PG: Joe Johnson, The Mental Midget

[Paradise]

Nets: 86
Warriors: 93

[therealbig3]

GS actually hasn't been that great of a home team this year, they've got some really disappointing losses actually.

But obviously they have a ton of talent. I'd feel better about our chances if Bogut was out...

[CalamityX12]

[BK nets BK]

Not feeling good about this one

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Palmeirense]

Hnnnnnnnnng on the good luck charm.

[kerry kittles]

DWill needs to step up. Livingston was a huge reason we won last time. He was getting great penetration and was drawing fouls on Curry. His size was a big advantage for us. Deron needs to attack the rim and cannot be settling for jumpers.

Pierce was also big for us last meeting and really took it to Thompson whenever he was matched against him. We should look to exploit that if Thompson is ever on him. It really would've been great if we could've picked up Hill for games like this. It's tough for Pierce to matchup with a guy like Lee defensively without picking up fouls.

We have bigger guards that can really take advantage of having smaller guards on them. Johnson attacked every time Trey Burke or Garrett was switched on him last game and was successful. Smaller guards cannot really guard him one on one without help if hes being aggressive. Livingston is great at posting up smaller guards. Going small neutralizes those advantages. I can see the advantages of going smaller against teams, but in a game like this I can see us taking advantage of certain matchups.

[HelloBrooklyn]

DWill needs to step up. Livingston was a huge reason we won last time. He was getting great penetration and was drawing fouls on Curry. His size was a big advantage for us. Deron needs to attack the rim and cannot be settling for jumpers.

Pierce was also big for us last meeting and really took it to Thompson whenever he was matched against him. We should look to exploit that if Thompson is ever on him. It really would've been great if we could've picked up Hill for games like this. It's tough for Pierce to matchup with a guy like Lee defensively without picking up fouls.

We have bigger guards that can really take advantage of having smaller guards on them. Johnson attacked every time Trey Burke or Garrett was switched on him last game and was successful. Smaller guards cannot really guard him one on one without help if hes being aggressive. Livingston is great at posting up smaller guards. Going small neutralizes those advantages. I can see the advantages of going smaller against teams, but in a game like this I can see us taking advantage of certain matchups.

I actually thought DWill showed some life last game. He definitely suck but he brought an aggressiveness that he hadn't brought all season long. He just needed to hit more of the shots he took.

[Prokorov]

GS actually hasn't been that great of a home team this year, they've got some really disappointing losses actually.

But obviously they have a ton of talent. I'd feel better about our chances if Bogut was out...

we havent exactly been great on the road either...

we will need Johnson to play well again and blatche to not suck.

[kerry kittles]

DWill needs to step up. Livingston was a huge reason we won last time. He was getting great penetration and was drawing fouls on Curry. His size was a big advantage for us. Deron needs to attack the rim and cannot be settling for jumpers.

Pierce was also big for us last meeting and really took it to Thompson whenever he was matched against him. We should look to exploit that if Thompson is ever on him. It really would've been great if we could've picked up Hill for games like this. It's tough for Pierce to matchup with a guy like Lee defensively without picking up fouls.

We have bigger guards that can really take advantage of having smaller guards on them. Johnson attacked every time Trey Burke or Garrett was switched on him last game and was successful. Smaller guards cannot really guard him one on one without help if hes being aggressive. Livingston is great at posting up smaller guards. Going small neutralizes those advantages. I can see the advantages of going smaller against teams, but in a game like this I can see us taking advantage of certain matchups.

I actually thought DWill showed some life last game. He definitely suck but he brought an aggressiveness that he hadn't brought all season long. He just needed to hit more of the shots he took.

Yes, I don't disagree. He wasn't settling for jumpers as much as he had been and clearly was looking to take the ball to the basket and make things happen. I want to see more of that.
He and the rest of the team needs to do a better job not losing their man on the outside and fighting through screens. There was an awesome play in the 4th where AK fought through the screen and came up with a huge block. I would like to see that fight from the rest of the guys out there.

[Prokorov]

were not going to magically start defending screens better, especially with williams on the court. its who he is. that isnt changing now. we really need to start bringing off the bench where we can hide him better on defense

[MGrand15]

I'd like to see one game thread where you don't talk about bringing Deron off the bench. It's not happening and it wouldn't help.

Here are facts, Prok:

Starting lineup WITH Deron: 98 minutes played total, +42 when they play together. To put that in perspective, over the course of a full game, that's winning by more than 20. Our offense AND defense have been outrageously good. Our DRtg is actually better with Deron on the floor over Alan Anderson, who would take his spot in the starting lineup if you got it your way. Giving him less minutes with that specific lineup when it's our best lineup would be atrocious coaching and wouldn't make sense. Harden and Manu were on the bench because they were at best the 3rd best playmakers on the team - Deron is our best.

Deron's shot has been off and there are times where he looks terrible/unhealthy but the facts are that (for some reason) all of our lineups play better with Deron and our offense runs at elite levels when he's on the floor. This rhetoric that he's been no more than a back up PG or that he needs to be hidden on defense is pure garbage. No stats support it.

[Born_Ready]

[Prokorov]

I'd like to see one game thread where you don't talk about bringing Deron off the bench. It's not happening and it wouldn't help.

it would help. it would help defensively and it would help the second unit

Here are facts, Prok:

Starting lineup WITH Deron: 98 minutes played total, +42 when they play together. To put that in perspective, over the course of a full game, that's winning by more than 20. Our offense AND defense have been outrageously good. Our DRtg is actually better with Deron on the floor over Alan Anderson, who would take his spot in the starting lineup if you got it your way. Giving him less minutes with that specific lineup when it's our best lineup would be atrocious coaching and wouldn't make sense. Harden and Manu were on the bench because they were at best the 3rd best playmakers on the team - Deron is our best.

you are looking at it without looking at the big picture. we might be +42 in the starting lineup when dwill starts, but what is our benchs +/- with Dwill starting vs. when he comes off the bench? what is our TEAMS +/- with him starting vs when he comes off the bench.

our bench was scoring 54 points per game when dwill was coming off the bench. thats insane. our starting lineup was great when dwill was hurt without him and fine when he was coming off the bench. YES the starting line is BETTER with dwill, but the overall we are not better when he starts.

if we the starters are +42 with dwill starting and the bench -42 then it kind of cancels out

if the starters are +3 with dwill NOT starting and the bench +30 then thats more beneficial

its not just about having the best starting unit. its about having the best rotation through 48 minutes

Deron's shot has been off and there are times where he looks terrible/unhealthy but the facts are that (for some reason) all of our lineups play better with Deron and our offense runs at elite levels when he's on the floor. This rhetoric that he's been no more than a back up PG or that he needs to be hidden on defense is pure garbage. No stats support it.

our offense does not run at elite levels when he is on the floor. that is riddiculous. he certainly needs to be hidden on defense, as he cant gaurd PG's in this league any more.

and your right, he isnt an average point gaurd this year, he is worse then that. in the last 10 games he has outplayed the opposing PG 1 time -- the game where the spurs played their 3rd stringers. he has been awful. there is no way around it.

Dwill: 19 pts. 7 assists on 6-15 shooting
Burke: 16 pts. 10 assists on 6-12 shooting

Dwill: 13 points 5 assists 6 turnovers on 4-14 shooting
Hinrich: 9 points 7 assists 1 turnover on 4-8 shooting

Dwill: 13 points 7 assists on 4-11 shooting
Kemba: 16 points 4 assists on 6-17 shooting

Dwill: 9 points 6 assists 3 turnovers on 3-6 shooting
Roberts: 12 points 4 assists on 4-9 shooting

Dwill: 10 points 0 assists on 4-10 shooting
Jennings: 26 points 10 rebounds 9 assists on 8-13 shooting

Dwill: 16 points 8 assists on 7-14 shooting
Mills: 16 points 2 assists on 6-13 Shooting

Dwill: 21 points 6 assists on 8 of 19 shooting
MCW: 21 points 4 assists on 6-17 shooting

Dwill: 13 points 6 assists on 3-12 shooting
Hill: 10 points 4 assists on 4-8 shooting

dwill: 14 points 1 assist 5 turnovers on 5-8 shooting
Jackson: 14 points 7 assits on 6-15 shooting

dwill: 9 points 11 assists on 4-11 shooting
Lowry: 31 points 7 assists on 10-18 shooting

[therealbig3]

our offense does not run at elite levels when he is on the floor. that is riddiculous. he certainly needs to be hidden on defense, as he cant gaurd PG's in this league any more.

So you accept the fact that he makes the starting lineup better, but he's better served coming off the bench, because it makes the team stronger overall. Clearly, we've disagreed over this, but nobody can really disprove that claim.

But then you say stuff like this, and it just flies in the face of the facts. Obviously, the numbers show we're better defensively with Deron on the court, but you constantly point out that we're horrible defensively whenever he's in the game and that we can't afford to have him out there because of the defensive issues...and yet our best defensive lineups involve Deron. That's not to say he's a good defender all of a sudden...it's just that he's not this massive liability that you keep claiming he is. Clearly, we're capable of playing good defense with Deron on the court. This isn't Amare we're talking about. He's a below average defender, with moments of being terrible, but also moments of being quite good. In the grand scheme of things, he's not a make or break defensive player.

And offensively, we're not elite with him on the court? Again, with Deron on the court, surrounded by whatever players you choose, the offense is very good. Williams-Livingston-Johnson-Pierce-Garnett...112 ORating, 85 DRating. Outscored teams by 47 points in 92 minutes. Put him with the bench lineup, like you said, Williams-Terry-Kirilenko-Teletovic-Blatche...140 ORating, 112 DRating. Outscored teams by 28 points in 55 minutes. The offense is outstanding whether Deron plays with the starters or the 2nd unit. He hasn't played close to as well as he should be, which is why I'm really disappointed with him, but you constantly harp on him being such a liability defensively, and that's just not the case. And now you also said that he doesn't make our offense elite, and yet, the offense is elite no matter who's around him. Our best overall defensive lineup is one with Williams (the aforementioned starting lineup with the 85 DRating). And for more on his offensive impact, his offensive on/off is +7.1. The defense plays better with him in the game too.

I mean, none of these numbers are perfect, there's obviously a lot of variables, but there's at least something there to support Deron being a positive impact player regardless of the situation. There's something that supports Deron being a major contributor on offense and a non-liability on defense.

What exactly is there to support your point? There's no numbers or evidence...in fact, all the evidence directly disagrees with you and says the complete opposite...so what exactly is the basis for you to say that Deron kills us defensively? Or that he doesn't make the offense elite? You seem to remember only very specific instances where we might struggle with Deron on the court, and then ignore the times we do well with Deron on the court, and then not realize that the specific instances you remember are a very small part of a larger sample size in which we actually play really well on both sides of the court with Deron, regardless of who he plays with.

[MGrand15]

You say he's been below-average and TERRIBLE on defense - yet our best lineups feature him and our defense is great with him in the lineup. Having the best rotation means you NEED to play your best lineup as many minutes as possible. If Deron is coming off the bench, how often do you think he'd play next to Livingston-JJ-Pierce-KG? Maybe at the end of each half. That's a waste of our best lineup. Our bench will be fine regardless - we have Mirza/Blatche/AK47/Thornton/AA. That's a damn good bench. They've been good with or without Deron.

That 10 game stat is fantastic - I'm glad NBA isn't played 1 on 1. Like I said, his shooting has been off and he's looked bad at times yet he's still our best playmaker and the key to our engine. That much is obvious by looking at our lineup stats. We play much better on offense and defense when he's on the floor. When you replace him, things get worse. If he was terrible, this wouldn't be the case.

I just don't understand your argument. You say to bring him off the bench because he'll make the bench better but then you talk about how terrible he is in your next sentence. Going by your "logic", wouldn't it make sense to bring Livingston off the bench? We can start our terrible PG then bring our better PG off the bench. SMH.

[Prokorov]

But then you say stuff like this, and it just flies in the face of the facts. Obviously, the numbers show we're better defensively with Deron on the court, but you constantly point out that we're horrible defensively whenever he's in the game and that we can't afford to have him out there because of the defensive issues...and yet our best defensive lineups involve Deron. That's not to say he's a good defender all of a sudden...it's just that he's not this massive liability that you keep claiming he is.

I beleive you cant really go with the on/off defensive numbers with this team. there are too many things imo that skew them...

1) so many injuries leading to so few minutes of the lineups being togehter = small samples that are tough to go on

2) kidd not really running out what would be our best defensive lineup often enough

3) so many blowouts inflating/deflating the stats

4) the other 4 guys making up for william short comings minimizing how it looks in the metrics

5) PG defense not having as big an impact

6) so many games vs. bad teams that it dilutes the bad games because we can get by vs bad teams

Williams is an awful defender. good teams exploit him.

And offensively, we're not elite with him on the court? Again, with Deron on the court, surrounded by whatever players you choose, the offense is very good. Williams-Livingston-Johnson-Pierce-Garnett...112 ORating, 85 DRating. Outscored teams by 47 points in 92 minutes. Put him with the bench lineup, like you said, Williams-Terry-Kirilenko-Teletovic-Blatche...140 ORating, 112 DRating. Outscored teams by 28 points in 55 minutes. The offense is outstanding whether Deron plays with the starters or the 2nd unit. He hasn't played close to as well as he should be, which is why I'm really disappointed with him, but you constantly harp on him being such a liability defensively, and that's just not the case. And now you also said that he doesn't make our offense elite, and yet, the offense is elite no matter who's around him. Our best overall defensive lineup is one with Williams (the aforementioned starting lineup with the 85 DRating). And for more on his offensive impact, his offensive on/off is +7.1. The defense plays better with him in the game too.

good - yes, elite - 100000% no. and again, he has played 98 minutes with the starting lineup. thats just too small a sample to go by

I mean, none of these numbers are perfect, there's obviously a lot of variables, but there's at least something there to support Deron being a positive impact player regardless of the situation. There's something that supports Deron being a major contributor on offense and a non-liability on defense.

he has been awful this season. i dont think that can be denied. to say he has been average as a PG is being kind. the numebrs 100% support that. using 5 man units to show he has an impact i feel is a poor avenue to take.

What exactly is there to support your point? There's no numbers or evidence...in fact, all the evidence directly disagrees with you and says the complete opposite...so what exactly is the basis for you to say that Deron kills us defensively? Or that he doesn't make the offense elite? You seem to remember only very specific instances where we might struggle with Deron on the court, and then ignore the times we do well with Deron on the court, and then not realize that the specific instances you remember are a very small part of a larger sample size in which we actually play really well on both sides of the court with Deron, regardless of who he plays with.

Deron's individual numbers are poor

Deron gets out played by the opposing point gaurd almost every single game

eye test

win-loss record when he doesnt play or comes off the bench vs. when he starts

its a team game, you cant rely on on/off and 5 man units to make an evaluation. especially with such small sample sizes.

at the end of the day all i care about is wins. and we were on our hottest streak of the year when dwill either didint play or came off the bench. since he has started again we are like 5-5 in our last 10 games and have coem back to earth and he has gottend out played in 9 of those 10 games by the opposing PG -- none of who are really any good

i dont get the love for dwill. he has played at a poor mans jameer nelson level

[therealbig3]

i dont get the love for dwill. he has played at a poor mans jameer nelson level

Who says I love D-Will? I've been his biggest critic this season. Nets fans have called me out for hating on him unfairly.

But there comes a point where you have to be objective and understand that many of these criticisms simply aren't true.

For example, I feel like your entire response contradicted itself multiple times, and was really just a huge shifting of the goalposts. You're clearly not going to change your mind and will only see what you want to see. That's fine, everyone is entitled to do that, but you need to understand that a lot of what you're saying just isn't true, and it gets annoying to people that need to put up with it pretty much every other post you make.

[Prokorov]

i dont get the love for dwill. he has played at a poor mans jameer nelson level

Who says I love D-Will? I've been his biggest critic this season. Nets fans have called me out for hating on him unfairly.

But there comes a point where you have to be objective and understand that many of these criticisms simply aren't true.

For example, I feel like your entire response contradicted itself multiple times, and was really just a huge shifting of the goalposts. You're clearly not going to change your mind and will only see what you want to see. That's fine, everyone is entitled to do that, but you need to understand that a lot of what you're saying just isn't true, and it gets annoying to people that need to put up with it pretty much every other post you make.

i dont see what evidence there is to support that the team hasnt been better with dwill on the bench vs. starting. its too narrow to focus on if the starting unit is better with him or not. over 48 minutes our rotations are better when he doesnt start

as far as defense, he is bad. really bad. like among the worst in the league bad. small sample on/off stats that lump his play in with 4 other guys is not a good metric to use imo... especially on a team that has played in so many blowouts, had so many injuries, had so many lineups, and had such swings

[therealbig3]

as far as defense, he is bad. really bad. like among the worst in the league bad. small sample on/off stats that lump his play in with 4 other guys is not a good metric to use imo... especially on a team that has played in so many blowouts, had so many injuries, had so many lineups, and had such swings

But regardless of all of that, this DIRECTLY contradicts one of your major points...Deron hurts us defensively to the point that he's better off playing on a 2nd unit against other teams' 2nd units where his defense isn't as big a liability anymore. Because he's so bad defensively that he causes a breakdown of the entire defense when he's on the court, especially with the starters.

But against 1st units with Deron on the court, the defense is DOMINANT. And if it's a result of everyone covering for him, then this also undermines your point, because clearly the defense isn't breaking apart when Deron is on the court and it's actually pretty easy to cover for his defensive flaws. There's also the very real possibility that you're greatly overexaggerating how bad he is defensively.

How are you not seeing the huge flaw in your logic here?

[Prokorov]

as far as defense, he is bad. really bad. like among the worst in the league bad. small sample on/off stats that lump his play in with 4 other guys is not a good metric to use imo... especially on a team that has played in so many blowouts, had so many injuries, had so many lineups, and had such swings

But regardless of all of that, this DIRECTLY contradicts one of your major points...Deron hurts us defensively to the point that he's better off playing on a 2nd unit against other teams' 2nd units where his defense isn't as big a liability anymore. Because he's so bad defensively that he causes a breakdown of the entire defense when he's on the court, especially with the starters.



i dont think you can compare those. because of how few minutes this current starting unit has been together and how few minutes the livingston/aa/jj/pp/kg group saw together i dont think you can go by the on/off or 5 man unit metrics. just way to small to go on that

But against 1st units with Deron on the court, the defense is DOMINANT. And if it's a result of everyone covering for him, then this also undermines your point, because clearly the defense isn't breaking apart when Deron is on the court and it's actually pretty easy to cover for his defensive flaws. There's also the very real possibility that you're greatly overexaggerating how bad he is defensively.

How are you not seeing the huge flaw in your logic here?

i disagree that this defense has been dominant with him on the court. and would point to small sample size as a flaw in any statistics that would suggest this. and would submit that a game by game look would show we certainly are not elite defensively when williams plays with the starters...

EXAMPLE: Dwill played with the starters vs the spurs. a team playing 3rd string guys. i dont think the stats from that game give a good representation. meanwhile, when he was hurt, we played the warriors who were at the time the hottest team in the NBA

i dont think im exagerating, if anything i think its being understated. every flaw we have defensively can be contributed to him. poor pick and roll defense, defending the 3, gaurd penetration, etc.

he IS that bad. its why we did nothing last year. its why we wont do anythning this year