Official Trade Thread - Part XXVI

[deneem4]

I think Cousins is definitely better than Wall, and this is another time I do know what I am talking about.

Funny how you randomly bring that up.

Lets see, Sacramento has all this great talent. DeMarcus is clearly better than Wall. Hell, Isaiah Thomas is clearly better than Wall. Right? At least in your eyes? McLemore has a ton of talent. Jason Thompson is a rock solid big according to you...

So why in the hell is Sacramento 18-35? The same team you've predicted as a playoff team the last two years.

Why does DeMarcus constantly put up 20 & 10, and the Kings lose? Why does Isaiah Thomas duplicate what the best PGs do on a nightly basis, but yet the Kings lose?

I'll give you a hint... stats can clearly only measure Cousins or Thomas' impact on one side of the court. Cousins for all of his rebounding prowess, scoring ability and incredibly high usage rate... barely makes a blip on the radar in terms of positive impact for his team per 82games. Same with Thomas, depsite the gaudy shooting stats and assist numbers.

Thomas, Thornton, Gay, Thompson, and Cousins is the lineup Sacramento under-utilizes.

Regardless of what you say, Cousins PER is 26.5 and if one were to replace Nene or Gortat with Cousins, Boogie would be your new favorite Wizard.

Thomas clowns Wall pretty consistently.

McLemore has stunk. I have no problem admitting that.

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The kings need d'antoni as they're coach 1st of all
2nd they're missing they're vet pf
3rd they're no clear roles...Every good team has roles that players take on..
same problem with us...With t h e exception of ariza we don't have any roles because everyone else is inconsistent.

[AFM]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no-fAgD_GDY#t=98[/youtube]

Get in the game Grunfeld.

Just based off his handles and quickness, I can tell this kid is a baller.
The idea that someone is too short to play point is how Isaiah Thomas gets drafted 60th (while Vesely is drafted 6th -- sorry had to throw that in there)

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Singleton for Will Barton.

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[TGW]

I think Cousins is definitely better than Wall, and this is another time I do know what I am talking about.

Funny how you randomly bring that up.

Lets see, Sacramento has all this great talent. DeMarcus is clearly better than Wall. Hell, Isaiah Thomas is clearly better than Wall. Right? At least in your eyes? McLemore has a ton of talent. Jason Thompson is a rock solid big according to you...

So why in the hell is Sacramento 18-35? The same team you've predicted as a playoff team the last two years.

Why does DeMarcus constantly put up 20 & 10, and the Kings lose? Why does Isaiah Thomas duplicate what the best PGs do on a nightly basis, but yet the Kings lose?

I'll give you a hint... stats can clearly only measure Cousins or Thomas' impact on one side of the court. Cousins for all of his rebounding prowess, scoring ability and incredibly high usage rate... barely makes a blip on the radar in terms of positive impact for his team per 82games. Same with Thomas, depsite the gaudy shooting stats and assist numbers.

Thomas, Thornton, Gay, Thompson, and Cousins is the lineup Sacramento under-utilizes.

Regardless of what you say, Cousins PER is 26.5 and if one were to replace Nene or Gortat with Cousins, Boogie would be your new favorite Wizard.

Thomas clowns Wall pretty consistently.

McLemore has stunk. I have no problem admitting that.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Dat is right...Cousins and Thomas are statpadders and won't win anything in this league unless they make significant changes to their style of play. Who cares what their stats are...it means nothing because the Kings stink. They are truly one of the biggest flops in the NBA, and those 2 are a big reason why.

And FYI last game:

Gortat: 17 points, 8 rebounds, 6-10 shooting
Cousins: 14 points, 12 rebounds, 3-16 shooting

[fishercob]

I am confused by the Pierre Jackson fervor. He has the opportunity to play in New Orleans and hasn't signed his contract.

What makes people believe he'd want to come here; there's a hole at backup PG but SG is pretty set. And if he did want to come here we can't barely pay him and stay out of the tax.

The fact that he hasn't signed probably means he wants big minutes or money an we can offer neither. Why give up an asset for that?

Sign Sessions, Augustin, Mills, Andre Miller, Jameer Nelson, etc this summer and use the asset elsewhere.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Funny how you randomly bring that up.

Lets see, Sacramento has all this great talent. DeMarcus is clearly better than Wall. Hell, Isaiah Thomas is clearly better than Wall. Right? At least in your eyes? McLemore has a ton of talent. Jason Thompson is a rock solid big according to you...

So why in the hell is Sacramento 18-35? The same team you've predicted as a playoff team the last two years.

Why does DeMarcus constantly put up 20 & 10, and the Kings lose? Why does Isaiah Thomas duplicate what the best PGs do on a nightly basis, but yet the Kings lose?

I'll give you a hint... stats can clearly only measure Cousins or Thomas' impact on one side of the court. Cousins for all of his rebounding prowess, scoring ability and incredibly high usage rate... barely makes a blip on the radar in terms of positive impact for his team per 82games. Same with Thomas, depsite the gaudy shooting stats and assist numbers.

Thomas, Thornton, Gay, Thompson, and Cousins is the lineup Sacramento under-utilizes.

Regardless of what you say, Cousins PER is 26.5 and if one were to replace Nene or Gortat with Cousins, Boogie would be your new favorite Wizard.

Thomas clowns Wall pretty consistently.

McLemore has stunk. I have no problem admitting that.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Dat is right...Cousins and Thomas are statpadders and won't win anything in this league unless they make significant changes to their style of play. Who cares what their stats are...it means nothing because the Kings stink. They are truly one of the biggest flops in the NBA, and those 2 are a big reason why.

And FYI last game:

Gortat: 17 points, 8 rebounds, 6-10 shooting
Cousins: 14 points, 12 rebounds, 3-16 shooting

Cousins is 23. Gortat is 30. Wall and Cousins both played like crap. Stat padding is looking at one game.

Where I agree is that Cousins is similar to Zach Randolph, Carlos Boozer, Kevin Love, and Al Jefferson. None of those guys win without a defensive anchor next to them. Boozer has both Noah and Gibson.

All Cousins needs is what Zach Randolph got when he became teamed up with Marc Gasol.

I think you and Dat are clueless on this. Cousins and Love both haven't won squat. Then again, neither had LaMarcus Aldridge before last season. Neither did Garnett before Sprewell and Cassell, and ultimately Allen and Pierce with Rivers coaching.

Cousins has put up sick numbers. I think he's a great player despite his lack of athleticism, just like Kevin Love. Pair Cousins with Seraphin and either Nene or Gasol and the Wizards are a 50-plus win team.

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[deneem4]

Webster
singleton

To okc for

jones
thabeet
Dallas 1st
(Martin tpe)

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I am confused by the Pierre Jackson fervor. He has the opportunity to play in New Orleans and hasn't signed his contract.

What makes people believe he'd want to come here; there's a hole at backup PG but SG is pretty set. And if he did want to come here we can't barely pay him and stay out of the tax.

The fact that he hasn't signed probably means he wants big minutes or money an we can offer neither. Why give up an asset for that?

Sign Sessions, Augustin, Mills, Andre Miller, Jameer Nelson, etc this summer and use the asset elsewhere.

D-League player who would earn a minimum contract.

I view Pierre as a small SG, who like Jimmer Fredette is primarily a scorer. Jackson is scoring 40 regularly and once put up 58. He's young and extremely hard to guard. He's a natural leader and very much like Nate Robinson emotionally. You don't need assists as much as you need cocky, fiery, emotional good play. If the guy makes 3 spectacular plays and 2 mistakes, he's way better than Maynor.

I agree on not trading an asset for Jackson only. I would trade rights to Singleton, Vesely, and of course Maynor and take back filler salary from New Orleans.

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[Dat2U]

Thomas, Thornton, Gay, Thompson, and Cousins is the lineup Sacramento under-utilizes.

Regardless of what you say, Cousins PER is 26.5 and if one were to replace Nene or Gortat with Cousins, Boogie would be your new favorite Wizard.

Thomas clowns Wall pretty consistently.

McLemore has stunk. I have no problem admitting that.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Dat is right...Cousins and Thomas are statpadders and won't win anything in this league unless they make significant changes to their style of play. Who cares what their stats are...it means nothing because the Kings stink. They are truly one of the biggest flops in the NBA, and those 2 are a big reason why.

And FYI last game:

Gortat: 17 points, 8 rebounds, 6-10 shooting
Cousins: 14 points, 12 rebounds, 3-16 shooting

Cousins is 23. Gortat is 30. Wall and Cousins both played like crap. Stat padding is looking at one game.

Where I agree is that Cousins is similar to Zach Randolph, Carlos Boozer, Kevin Love, and Al Jefferson. None of those guys win without a defensive anchor next to them. Boozer has both Noah and Gibson.

All Cousins needs is what Zach Randolph got when he became teamed up with Marc Gasol.

I think you and Dat are clueless on this. Cousins and Love both haven't won squat. Then again, neither had LaMarcus Aldridge before last season. Neither did Garnett before Sprewell and Cassell, and ultimately Allen and Pierce with Rivers coaching.

Cousins has put up sick numbers. I think he's a great player despite his lack of athleticism, just like Kevin Love. Pair Cousins with Seraphin and either Nene or Gasol and the Wizards are a 50-plus win team.

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So are you really suggesting Cousins is a 6-11 270 PF who needs a defensive center next to him?

I think there's only going to be one position Cousins is plays his entire NBA career. And for him to really be winner, he'll really need to start giving a f*ck on the other side of the court instead of hoping he gets paired with someone that plays the same position

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Funny how you randomly bring that up.

Lets see, Sacramento has all this great talent. DeMarcus is clearly better than Wall. Hell, Isaiah Thomas is clearly better than Wall. Right? At least in your eyes? McLemore has a ton of talent. Jason Thompson is a rock solid big according to you...

So why in the hell is Sacramento 18-35? The same team you've predicted as a playoff team the last two years.

Why does DeMarcus constantly put up 20 & 10, and the Kings lose? Why does Isaiah Thomas duplicate what the best PGs do on a nightly basis, but yet the Kings lose?

I'll give you a hint... stats can clearly only measure Cousins or Thomas' impact on one side of the court. Cousins for all of his rebounding prowess, scoring ability and incredibly high usage rate... barely makes a blip on the radar in terms of positive impact for his team per 82games. Same with Thomas, depsite the gaudy shooting stats and assist numbers.

Thomas, Thornton, Gay, Thompson, and Cousins is the lineup Sacramento under-utilizes.

Regardless of what you say, Cousins PER is 26.5 and if one were to replace Nene or Gortat with Cousins, Boogie would be your new favorite Wizard.

Thomas clowns Wall pretty consistently.

McLemore has stunk. I have no problem admitting that.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using RealGM Forums mobile app

The kings need d'antoni as they're coach 1st of all
2nd they're missing they're vet pf
3rd they're no clear roles...Every good team has roles that players take on..
same problem with us...With t h e exception of ariza we don't have any roles because everyone else is inconsistent.

Point 2 is very true. Nene on the Kings makes that team better.

You are also so right about the Kings lacking roles. That team stifles talent. Landry and Thornton played significant playoff minutes years ago.

Vesely would be a good shot blocker, hustler for the Kings. They have too many plodders next to floor bound Cousins.

The Wizards could use offense off the bench from players like peak Marcus Thornton, Carl Landry, and (16 PER, with improved shooting) Jimmer Fredette.

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[dckingsfan]

Funny how you randomly bring that up.

Lets see, Sacramento has all this great talent. DeMarcus is clearly better than Wall. Hell, Isaiah Thomas is clearly better than Wall. Right? At least in your eyes? McLemore has a ton of talent. Jason Thompson is a rock solid big according to you...

So why in the hell is Sacramento 18-35? The same team you've predicted as a playoff team the last two years.

Why does DeMarcus constantly put up 20 & 10, and the Kings lose? Why does Isaiah Thomas duplicate what the best PGs do on a nightly basis, but yet the Kings lose?

I'll give you a hint... stats can clearly only measure Cousins or Thomas' impact on one side of the court. Cousins for all of his rebounding prowess, scoring ability and incredibly high usage rate... barely makes a blip on the radar in terms of positive impact for his team per 82games. Same with Thomas, depsite the gaudy shooting stats and assist numbers.

Thomas, Thornton, Gay, Thompson, and Cousins is the lineup Sacramento under-utilizes.

Regardless of what you say, Cousins PER is 26.5 and if one were to replace Nene or Gortat with Cousins, Boogie would be your new favorite Wizard.

Thomas clowns Wall pretty consistently.

McLemore has stunk. I have no problem admitting that.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using RealGM Forums mobile app

The kings need d'antoni as they're coach 1st of all
2nd they're missing they're vet pf
3rd they're no clear roles...Every good team has roles that players take on..
same problem with us...With t h e exception of ariza we don't have any roles because everyone else is inconsistent.

I have a slightly different perspective... I believe they are missing a couple of defenders. One wing defender and one FC defender. Cousins should be playing PF and not C. That is there first problem - and primary problem.

There second problem is that they play in the West - guess I don't need to say anything more on that subject. The Wolves would be the 3rd seed in the east.

The third thing is that they are playing much better - not perfect but definitely better since Rudy trade - but it is going to take time to implement Malone's system - which has been pretty good. I would say they are a shot blocker and another wing defender away from the playoffs.

As to why the Wiz are better than the Kings - I would say it isn't a Wall vs Cuz issue...

PG - Wiz
SG - Wiz
SF - Even
PF - Wiz
C - Sac
Bench - Sac (barely) - go figure

Note that they are constrained with a couple of not so good contracts in Thorton, Landry and Thompson. I think they will have a tough time unloading any of those 3 contracts for something of value. Their owner does seem willing to go over the luxury tax threshold though... so we will see.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Dat is right...Cousins and Thomas are statpadders and won't win anything in this league unless they make significant changes to their style of play. Who cares what their stats are...it means nothing because the Kings stink. They are truly one of the biggest flops in the NBA, and those 2 are a big reason why.

And FYI last game:

Gortat: 17 points, 8 rebounds, 6-10 shooting
Cousins: 14 points, 12 rebounds, 3-16 shooting

Cousins is 23. Gortat is 30. Wall and Cousins both played like crap. Stat padding is looking at one game.

Where I agree is that Cousins is similar to Zach Randolph, Carlos Boozer, Kevin Love, and Al Jefferson. None of those guys win without a defensive anchor next to them. Boozer has both Noah and Gibson.

All Cousins needs is what Zach Randolph got when he became teamed up with Marc Gasol.

I think you and Dat are clueless on this. Cousins and Love both haven't won squat. Then again, neither had LaMarcus Aldridge before last season. Neither did Garnett before Sprewell and Cassell, and ultimately Allen and Pierce with Rivers coaching.

Cousins has put up sick numbers. I think he's a great player despite his lack of athleticism, just like Kevin Love. Pair Cousins with Seraphin and either Nene or Gasol and the Wizards are a 50-plus win team.

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So are you really suggesting Cousins is a 6-11 270 PF who needs a defensive center next to him?

I think there's only going to be one position Cousins is plays his entire NBA career. And for him to really be winner, he'll really need to start giving a f*ck on the other side of the court instead of hoping he gets paired with someone that plays the same position

C is his best position, but Cousins is highly skilled. Just like Nene and Okafor worked well, so could Cousins with Gortat or Nene. The key is Cousins would be in the paint on offense.

The guy I would love to partner with Cousins is Seraphin. Kevin is athletic enough to not foul out defending PF. Noone with size and quickness has ever been a teammate of DeMarcus.

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[TGW]

Cousins is 23. Gortat is 30. Wall and Cousins both played like crap. Stat padding is looking at one game.

Where I agree is that Cousins is similar to Zach Randolph, Carlos Boozer, Kevin Love, and Al Jefferson. None of those guys win without a defensive anchor next to them. Boozer has both Noah and Gibson.

All Cousins needs is what Zach Randolph got when he became teamed up with Marc Gasol.

I think you and Dat are clueless on this. Cousins and Love both haven't won squat. Then again, neither had LaMarcus Aldridge before last season. Neither did Garnett before Sprewell and Cassell, and ultimately Allen and Pierce with Rivers coaching.

Cousins has put up sick numbers. I think he's a great player despite his lack of athleticism, just like Kevin Love. Pair Cousins with Seraphin and either Nene or Gasol and the Wizards are a 50-plus win team.

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When Cousins starts winning meaningful games, then he'll be a great player. Calling him a great player at this moment is truly clueless. His play doesn't translate into wins. And when your center is a non-factor defensively, it sets a bad tone for the rest of the team. The Kings have tried so many different combinations and pairings to fit around Cousins, and none have worked.

[dckingsfan]

Not sure why folks think that Cuz doesn't try on D THIS YEAR, he does. He plays hard on the defensive end and has been holding his own against other FC players. He IS the best defensive player on the Kings. And he is much improved over his first couple of years. He has also become a terrific defensive rebounder.

A shot blocker next to Cuz would be extremely helpful... and Cuz is skilled enough to play inside or outside. I would rather see a Sanders or Ibaka (improbable) than Seraphin next to Cuz. Either that or a true stretch 4 - the Kings are not a very good 3 point shooting team.

BTW, the Kings have let McLemore play (4th most minutes on the Kings this year) and that has cost them numerous games (think of Temple playing 23 mpg). And Thorton is only marginally (very marginally) better. Basically they STINK at SG. Add to that - Thompson has had times where he played pathetically... a nice recipe for losing.

But Cuz and the Kings are improving but they are also very constrained. They are up against the cap and need two players to make a jump. They either need McLemore to take a big jump or need a defensive wing - Webster would fit well between Thomas and Gay - but that better not happen. And they need a shot blocker... at PF or at C, it doesn't matter.

[dckingsfan]

Also, if you want to compare Wall to Cuz, I think you would look at how Wall compares to other guards and how Cuz compares to other FC players.

I guess the subjective measure would be is top 5 great, top 10, etc.?

[TGW]

Cousins rates about as effective defensively as Gortat, and we all know Gortat is pretty weak on that side of the court. To be a great defensive team, your center has to set the tone defensively, and Cousins doesn't. Sure, it's easy to say "put a shotblocker next to him"...well there's only a handful of good shotblockers in the NBA, and there's only 2-3 who are actually good defenders. So right there, the Kings are already handicapped on who they can play with Cousins...needless to say they've tried about 6 power forwards of varying talent and ability next to him, and none have been successful.

I'm not saying Cousins is a bad player. I'm saying he's not going to win anything because his style of play is not conducive to winning basketball. Poor help side defender, average at best on the ball, and he likes to shoot a ton of bad shots he shouldn't. Like Wall, he needs a ton of work on his game to be a consistent player.

There's a reason he got snubbed from the AS game.

[stinger14]

Charlotte gets Ariza

Wizards get Sessions and Portland first round pick (charlotte owns this pick)

Wizards still have Webster and Otto at SF. Sesions adds much needed depth at PG, and get another first round pick

[dckingsfan]

Cousins rates about as effective defensively as Gortat, and we all know Gortat is pretty weak on that side of the court.

Having watched all but 2 Kings gams and 1 Wiz game, I would say that Cousins is already a better defender than Gortat. His defensive rebounding is excellent and he is very good at picking up charges. I think his weakside D is very underrated as well - mostly because of his quick hands.

To be a great defensive team, your center has to set the tone defensively, and Cousins doesn't.

OK, you are right, he isn't a great defensive C like Drummond or Hibbert.

Sure, it's easy to say "put a shotblocker next to him"...well there's only a handful of good shotblockers in the NBA, and there's only 2-3 who are actually good defenders.

Any of ... Anthony Davis, John Henson, Serge Ibaka, Roy Hibbert, DeAndre Jordan, Andre Drummond, Timofey Mozgov, Miles Plumlee, Dwight Howard, Derrick Favors, Robin Lopez, Joakim Noah, Bismack Biyombo, Kosta Koufos, Larry Sanders...

So right there, the Kings are already handicapped on who they can play with Cousins...needless to say they've tried about 6 power forwards of varying talent and ability next to him, and none have been successful.

Come on - they have all been pretty turrible... really.

I'm not saying Cousins is a bad player. I'm saying he's not going to win anything because his style of play is not conducive to winning basketball. Poor help side defender, average at best on the ball, and he likes to shoot a ton of bad shots he shouldn't. Like Wall, he needs a ton of work on his game to be a consistent player..

Yep, still a young developing player... not great, but he has potential and he is improving every year.

There's a reason he got snubbed from the AS game.

OK...

[payitforward]

Yeah I'm not a diehard EG hater

I'm sorry you lost me right there lol

That's fine, I'm okay with being a rational observer. I've never stated that EG has deserved the length of his current tenure. What I have said is that some on this board are impossible to make happy or are unable to give credit where it is due. The difference between myself and others, as opposed to a large faction on this board, is we can look at individual moves with objectivity while it's impossible for the latter group to say anything other than negative, 'whatever is completely opposite of EG' comments, suggestions, and rants. Fact is, I would rather another GM as opposed to EG, but I won't be blinded by some form of irrational hatred and say that every one of his moves equates to failure just because I don't like him.

More BS from the so-called "rational observer" cohort -- I don't know any of those to whom Ernie's long record of futility, bad moves and a low winning percentage who "are unable to give credit where it is due." Not a one.

Signing Webster was a good move. Drafting Wall, while the default move that every other NBA GM would have made, was still a good move. Drafting Beal was a good move. I'd even say drafting Porter was a good move -- tho that doesn't mean we know he'll work out. Working out is not the only criterion.

For that matter I'd say trading up to get Booker was a good move.

Yet despite all those good moves, we are two games under .500, and the season is almost 2/3 over. Given those good moves above, how come?

Because drafting Vesely was a bad move. Drafting Singleton was a bad move. Drafting Mack then cutting Mack was a bad move. Wasting 2 R2 picks in 2012 was two bad moves. Trading cap room and flexibility for an injury-prone Okafor was a bad move. Trading for 5 years of guaranteed huge salary for a big in the last 1/3 of his career (and w/ a history of not playing big minutes) was a bad move (i.e. Nene). Signing Maynor was a bad move. Signing Harrington was a bad move. Having no plan B at C behind Okafor was a bad move. Trading Okafor and a mid-round 1 pick for a one-year rental on Gortat was a bad move.

More generally, going all in for mediocrity -- and then not even quite achieving it yet! -- was a bad move. Allowing a rebuilding team to become a relatively old team without achieving any success was a bad move. And putting us in a corner in re: cap room and salary flexibility before we've even quite made it to .500 was a bad move.

"How could anyone think those things are bad," says the so-called rational observer. "Foolish nabobs of negativism! We're going to make the playoffs! That's a great thing. Why only slightly more than half the teams in the league make the playoffs."

It's beyond me to imagine there's anything "rational" about support for a guy who is demonstrably among the very worst GMs of the last quarter century but who has kept his job for more than a decade!

[payitforward]

...What I believe is that some of the moves EG has made have been unfairly judged by some on this board as bad. I'm labeled an EG apologist by some on this board. Im okay with that, I'd rather be open than closed.

Who wouldn't rather be "open" than "closed"? And who wouldn't describe himself as "open"?

Your opinion of yourself is good -- now there's a surprise!

What are "the moves EG has made" that "have been unfairly judged... as bad"? Which ones? What's the point of spending your keyboard clicks praising yourself when you could actually put something on the line?

What was good? And what made it good? Did the results of these good moves (we're 25-27) make them good? Enlighten us, o open one.