Atlanta TV station kicks Josh where it hurts.

[parson]

This is from WSBTV out of Atlanta (link : http://www.wsbtv.com/weblogs/zach-klein ... -becomes-/ ). The title is "NBA coach: 'Good' Josh can kill you, 'Bad' Josh becomes our sixth man"

I really was hit by :

The problem, according to both coaches, is Smith's love affair with the long jumper.

"He takes long two-pointers, which is the worst shot in the game," said the Eastern coach. "We hope he scores his first two shots, because we know he'll keep shooting from out there."

They noted that "Deng, Igoudala and Pierce combined for 62 long-range two-pointers while Smith has taken 71."

They finished with

It's clear the coaches and the league will not vote him in and with fans only voting for the starters, it's doubtful Smith will ever make it.

[Ruhiel]

Great article.

Mr. Eastern Conference agrees. "He belongs on the block, if he was there he'd score 50."

Thats high praise.

Troy Murphy or Kobe Bryant? Its funny I've been saying Smith would be an all star against small forwards but I have got to get a video to show this.

Hawks have no one to blame but themselves. Iguodala makes the All Star game with 12, 7 and 5.

That's crazy. Smith could do that in his sleep at SF. And command double teams if he played a couple minutes at that spot.

I just realized today that Josh Smith is scoring 16.0 points on 14.5 shots. That can't be overlooked. Both Josh and the Hawks deserve blame for this.
At least Horford had the balls to say he was playing out of position and they'd win more with him there.

12, 7, and 5 for Iguodala. What with all the transition freebies wings get and the post up double teams and Joe Johnson chemistry I could see Smith putting up 16,9reb, 2 blks, and 4ast on way better shooting.

16ppg is 4 points per quarter. We can't find a way to get 2 buckets and some free throws with all that athleticism and skill at the small forwardl? That's embarassing and he routinely embarasses against strong real PFs. LD gots him and Vlad playing center and sh*t its crazy town here in ATL.

Other teams are scared of us if we ever get our act together and play both Joe Johnson and Josh Smith at the wings but I cant disagree with what that article says. Point is he hasnt been put on a right position to succeed.

Just the mere fact of Positions discounts him from being a coach's All Star:
vs PF he gets off a difficult shot and makes (well he's athletic)
vs Kobe (that's an all star caliber move)

That Video I have on him vs the Lakers coming soon. Bottomline move JOsh Smith to SF and he would get more lanes and be on the block crashing and posting and be a surefire COACH's all star.

50 points on the block though? I don't know thats sound endorsement though

[MaceCase]

No mention by the coaches about him being out of position huh? Just his brain being a detriment, huh? Go figure.

[Ruhiel]

No mention by the coaches about him being out of position huh? Just his brain being a detriment, huh? Go figure.

Clown.

For them ever to be a championship team -- not just a playoff team -- Horford needs to play the 4, and they find a 5 who can really play up front alongside him. You shift Josh Smith to small forward and bring Marvin Williams off the bench. But until they go in that direction, they'll be the best 6-foot-8 team in the league with too many forwards on the roster.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/b ... z1n9vJVWcj

That's been in the scouting report for years.

But Yes you would expect a coach to go out and give them the blueprint to lose.

Point for point you'd lose an argument that Smith doesn't become more respectable against the SF position.

"He takes long two-pointers, which is the worst shot in the game," said the Eastern coach. "We hope he scores his first two shots, because we know he'll keep shooting from out there."

Of the other All-Star reserves, all of which are picked by Eastern Conference coaches, Luol Deng took 30 shots from between 20-22 feet. Andre Igoudala attempted 22 and Paul Pierce took 10.

Deng, Igoudala and Pierce combined for 62 long-range two-pointers while Smith has taken 71.

I never heard anyone here arguing Smith would take more long 2s against SFs. I always heard it was 3s. What a Clown.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIepUUANijo[/youtube]

[MaceCase]

And that OTHER article has what to do with this article? It would seem that they would be two contrasting viewpoints no? But this isn't even a question of which is right it's a matter of stay on the **** topic.

And the magical made up statement of people fear he'd take more 3s at SF and not specifically long 2s.......
You are the biggest clown, people have said JUMPSHOTS which happens to include both but I'm sure everyone here has been fine and dandy with the long 2s but go into flying outrages when they see a 3 hoisted up

[Ruhiel]

You're the clown. If he's in the post he'll get double teamed so how will he shoot more jumpers as a 3? When smaller people are on him he calls for the ball.

Your statement was taunting whether it benefits to play a certain position.

So Josh Smith scoring 50 on the block? I never heard that before either and I doubt you or anyone else believes it either. Those are Shaq #s. But keep trolling & taunting.

[parson]

So Josh Smith scoring 50 on the block? I never heard that before either and I doubt you or anyone else believes it either. Those are Shaq #s. But keep trolling & taunting.

I believe it. And I've seen him demonstrate how that could come true. He's so physically superior to most SF, both in terms of strength and max vertical, that he could simply post a SF down low and go up with a jump hook. It'd be unstoppable.

In the NBA, the most precious thing is an unstoppable shot. Here's Mr. Smith, possessing a jump hook as unstoppable (especially by SFs) as any and yet he refuses to post up and use it. That's like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar not using his skyhook, for crying out loud.

[Superiorblogman]

Damaging to see what coaches and other GM's think of him, but scary that we could end up trading a surefire top 5 SF. Bron, Durant, Carmelo, then I am ready to argue with you that no-one else is better and heck after watching him play Carmelo just fine I am not so sure Carmelo is that much better. Like I said before Corliss Williams "Big Nasty" played SF for the Kings and Detroit both teams were making the playoffs when he was doing this. Lastly, I am one of the people that don't like any Josh jumper until he learns to use the glass at the angles.

[azuresou1]

I've given up on any hopes that Josh ever reaches his potential - he's simply too far along in his career to suddenly have a mental breakthrough regarding his amount of jumpshots taken. He will likely continue to play the same way for the foreseeable future.

Josh is pretty much the damn definition of a tweener, so let's not pretend that he would be significantly better at either of the positions versus the others. He has some major strengths and weaknesses at both positions, and honestly should be played at both positions depending on who the opposing team is trotting out.

[Ruhiel]

Yeah Josh Smith is a tweener he's a slower Gerald Wallace. That said if Gerald Wallace was slower and couldn't drive by anybody I would never tell him to be the power forward.

Heck yes he would be significantly better as a 3. But that is also on coaching. There are certain plays and offensive sets you can't run with Smith at the 3.
People act as if the 3 needs to be outside shooting jumpers all game. Why is that?

There's Pick and Roll. There's post up to draw a double. There's post up to score. There's diving to the rim.
Marvin avoids the perimeter for entire plays. If that's the case I rather have Ivan or a PF who can shoot and Josh Smith inside for entire plays.

This farce has gone on to long. He blocks some shots but he is not a power forward. And sure as hell aint a center.

The lone post up score he had was against Jared Jeffries. Marvin Williams 0 pts vs Carmelo. We cant do that. Thats loserville.

depending on who the opposing team is trotting out this roster should have Smith at the 3 with Joe at the 2 and a PF (Ivan by default). Simple Playoff style lineups. Ivan has been horrible defensively and offensively at center. I feel LD is contractually obligated to play Hinrich and Marvin but that ship has sailed. Go to the playoff style lineups with Marv off the bench. Hinrich shouldnt play.

http://www.hoopinionblog.com/2011/02/br ... small.html

[Rip2137]

People wanting to play Josh at the three obviously don't understand spacing of a basketball court and matchups.

Here is a scenario. You have Josh at the sf against, say Chicago. We have traded for this mysterious PF that can hit the outside jumper to space the floor...why would Chicago guard Smith with Deng and not Boozer? Why would anyteam guard him with a smaller guy when they can just switch and hide their sf on whatever jumpshooting, floor spacing big we have.

The PF that we replace Josh with would have to have range 20 feet out AND a post up game OR have josh shoot more jumpers(which no one seems to want). OR if you are saying Horford is the guy, we need a Center that can do the same. Also, this Center/PF will need to be able to be a detriment at the rim because if we move Smith out defensively on a 3, they can just pull him away.

Now formulate a list of PF/C that have both of those attributes? Now look at their salaries. See how unrealistic it is? The guys that CAN play like this (Gasol, um...Gasol, kinda Amare, Duncan, Randolph, Aldridge, Gortat, Dirk) aren't exactly coming here for what we have to offer. Al Jefferson fits the bill, but puts us in the luxuary tax area and is more PF than C which still leaves that Horford wants to be a 4 issue.

And I still don't understand people and their believing that playing well on a switch is the same thing as playing a guy full time. Marvin Williams did a great job in Iso's against Melo last night too, but the some of the same people will call him a bad defender at the 3 and Smith a good one for doing it once or twice a game.

[D21]

I don't understand how is that hard for a coach to come and put in Josh face a chart of his shots, and tell him "Yes you are shooting at .465, and can even make it to .500, but if you stop taking the long 2s, you could be at .550 or more, and that would help the team win lots of games !"

It seems it never happened since Josh is here, and moreover, it looks like when he hits one, he acts like he's making .500 on these long 2s.

Just look at that, and you will see that we would be better with Josh shooting more 3s like last year at .300, because even with .265 with season, it's almost like .400 of 2s, and at .300, it's like .450 at 2s, which is not hitting at 2 except near the rim :

2011-11


2010-11



It's not complicated, only near the rim, or take 3s but no mid or long 2s.
That's all, and Josh has to understand that would benefit both him and the team.
And one last point, no other team would allow him to do it, in case he's just waiting the end of his contract to go somewhere else.

[Rip2137]

I counter that by saying I have literally never seen Dwight Howad catch the ball that far out. That because the offense is predicated on him being on the block.

Josh isn't just casually walking out to the midrange because he wants to. Its by offensive design. And its stupid, and Josh should stop taking the jumper, but bottomline, our offense is built in a way that the defenses get to play 5 on 4 because the coaches are putting Josh in a ineffective position. Of those midrange shots, alot of them are simply because the opposition backs off him so he can't drive. They back so far down, it stopps off the ball movement around the baseline and gives back angles for entering the post becuase his man can defend the pass, leaving nothing but the midrange jumper going. When he tries to engage in the post from these catches, it takes so long to back down the shot clock is near drained by the time he is even in a decent position to think about making a move.

Its no coincidence that Josh has big games when about 2 of those fall because then the D steps up a step and he can get by them off the dribble or engage because they are closer.

If they condenced the offense a little, 1-2 feet, then the offense would be better it and it would solely be on Josh to make the right play. As it is, we have a offense designed to put him in the wrong place and he makes the wrong play far too often.

[Superiorblogman]

Josh Smith is just as much a 3 as people like Corliss Williamson, end of story. People claiming anything different for any reason including spacing are lost. Horford is a better perimeter shooter than Josh, Joe is, Teague is, even if you got a real Center that needed to be around the rim Josh would still be the 4th best perimeter shooter on your team. Meaning he should always be 1 of 2 guys looking to work the blocks. When Drew first got the job he spoke of attacking. Well you need to put guys into attack positions and Josh's is the block.

[Ruhiel]

Wow.

People wanting to play Josh at the three obviously don't understand spacing of a basketball court and matchups.

Here is a scenario. You have Josh at the sf against, say Chicago. We have traded for this mysterious PF that can hit the outside jumper to space the floor...why would Chicago guard Smith with Deng and not Boozer? Why would anyteam guard him with a smaller guy when they can just switch and hide their sf on whatever jumpshooting, floor spacing big we have.

You have your Staggered Pick and Rolls. Where you use your big as a decoy and the smaller defenders can't close out in time.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBBG9dMGhuA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_QOeZ9PI2g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jImrr2sHHwk

You have your Normal Pick and Roll. You can run it with Leuer popping. You can post up the PG switch. Or with Smith rolling or posting up the switch there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_omi04meqA4

Or you can have Joe Johnson (!) set the screen, have Teague freeze the SG with a stutter dribble and then Joe fade's on the indecisive defenders.

Or you can have Joe roll into a double screen.


Or we can have Smith pin down for Leuer's quick release shot as opposed to slow Marvin who can't come off a simple pin down screen let alone get off a clean shot against the defense.

This is funny. You think we remove Marvin from the lineup for Leuer and the problem would be offense?
[youtube]www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpC8vyqTBlM[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_omi04meqA4[/youtube]


Here's a crazy scenario: Hawks get a real coach and real management who know Josh Smith at center. Hinrich is useless to us and for us to use him at small forward is excruatingly asinine.

And if you haven't noticed we've gone to playing zone defense where they are to small to cover ground in time to defend shooters and we got beat up inside by the Bulls regardless of Smith. Zoning up the bad iso scoring Bulls and being able to rebound their misses just might work towards winning.

Defensively? Rose has his way with Smith at the PF/C if you weren't watching.
All this is moot for Leuer because I don't see how we acquire his contract.

Now for Ivan Johnson to start next to Zaza... Yeah there are plays we can run there too. It requires movement so Marvin Williams lethargic self off the court helps.


The Same Pick and Roll Set can be run with Joe or Josh and has Josh passing to Joe or Josh rolling and Teague passing to Joe/looking to score.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpC8vyqTBlM Joe screen into double
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_omi04meqA4 Marvin screen,loses balance AND too slow to roll

Or on middle pick and roll you can hide Smith in the weakside coffin corner like Marvin loves to do and have Leuer in the strongside corner. If help comes he can take the jumper before a SF can bother his shot at his height and quick release thats not gonna happen.

That'sjuxtaposed against having Marvin in the weakside corner and Smith taking those pressure release jumpers vs a big man.

Transition
Come on now. You think I'd forget all the steals and transition finishes that Smith gets from defending Luol Deng? Look at where Horford's at. If this steal came with Josh at PF he would have had to lead the break and pass to Marvin streaking. Lets not forget that. Lets admit how stupid this Josh at PF/C ploy is. He blocks shots, but he cant post and he cant stretch. And we dont want him running the break from behind we want him ahead of the pack finishing it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igvf4F_oFj4[/youtube]

[Rip2137]

First, you named a bunch of plays(most of which wouldn't work with any consistancy) but that doesn't change the question. WHY would they put a smaller guy on Smith. All of what you said could be run now with marvin on the court. And despite your love for Luer, until he proves it, Marvin Williams is a better shooter with a better ability to get his shot off than him.

I didn't say removing Marvin hurts the offense. Replacing him with a dude that completely sucks like Luer, the offense would be worse, but my point was MOVING JOSH TO THE SF without getting a stretch 4 or 5 that has a mean post game AND can hit consistantly from 20 feet is worthless.

You can't have a pick and roll offense if none of the ohter guys on the court can shoot for damn. You just collapes the D and let them shoot. So this center if he cant hit the 15-20 footer, is useless. So if you are running the 1-2 pick and roll you have Smith(who can't hit the shot reliably) Horford(who can) the Center, and the center who can't surrounding the play.

I also stated that this replacement PF-C needs to be able to defend the rim, and rebound. So basically what you all are saying is that if we got a Center that could hit the jumper consistantly from 15-20 feet, has a mean post up game, is a great rebounder and shotblocker, that we would be a better team.

YOU DON'T SAY!!!

As noted above, Josh is a Corless Williamson SF in this league. And that only really worked in Detroit where he would be on the court with Okur, James, Atkins, Sura and other jumpshooters so that he could actually post up, while at the same time, having Okur/Wallace at the 4 and a legit center in Rabraca at the 5 so you COULDN"T put a 4 on him. This was before Okur became a lazy ass and actually would take smaller guys to the post.

I would love for you to give your list of successful SF's in the NBA that didn't have great handles or a good midrange or long range jumpshot.

And SERIOUSLY....stop with the videos. They don't prove anything. Showing one off scenarios to prove your point doesn't prove anything to anyone.

[Ruhiel]

[quote="Rip2137"]
* WHY would they put a smaller guy on Smith.

* All of what you said could be run now with marvin on the court.
* Leuer is the better shooter. I don't know how you define better shooter but how in Hades is Marvin better shooter than Leuer? Slower and shorter, no post game and worse %'s to boot.

* MOVING JOSH TO THE SF
If a guy had a mean post game wouldn't that move Smith to the perimeter? Where we supposedly don't want him?

- Pretty sure Leuer can hit from 20 feet. better than Marvin.

* As noted above, Josh is a Corless Williamson SF in this league. You put bigger guys on Okur, Leuer and Rasheed Wallace because you put a small player on them and they can't leave them alone because they give any ground and its hard to recover and bother their shot.

That's even worse. And sorry but Pick and Rolls, posting up switches, and Staggered pick and rolls are consistent offense given the right personell.

With a shorter guard or Marvin a SF defender can help defend and then cover enough ground to come back and bother his shot. We've seen it time and time again. Marvin isnt burning anybody so quit it.

I don't see how you can blatantly lie about Marvin's shooting ability when he regularly struggles to get it off even at times when left wide open.

"I also stated that this replacement PF-C needs to be able to defend the rim, and rebound"

According to whom? You still have Josh Smith at the wing
A) getting steals, by clogging passing lanes
B) altering shots and decisions on drives
C) hit or miss he plays 1 on 1 defense letting us single cover other players (ala Jason on Dwight)
D) rotating on help to get his meager 2 blocks per game.
E) forcing turnovers by clogging driving lanes and changing what looks like a driving lane into overpenetration.
F) transition points

Leuer does not need to be a better shot blocker than Josh for us to be effective. He and Zaza/Al can surely handle Joakim+Boozer.

But the overrating of Marvin's offense on your part is horribly wrong.

[azuresou1]

Marvin is an average starting caliber SF. Josh is an above average starting caliber SF/PF who alternates between being All-NBA caliber and being a net negative, sometimes within the same quarter. Neither should be the focus of our offense.

[Jamaaliver]

Great article.

Mr. Eastern Conference agrees. "He belongs on the block, if he was there he'd score 50."

Thats high praise.

Troy Murphy or Kobe Bryant? Its funny I've been saying Smith would be an all star against small forwards but I have got to get a video to show this.

Other teams are scared of us if we ever get our act together and play both Joe Johnson and Josh Smith at the wings but I cant disagree with what that article says.

Bottomline move JOsh Smith to SF and he would get more lanes and be on the block crashing and posting and be a surefire COACH's all star.

I think it's fair to say Josh has been a total train wreck at SF. Glad LD or Woody never succumbed to the calls to play Josh at the three.

[parson]

But it would be easier for him to stay on the block at SF because PFs are so much stronger and harder to post up. SF would be the best place for him, if he'd open his eyes. At DET (and I thought here, too, in limited minutes), he's shown he can defend the 3. He could be a great SF: good on defense and dominant on offense. He could back SFs down and just shoot over them with ease. Oh, well.