ATFL Western: (4) john248 vs. (5) ThunderDan9

[MisterHibachi]

bastillon
TMACFORMVP
penbeast0: john248
ronnymac2: ThunderDan9
Doctor MJ: ThunderDan9
SideshowBob: ThunderDan9
Texas Chuck: ThunderDan9
therealbig3: john248

[ardee]

Don't agree on the years for Kareem

[/b]

This was 3-point era only.

Which other seasons could he have picked for Kareem?

[ThunderDan9]

TMACFORMVP

That's not fair. There should be a judge named LARRYFORGOAT or something. Or at least wigglestrue.

Just kidding, of course.

[SideshowBob]

Don't agree on the years for Kareem

[/b]

This was 3-point era only.

Which other seasons could he have picked for Kareem?

Forgot about that Yeah then I agree with the years obviously.

[TMACFORMVP]

**** I’m sorry guys. I’ve been busier than I thought, some stuff came up, and I haven’t even logged into RealGM the last week (which is rare). Why don’t ya’ll do all the matchups at one time?

I haven’t had time to read the other judges posts, but that’s how it should be anyway. Look both team’s write-ups were real good. I don’t need to go over how good both of these teams are, at least what their strengths are. Couple notes, I do think Bird is better at PF in these games; he’s easier to hide on defense, and more a mismatch on offense. Also, I think people in general underestimate Grant’s pick and roll defense…his quickness and ability to rotate was real nice. Maybe it’s not underestimated, but not talked about enough. I actually could see Grant checking TMac for stretches; TMac had an affinity to settle for the jumper too. But mainly, TMac loved playmaking off the pick and roll. Even if Dwight isn’t gonna do much versus Kareem h2h (I believe Kareem would have his way), he’s still going to be a force defensively in the pick and roll. Put him with Grant, and I think they’re well equipped to at least try to limit McGrady in a pick and roll based offense (who is prob the biggest mismatch on paper).

On the flip side, Porter is also really underrated. Price was better, but Porter was a monster playoff performer and real efficient himself….I could say he played with a playmaking wing like Drexler too, but Drexler wasn’t as dynamic with the ball as TMac was. Nance is also underrated, solid mid-ranger and a long athletic defender. So TMac/Kareem with Ray and underrated role players…****.

One thing I notice is that ThunderDan’s team is better on the boards. In fact, in a game like this, you could argue john’s team isn’t particularly good on the boards – Nance or Kareem were very good rebounders. On the flipside Dwight is elite, Grant was solid, but Bird was a very good defensive rebounder. That’s a definite strength.
And I’ve talked about the mismatch TMac creates for Dan’s team…this is going to be a problem, but I don’t think john’s team can necessarily guard Dan’s either. And that’s big, especially when you throw Bird at the 4, and King at the 3? How do you defend that?

One random thought that doesn’t have any bearing on this series is…I’ve always wondered about TMac with more talented teams. He had the entire game offensively (he was underrated in his ability to come off screens for the jumper), and is imo one of the best playmaking wings the game has ever seen in terms of his passing ability. His assist #’s don’t do it enough justice. But…he has a kinda meh attitude. And by that meh attitude, I mean he’s either too unselfish or he’s lazy. Because when Yao was there, TMac used to defer and not be as aggressive….it was almost as if he wasn’t playing with his full aggression b/c he knew Yao was there. He was different when Yao wasn’t there. When we got Artest in ’09, granted TMac was plainly injured…there were also times he’d not look to generate offense. Anyways, random thought – I think he’s fine on this team.

IMO these are two of the best teams…If I’m being honest, I’d choose both of those teams over other teams I’ve voted for in previous matchups.

I don’t think either team will stop each other. Each has something they can say, but for the most part…each team has glaring advantages they can take advantage of. I like john248’s talent more. I think his team works well and has a lot of volume that can pick up the slack with guys who can more or less take over games. But…I keep going back to ThunderDan’s team. I just think it executes better. Maybe it’s the Bird effect, but I just think with him leading the offense with the other personnel that’s in place, their team is more efficient. I’m a huge homer for Ginobili in these games. I love his versatility and all round game…imo that makes him as effective as almost (key word, almost) any wing in this game. I love the passing too…and I don’t mean just in terms of being able to make plays. Bird and Ginobili are among the best natural ball movers I’ve ever seen. Just ridiculously high IQ…I just think that slight efficiency edge and noticeable rebounding edge (with a defense that can at least cover the pick and roll well) that I’d give it to ThunderDan9. It can seriously go either way…Game 7, final seconds. This should be a much later matchup…

Vote: ThunderDan9

[MisterHibachi]

bastillon
TMACFORMVP: ThunderDan9
penbeast0: john248
ronnymac2: ThunderDan9
Doctor MJ: ThunderDan9
SideshowBob: ThunderDan9
Texas Chuck: ThunderDan9
therealbig3: john248

ThunderDan9 moves on. Finals worthy match up in my opinion.

[ardee]

CBF moved on in the other one too right?

So time for the second round?

[therealbig3]

CBF moved on in the other one too right?

So time for the second round?

Not necessarily. CBF vs whitehops is only 4-2, and SideshowBob and bastillon still have to vote.

[Quotatious]

Not necessarily. CBF vs whitehops is only 4-2, and SideshowBob and bastillon still have to vote.

Now it's 5-2 after Bastillon voted for CBF and he advances to the semifinals.

[bastillon]

I'm late to the party but I'll chime in.

vote: john

Really close matchup. what tips the scale to me is that Bird is forced to guard TMac. he would be a complete waste of time defensively. if Manu was guarding TMac, maybe that would've worked better, but peak Bird was one of the worst perimeter man defenders I've ever seen. he was effective post defender but couldn't stay in front of his guy. I think him defending TMac causes John's team to go to TMac even more and he'd just blow by him time after time. not only does that tire out Bird which could affect his offense but more importantly, it creates opportunities for absolute deadly finishers around him. with defense breaking down I see Ray/Porter putting up huge series and when those guys get hot... forget it. Porter can put up contested 3pters and make them consistetly when he gets hot. we all know who Ray is. that huge mismatch with Bird on TMac makes me think this matchup goes John's way, even though ThunderDan has a huge team. ThunderDan has the better team defense but its impact is minimized by the fact that his good help defenders are put in mismatch situations (Dwight ineffective vs Kareem, Bird ineffective vs TMac) and it doesn't help at all that the court is so spread out with these shooters all over the place.