Durant this year. That stat is worth looking at on occasion but even when defending John Wall I know those results are very misleading.

And if its actual +- then Oakley playing his minutes with Carter/Davis/McGrady obviously makes him look good when he was lousy. Oakley at one time was very good but he was washed up then. And obviously a player starting on a good team(Toronto) is going to have better numbers then a player Bass starting and sometime coming off the bench on a bad team.

Do to the nature of Bass game, it clearly isn't fair to trounce him for not doing well based upon Offensive rating since he does things like guard well on the perimeter and space the floor that don't show up in the stats sheet.

And I remember Oakley back then very well since I liked watching Marcus Camby/following the Raptors and Oakley got traded for Camby so I was always interested in how well he did with Toronto. Raptor fans quickly realized Oakley was very bad and extremely limited. The underrated Brandon Bass I hate to say it was better then a 37 year old Oakley who was justing hanging on the NBA with his strength and his reputation as an enforcer.

I agree that Davis was an effective defensive player but who would you rather have him back then him or Sullinger? A very strong case can be made for Sullinger. Either way, I think its close since it wasn't like Davis was Mutombo. For Christie I meant started 1 playoff game. He was awful so they went will an old very short PG.

Dee Brown was pretty damn mediocre back then. Consider him a bad version of Avery Bradley. He was shortly out of the league entirely. Dell Curry was 36 years old and averaged 7.6 PPG that regular season and he wasn't known for his defense even in his prime. He was a very good spot up shooter to keep the defense honest but frankly the Celtics D Leaguer is arguably better then him. It really is based upon what a team needs between those 2.

lol at using TS% and PER to evaluate charles oakley.

LOL for you dismissing the importance of those stats especially when comparing a player to himself. In his prime Oakley had a season of PER 15.9 and TS% of 58%. Oakley in his prime was a very efficient role player that did OK by PER and very well according to TS. Oakley was just a good to very good player who stayed in the NBA too long to probably collect money.

OK here are his traditional stats for the 1999-2000 regular season.

30.4 MPG
6.9 PPG
41.8 FG%
77% free throw shooting on 1.1 attempt per game.
6.8 rebounds per game
3.2 assists
1.3 steals
.6 blocks

He has a win shares of 2.2. His offensive win shares were a NEGATIVE .7.

The guy was very bad and its no surprise in the last 4 years of his career, he played with 4 different teams.