Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time

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Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time

Larry Bird
65
42%
Lebron James
88
58%
 
Total votes: 153

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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#141 » by magicmerl » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:06 am

wigglestrue wrote:Okay, sooo...

Bird: Is he a Top 25 Defender of All Time? Top 50? Only in the Top 100?

I watched those videos you linked, and while there were some great plays in there (as you'd expect from the defensive highlights for a player) a lot of the gambling for steals could easily have compromised the defense by being out of position. That's something that's still true today.

I think that a lot of Bird's reputation comes down to the narrative of his rivalry with Magic. I have them both in the top 10, but really, if you're comparing Bird to Wilt/Shaq/Duncan/LeBron/Oscar, is he clearly better than all of them?

wigglestrue wrote:If he was as valuable on defense as it seems, then he's legitimately in the running for the #1 spot again, a la the tentative consensus that was budding circa 1986. He will ultimately always lose, in my book, to Jordan, Russell, and Wilt.

Yeah, I think that's a reach. Jordan is the consensus best, Russell if you want to be contrary and go by a 'look at these rings' standard, and perhaps LeBron has the potential to have a career trajectory that puts him in that stratosphere when all is said and done.

wigglestrue wrote:IMO, recognizing his unexpected defensive greatness forces us to move him ahead of Magic, 5 to 3 title advantage be damned.

wigglestrue wrote:But, so, even if the Top Four is (IMO, again) cemented as Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Kareem...instead of Bird being tied to Magic, usually to Magic's rear, now Bird can lay claim to a Top 5 spot. Not only that, but he separates himself from Magic. There wouldn't be a Top Four and then a Twosome of Bird/Magic. It'd be a Top Five of Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, and Bird...and then Magic...oh, and LeBron.

I agree with your top 6, but still have it in the order of Bird being 6th. Where do you have Oscar Robertson on your list?
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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#142 » by JordansBulls » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:27 am

wigglestrue wrote:So...I noticed Bird catch up to and pull ahead of James in the poll results the last few days. Am I actually swaying people? Or is it just, like, one night where a half dozen people just randomly voted one way versus the other?

Didn't realize it would be this close right now, but I guess James is in his 11th season as well.
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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#143 » by wigglestrue » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:40 am

magicmerl wrote:
wigglestrue wrote:Okay, sooo...

Bird: Is he a Top 25 Defender of All Time? Top 50? Only in the Top 100?

I watched those videos you linked, and while there were some great plays in there (as you'd expect from the defensive highlights for a player) a lot of the gambling for steals could easily have compromised the defense by being out of position. That's something that's still true today.


Yeah, uh, you either did not actually watch those videos, or you watched them with special contact lenses that filter out everything except for the bias you're confirming. One of the more remarkable things about Bird's steals is that they occur within a context of fundamentally sound defense. It only appears like he's gambling because his position on defense was Roamer, Helper, Free Safety. So, you think he's cheating, guessing. No. He is perfectly playing his part in a defensive strategy. And what he did was not guess, but anticipate. And so, sure, any lunging whatsoever could theoretically weaken a team's overall scheme for a split second. But that risk is made entirely irrelevant when the player "gambling" wins. Do you think Jordan gambled? Have you ever seen a Jordan defensive supercut? He's definitely one of the greatest defenders ever. But how is he not compromising the defense even more per your inexplicable standards for Bird? He's selling out as much as any player I've ever seen. But since it worked, who cares? Yes, since it worked, who cares.

Bird was killing defensive metrics his whole career, no matter who his teammates were. If he had been undermining his team's D by being too risky, then the stats would reflect that. It was, in fact, the exact opposite. According to the only two defensive metrics on the internet's premier basketball database, Bird was as positive a defensive presence to his team as any other player in the 1980's, excepting Hakeem. You think that would be the case if he were gambling? Come on. Some great plays? As you'd expect? People expect great defensive play from Larry Bird? THAT great, lol? Did you see some of those plays? Did you see which opponents they were against? Even by cherry-picking, one should not be able to compile a greatest hits for a player like that unless that player is truly great. Speaking of cherry-picking, I was disappointed by Jordan's defensive highlights. They were amazing, of course. It's like watching an alien. But I couldn't help notice that almost all of his highlights were big-time aggressive gambles for steals leading to one after another breakaway dunk, or they were blocked shots swatted out of bounds. There were definitely some brilliant moments when I felt like Jordan was exercising his basketball IQ instead of imposing himself with sheer athleticism. Jordan, when he wasn't getting rough, when he wasn't a dunk-happy cliche of himself, was the most graceful-moving player ever. Look, whatever works. Win however. At the same time, I didn't see many...I don't know...genius plays where I thought, "That's a play you'd never see on that Bird defense montage".

I think that a lot of Bird's reputation comes down to the narrative of his rivalry with Magic. I have them both in the top 10, but really, if you're comparing Bird to Wilt/Shaq/Duncan/LeBron/Oscar, is he clearly better than all of them?


Bird is clearly a better all-around player than Duncan and Oscar and Shaq, yes. IMO. Wilt and LeBron are more debatable. I have Wilt ahead of Bird. I have Bird ahead of LeBron, even more so now than a few weeks ago.

Yeah, I think that's a reach. Jordan is the consensus best, Russell if you want to be contrary and go by a 'look at these rings' standard, and perhaps LeBron has the potential to have a career trajectory that puts him in that stratosphere when all is said and done.


"In the running" does not mean "likely to win", just an FYI.


I agree with your top 6, but still have it in the order of Bird being 6th. Where do you have Oscar Robertson on your list?


He's in my Top 15, which to me is as elite as it gets. He'll never not be a First Tier all-timer. Well, I suppose there's one uber-level, the players who can put up a fair fight against Jordan, the Top 7 (used to be Top 6), and I do not have Oscar there. I have him somewhere between 8-15. Which is hardly an insult these days, considering the room on the list which we've all had to make for Duncan, Shaq, KG, Kobe, LeBron. 15 years ago, none of those 5 were worthy yet of being Top Anything, and players like West, Dr. J, and Oscar were absolute locks for Top Ten-ness.
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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#144 » by SideshowBob » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:57 am

I have James at 13 and Bird at 9.
But in his home dwelling...the hi-top faded warrior is revered. *Smack!* The sound of his palm blocking the basketball... the sound of thousands rising, roaring... the sound of "get that sugar honey iced tea outta here!"
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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#145 » by colts18 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:00 am

Bird top 25 defender? Lol. If he was top 25, why couldn't he guard Dr. J, King, Wilkins, Worthy, etc.? His era was stacked with really good offensive SF's and the Celtics were scared to put him on them.
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Re: Ynt: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Tim 

Post#146 » by arifgokcen » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:11 am

Whats your top 15 then I dont think there are that many players better than both lebron and bird they're both top 8-10 at the very least

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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#147 » by wigglestrue » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:46 pm

colts18 wrote:Bird top 25 defender? Lol. If he was top 25, why couldn't he guard Dr. J, King, Wilkins, Worthy, etc.? His era was stacked with really good offensive SF's and the Celtics were scared to put him on them.


Because that wasn't what made him a great defender. This is like asking, "Well, if Magic Johnson were such a great offensive player, then why couldn't he take Dennis Johnson or Maurice Cheeks off the dribble one-on-one, and why was he a 19% three-point shooter for the first 75% of his career?" Really, answer that question.

I'll help: Because in order to be a supremely valuable offensive presence, Magic didn't need to be able to break ankles or sink threes. Magic was below-average at a few basic things one might expect from One of the Greatest Offensive Players Ever -- and yet, he absolutely is. Magic wasn't a perfectly complete offensive player, let alone a perfectly complete player overall.

Bird may well be one of the most complete two-way players ever, and still be an imperfect defender. Despite being an average or below-average one-on-one defender. (Still quite better at individual defense than Magic was at outside shooting, though.) (Jordan lacked range, too, until what constituted range was conveniently repainted a couple feet closer. :) And he, of course, Jordan is almost certainly the GOAT on offense.)

Anyway, Bird's team defense was so awesome that even with his underwhelming individual D, his overall contribution on defense places him in the category of Great. So awesome it ranks him somewhere in the Top 25, Top 30, Top 40, or Top 50 of all defensive players ever. His greatness on both offense and defense puts him in rare company, a special subsection of the GOAT club reserved for players who were great on both ends of a basketball court which only has two ends. Magic was only great on offense. Russell was only great on defense. ("Only", lol.)

The reason why a player like Hakeem has been so beloved in these revisionary all-time conversations is that, well, if a player is one of the greatest ever on offense, and if the same player is also one of the greatest ever on defense and maybe even greater, then that player necessarily and almost, like, syllogistically has to be counted among the absolute very best in history, automatically. Just a matter of tweaking the dial.

(And there is something qualitatively special in any sport about a player who was great in two or three fundamental ways. The way we revere Willie Mays for being great at multiple things, slugging, running, fielding, throwing. Ah, but he was never a great pitcher, in fact he couldn't even pitch at all! Wait, why would anyone ever expect Mays to pitch? Because Babe Ruth could, was in fact an all-time great at both things, putting Babe qualitatively ahead of every other person who's played baseball. He's a special case, though. It's as if Mario Lemieux had spent a quarter of his career winning Stanley Cups as an ace goalie, lol. As of now, the closest to that in hockey has been Bobby Orr, the two-way player par excellence, a case for being the greatest on both ends of the ice, a la Jordan. Football, well, there's too much specialization in football. Perhaps there's a soccer equivalent, I don't know.)

Anyhow, Bird isn't that great on defense. He does have weaknesses (albeit not as bad as has been overstated up to now), and it's not like he belongs in any Top 10 Defender Ever conversation. As I mentioned, I think he barely cracks the Top 25. Honestly, I'll be happy if there's even just a realization in others that Bird is a Top 50 Defender. That's a much easier case to make, fewer all-timers for Bird to have to leapfrog and yet he would still be classified as a Great Defender.

And, mind you, I readily concede that I'm eager to anchor the expectations to the favorable end of the bell curve of all reasonable ways to assess Bird's defense. But it's not only because I'm a flaming homer, it's moreso in order not to shortchange Bird yet again. Let's spoil his defensive reputation rotten for a change, by asking whether he's Top 25 first and then, if not, settling on exactly where in the Top 50 he belongs. Because he clearly belongs in the Top 50, at the very least.
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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#148 » by wigglestrue » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:15 pm

If you are reading this thread closely, then in your mind Larry Bird's standing as an all-timer should be, like my status and location says, suspended, as in the air, hovering indecisively somewhere in the middle of the Top Ten, uprooted from the settled ground of longheld opinions. Subject to significant change. Pending!
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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#149 » by NYK 455 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:56 pm

LeBron is just as accomplished and is a better overall player. He gets the nod here.
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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#150 » by magicmerl » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:55 pm

wigglestrue wrote:Do you think Jordan gambled? Have you ever seen a Jordan defensive supercut? He's definitely one of the greatest defenders ever. But how is he not compromising the defense even more per your inexplicable standards for Bird? He's selling out as much as any player I've ever seen.

Yes, I do think that nearly every player who gets a lot of steals also created weaknesses in their defense that are not statistically credited to them when they attempt a steal and it fails. And that includes Jordan.

wigglestrue wrote:But since it worked, who cares? Yes, since it worked, who cares.

That's being results oriented. Take a journey with me to magical fairy land where only made field goals are recorded and attempts are not. Do you know who the best offensive players are? Well, good gracious, it's as easy as looking at points per game! SURELY those are the best offensive players, because otherwise they wouldn't have all of those lovely points? Allen Iverson is one of the greatest players of all time if all you go by is his youtube highlight reels.

My point is, the 'cost' of attempting a steal doesn't show up statistically.
wigglestrue wrote:Speaking of cherry-picking, I was disappointed by Jordan's defensive highlights. They were amazing, of course. It's like watching an alien. But I couldn't help notice that almost all of his highlights were big-time aggressive gambles for steals leading to one after another breakaway dunk, or they were blocked shots swatted out of bounds.

But by the same token, the majority of Bird's moments were doubleteaming a post player and stripping the ball off them.

wigglestrue wrote:Bird is clearly a better all-around player than Duncan and Oscar and Shaq, yes.

He's clearly a better all-around player than Kareem, Wilt and Russell too. Doesn't mean he's better than them.

wigglestrue wrote:And, mind you, I readily concede that I'm eager to anchor the expectations to the favorable end of the bell curve of all reasonable ways to assess Bird's defense.

Yes, I'm aware that that's the underlying thrust of your posts.

wigglestrue wrote:But it's not only because I'm a flaming homer, it's moreso in order not to shortchange Bird yet again.

Who is this legion of people shortchanging Bird? Last time I heard, he was on everyone's list as a top10 player all time.
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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#151 » by colts18 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:04 am

"I'll tell you what was really funny was . . . we always thought it was an insult when they put (Bird) on one of us, because he was the worst defensive player ever," Barkley said.
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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#152 » by ushvinder88 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:39 am

Lebron has eclipsed him, only nostalgia will continue to make bird comparable to lebron, when he isn't.
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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#153 » by wigglestrue » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:41 am

magicmerl wrote:That's being results oriented. Take a journey with me to magical fairy land where only made field goals are recorded and attempts are not. Do you know who the best offensive players are? Well, good gracious, it's as easy as looking at points per game! SURELY those are the best offensive players, because otherwise they wouldn't have all of those lovely points? Allen Iverson is one of the greatest players of all time if all you go by is his youtube highlight reels.

My point is, the 'cost' of attempting a steal doesn't show up statistically.


Ohhh...kayyy...annnd...why is this especially relevant to Bird? He wasn't a habitual overgambler. He was conservative, if anything. He's one of that last people we should suspect of having steals at the expense of fundamentally-sound team defense.

If you were just trying to rhetorically pwn me or whatever, you probably shouldn't bother, because it's not worth it. This forum deserves better. If you can pick out an overstatement here or a misinterpretation there, fine, please, by all means, correct me. I prize my corrigibility. But if you're merely trying to "score" on me based on semantics, then realize how annoying and useless that is. You are entirely free not to reflexively reject the lengthy, thorough, precise case made for Bird being a great defender. Be pithy, that's cool, but don't be shallow, please. Don't be lazy. I couldn't really find much to disagree with in your last reply. Because you were mostly just stating some really obvious stuff as if it were somehow contradicting me adversarially. Nothing you said challenged the essential arguments for Bird as a Top 25-50 Defender.
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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#154 » by wigglestrue » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:10 am

colts18 wrote:"I'll tell you what was really funny was . . . we always thought it was an insult when they put (Bird) on one of us, because he was the worst defensive player ever," Barkley said.


Yes, yes, and Dennis Rodman and Isiah Thomas said that if Bird were black, he'd be just another good guy. Barkley, Rodman, Isiah...these are exactly the kind of minds I trust for accurate assessments of reality. They had it the opposite, by the way. If Bird were black, we would be even a little more hyped about him. His whiteness gets in the way of appreciating his spectacular-ness.

And now, so, related to that, kind of: One good point raised by magicmerl is that it's hard to underrate a guy roundly judged to be Top 10. But would you be cool with Jordan being ranked, say, 6th or 7th? Wouldn't that be criminally, laughably underrating Jordan, even though it still puts him in the Top 10? So, it's possible to underrate an all-time great. Moreover, it's at the tippity-top when one or two spots means the world, is probably the equivalent in terms of importance as a 10-point swing for someone in the 40-60 range. If people have been judging Bird as a player based on a misreading of Bird as a subpar defensive presence, or as merely okay or pretty good or good or even very good -- as opposed to the epithet "great", which his overall defense deserves -- that would matter quite a bit to the kind of complex, super-informed Big Time Debates this board lives on, generates, advances in the name of basketball nerds everywhere. Seeing Bird accurately as a Great Defender instead of a Quite Good In Some Respects Defender would (or, SHOULD) have a major bearing on whether a lot of people rank Bird 10th or 6th, 8th or 5th, 6th or 5th, 12th or 7th. (Or, hey, 6th or 1st. ;) )It would forestall the now-obviously-premature coronation of LeBron as the GOAT forward, as it should. I mean, look, neophiles (who are well-represented here), n00bs (not too many here), LeBron fanboys (a handful), and hopelessly-subjective homers (a smattering) are gonna think what they're gonna think, regardless. They don't actually matter, lol. (Unless they're right, which they occasionally happen to be.) I want the 80th to the 99th percentiles of basketball obsessives to realize the truth about Bird, because it's that 20% who really comprise a legitimate, educated consensus.
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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#155 » by Gideon » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:29 am

Barkley's comment (from a few years ago) was given in the specific context that he was asked about Bird's comment that Bird was insulted when the other team assigned a white guy to guard him -- it was an off-the-cuff humorous response by Barkley, who is described as "tickled" in the article (http://www.utsandiego.com/uniontrib/200 ... allry.html), and it's completely unclear how serious it was meant to be. Maybe Barkley believed exactly what he said, or maybe he was just ribbing Bird? After all, Bird had just said he was insulted when white guys guarded him, so, since Bird himself is white, it was a pretty good opportunity for a crack. Unless Barkley was asked a follow-up or similar question in a more serious context (which I'm not aware of) there's no way to really tell.

Let's let look at some actual stats, though: In 33 games against Bird and the Celtics (there are another 11 from the early 80s that bbref doesn't have full game stats for), Barkley's teammate and top-15-all-timer, Dr. J, shot .477 from the field, compared to .509 overall during that time period. Barkley also shot considerably lower against the Celtics in the 30 games in which he and Bird played against each other (.535 vs Bird's Celtics and .576 vs. the rest of the league). Bird did guard both SFs and PFs based on matchups, but either way he would have to guard Dr. J or Barkley in games from 84 until Dr. J's retirement in 87, and, on average, Doc and Barkley both under-performed offensively in those games. And, just to be thorough, let's also look at Bobby Jones in games against Bird (since this was also a match-up at times in the early-mid 80s). Jones shot .475 against the Celtics in games in which Bird played, and .546 overall during the time from 81 (when the bbref full game stats begin) until his retirement in 1986. So, it seems that if any Philly forward during Bird's defensive prime was actually insulted to be guarded by Bird, that guy was oddly misinterpreting the situation.

That's the thing about Bird's defense -- there's a common narrative about it that's pretty negative, but that narrative just doesn't fit with any facts we have (nor IMO does it fit even remotely with widely available footage of, for example, the 81 PS, although I know that's much more subjective). And it's not surprising to me if this sort of false narrative extends to some NBA players, as they're not magically above such things. However, I've never seen any statistical evidence to back up this narrative... in fact, all of the stats point completely in the other direction.

Sure, stats like Drtg and DWS are flawed/imperfect, but why would their flaws somehow randomly end up benefiting Larry Bird vastly more than anyone else who ever played? Surely, that's not the most likely answer as to why Bird's defensive metrics are so outstanding. And the explanation that he benefited from his team's strong defense doesn't work either, because Bird has better defensive metrics than any of his teammates. And, if you look in the H2H finder and match him up with top players he guarded throughout his career, you just don't find anybody who regularly exploited him (or at least I haven't... not saying I couldn't have missed a player, but I checked lots of guys). Bird comes across very well defensively looking at defensive metrics and H2H match-ups. To me, that's much more convincing than an off-the-cuff comment made by another player, but...

Even if we both take Barkley's comment completely literally, and we also follow the "logic" that Barkley's opinion is important since he was a great player himself, here are some other things great players, most of whom are considered to rank well above Barkley on the all-time list, have said about Bird:

Magic Johnson called Larry Bird "the greatest basketball player ever" at Bird's retirement ceremony.

Just a couple of days ago, LeBron said that he ranks Bird as one of the top 3 players ever: http://nba.si.com/2014/02/11/lebron-jam ... ba-greats/

Bird is also in Kobe's all-time top 5: http://www.examiner.com/article/kobe-na ... ba-players

And, if you watch the 1987 ECF, Tommy Heinsohn (announcing the game) raves about how great Bird's defense is and how it's really the biggest way Bird is making a difference in the series. That statement is especially intersting because the series just so happens to include 3 of the greatest consecutive offensive close-out games in PS history (35.3 ppg, 10 rpg, 7 apg on .648 TS% against one of the best defensive teams in NBA history.) Sure, Heinsohn wasn't a player on Barkley's level, but he was an all-star PF in his day... and he was also a two-time title-winning coach, which is directly related to player analysis, and a qualification one could hardly imagine ever seeing on Barkley's resume.

On a final note, I was lucky enough over a decade ago to have the opportunity to spend time around some of the world's top athletes in another sport for a couple of years. While a few were very interested in the sport itself, including thoughtful analysis and evaluation, others voiced opinions about their peers (and about overall strategy) that were quite odd and/or even seemingly illogical a surprising percentage of the time. If a stranger had repeated many of those opinions on a board like this, posters would have thought it was a trolljob. These guys were excellent athletes, and some of their comments about the sport were, of course, the sort of perceptive stuff that only really top guys would notice... but other comments were just bizarre (and sometimes even factually wrong). A guy who many people literally considered #1 in the world in this sport at the time actually clearly stated more than once that he ranked a specific guy with a below-average rep and resume over another specific guy (who was near the top of the sport) and didn't even seem to realize this was a particularly odd opinion. His logic was that the below-average guy was "well-rounded" while the top guy had a less complete skillset (despite being indisputably excellent in certain important aspects of the sport). I think it's quite interesting and often valuable to hear what top players think about their fellow athletes, but I also think it's a big mistake to just take it as gospel. And, if none of that was convincing, just check out the 1969 MVP vote :D . (The award was voted on by the players at that time.)
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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#156 » by wigglestrue » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:57 am

Is it usually a good sign for a Player Comparisons thesis when you can keep diving into bkref and keep finding new angles to demonstrate how much you're right? :)

Question: Who are the greatest defensive forwards of all time? This is actually a pretty easy question to answer objectively, as long as we tinker with a few heuristics. There are only so many reliable ways for us to measure defensive greatness, anyhow.

Objective

· All-Defensive Team selections (nothing pre-1969)
· Defensive Player of the Year voting (nothing pre-1983)
· Defensive Win Shares (fairly reliable in the shot-clock era)
· Defensive Rating (fairly reliable in the shot-clock era)
· Steals (nothing pre-1974)
· Blocks (nothing pre-1974)
· Defensive Rebounds (not separated out until 1974)

Subjective

· Game footage
· Intuitive reasoning

Anyone want to sort those objective categories by number of selections/votes and amount of black/grey ink, weigh the various things reasonably against each other, and then sort whatever descending list of players you happen to come up with by position, either the traditional five positions or a more generalized positional breakdown? If no one feels like doing that, I will. I'll enjoy going one-by-one, forward-by-forward, deciding on the objective merits and a little well-reasoned qualitative analysis. But hey, off the top of my head, let's see how many forwards or small forwards would right now almost certainly be assumed (perhaps mistakenly, in some cases) to be a more valuable overall defensive presence than Bird. (Power forwards in italics. Players who were variously SF/PF a la Bird in half-and-half.)

· Tim Duncan (unless you view him as a misnamed center)
· Ron Artest
· LeBron James (if Bird is Top 25-50, LeBron is already Top 10-20, right?)
· Michael Cooper
· Dennis Rodman
· John Havlicek (except for when he was a SG)
· Kevin Garnett
· Bobby Jones
· Scottie Pippen
· Shawn Marion
· Julius Erving
· Dave DeBusschere
· Larry Nance
· Josh Smith
· Kevin McHale
· Gerald Wallace
· Andrei Kirilenko
· Bruce Bowen
· Dan Roundfield (my pick for Most Underrated Player Ever, perhaps)

· ...and...then who else? Karl Malone? Paul Silas? Tayshaun Prince? Horace Grant? Role players like Satch Sanders? Bird has a case against those guys, going by the only ways we can judge defense halfway-accurately.

That's about a dozen small forwards. About 20 forwards overall. So, no, okay, let's just dispense with figuring out if he's Top 25 overall on D for now, forget that rarified air. Let's just focus on Bird's place among forwards as an defender. It looks like Top 20 Defensive Forward is right there for him to lay claim to, no? That'd necessarily mean he was a great defender, right? Top 20 Defensive Forward?
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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#157 » by JordansBulls » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:47 pm

ushvinder88 wrote:Lebron has eclipsed him, only nostalgia will continue to make bird comparable to lebron, when he isn't.

Wait what?

How in the world is Bird not comparable to Lebron?
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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#158 » by ushvinder88 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:12 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
ushvinder88 wrote:Lebron has eclipsed him, only nostalgia will continue to make bird comparable to lebron, when he isn't.

Wait what?

How in the world is Bird not comparable to Lebron?

Because lebron is the better player under any objective metric, but of course mj fans will try their best to downplay lebron's peak considering that he is going to be the guy that is going to challenge for MJ's spot at #1, while bird is no threat to mj.

Better defender, better playoff performer, more mvps, and longevity will now be on his side once this season is over. Not to mention every advanced metric favours lebron by a noticeable margin.
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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#159 » by RSCD3_ » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:22 pm

ushvinder88 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
ushvinder88 wrote:Lebron has eclipsed him, only nostalgia will continue to make bird comparable to lebron, when he isn't.

Wait what?

How in the world is Bird not comparable to Lebron?

Because lebron is the better player under any objective metric, but of course mj fans will try their best to downplay lebron's peak considering that he is going to be the guy that is going to challenge for MJ's spot at #1, while bird is no threat to mj.

Better defender, better playoff performer, more mvps, and longevity will now be on his side once this season is over. Not to mention every advanced metric favours lebron by a noticeable margin.


I dont disagree with you but saying that he's not comparable is just silly. To someone who has a problem with others agendas, it looks a little bit hypocritical.

Also this is the PC board, most people who are obsessed with always comparing lebron to other greats and using it to derail threads and negatively criticize him are gone here soon.

I say this as a miami heat fan and one of james' bigger defenders here, but the way to establish lebrons' greatness is not to tear down other legends.



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Re: Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time 

Post#160 » by wigglestrue » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:31 pm

ushvinder88 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
ushvinder88 wrote:Lebron has eclipsed him, only nostalgia will continue to make bird comparable to lebron, when he isn't.

Wait what?

How in the world is Bird not comparable to Lebron?

Because lebron is the better player under any objective metric, but of course mj fans will try their best to downplay lebron's peak considering that he is going to be the guy that is going to challenge for MJ's spot at #1, while bird is no threat to mj.

Better defender, better playoff performer, more mvps, and longevity will now be on his side once this season is over. Not to mention every advanced metric favours lebron by a noticeable margin.


Every? Gee, actually, turns out that Bird owns LeBron in...defensive metrics. :lol:

Better playoff performer WHEN and HOW and AGAINST WHOM?

More MVP's is but one consideration, as is MVP voting, and when you have three or more MVP's, then it's not like there's significant separation between a three-time MVP and a four-time MVP, especially if the two players finished similarly in MVP voting otherwise. He's only a somewhat better defender than Bird, maybe actually not even that. Still being determined. Have you, uh, seen those defensive metrics?

Bird is "no" threat to MJ? I wouldn't go that far, not anymore. Face it, fellas, this thread ain't good news for either Jordan or LeBron fanboys. Or any fanboys, except Bird fanboys and Celtics homers like myself. But, hey, prove me wrong -- if you can't, then my bias is irrelevant.
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