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Jimenez to Orioles for $4/48m (Deal done)

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Re: Jimenez to Orioles for $4/48m (Deal done) 

Post#121 » by satyr9 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:41 am

Schadenfreude wrote:Yeah, the $5m per likely WAR in free agency back-of-the-napkin calculation is done, that much is clear. I've seen estimates of $6m-$7m, and that's about where you need to peg it to assume that Cincy is pricing in some possibility of Bailey's 2013 not becoming his new normal. Otherwise, it's all downside.

There's a reason that we stockpile arms, and this is it. The biggest change in the market isn't the marginal price of #2/#3/#4 starters relative to each other, it's their price relative to a $500k minimum salary and three years of below-market arbitration to follow. Pitchers tend to hit their stride faster than hitters, while hitters tend to be more consistent year-on-year (and less prone to career-altering maladies) and slotting one of those minimum contracts in rather than a $15m/year mid-rotation guy is a massive, massive savings; manage to slot in two and you can apparently buy a whole new **** team around them.

Buy the bats, raise the pitchers...hasn't worked out quite that way for us, but that seems like it has been the goal in the draft, and frankly it's the only way forward that I can see. I was bemused that we kept taking nothing but arms, but goddamn does this offseason have me thinking that we need to go out in June and draft another thirty high-upside high school pitchers.


What freaks me out about the escalation beyond 5m/war is that we're not seeing the 10% escalation or anything close to that. I think these deals only make any sense for GMs if a majority of them see it at 6 or 7 or whatever now, but more importantly on its way well beyond that in the near future. They're building in the idea of 10m/war return not being an absolute disaster in a couple years. Guaranteeing Homer Bailey 20m 6 years from now today only makes sense if you're okay settling for 1.5-2 war at that point and that's not even close to the worst case.

If a GM can reasonably gamble on 10m/war by the end of currently signed deals, then who the **** knows what anybody's worth anymore. I hate beyond recognition the idea giving Ubaldo 4 years given his recent past, but if he's anything above replacement level at all at that point he might be a total bargain compared to people getting signed that offseason. I wouldn't make that bet, but I think I've underestimated the upside of even a marginally functional 4th year for Ubaldo or Garza or Ervin if he gets the term too. I appreciate a GM not willing to risk his team's future finances on a player with so little potential impact more than most do here, but I'm willing to admit a year from now the deals signed this offseason for the humdrum crop of UFA starters may end up looking like value.

As for the draft, the arms are just the most fungible commodity outside of pure cash in Baseball and a GM's easiest way to develop assets is in player value, might as well have it in the thing that's always in demand by everyone.

The point about the cash savings between developed and paid for SPs is well stated. If one successful SP can save you something like 40-60m just in his pre-arb years compared to a UFA solution the inevitable next step is team's get way more conservative about what they offer in prospects for vets.
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Re: Jimenez to Orioles for $4/48m (Deal done) 

Post#122 » by Michael Bradley » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:46 am

I'd love to have a Rays type of team building philosophy. They are not attached to anyone and never get tied down to bad contracts because of it. They trade guys at peak value after getting peak performance from them rather than pay top dollar for their declining years. Once-a-generation guys like Halladay need to be kept at all costs, but if Bailey's contract is any indication of where the market is going to simply keep your own non-elite developed starters, then I'd like to see the Jays incorporate more of a "get what you can out of a starter and then trade him for blue chip prospects" philosophy. It's probably the best (only?) way to build a self-sustaining baseball team that wins every year, rather than "window periods" like AA created last year.
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Re: Jimenez to Orioles for $4/48m (Deal done) 

Post#123 » by Schad » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:00 am

Michael Bradley wrote:I'd love to have a Rays type of team building philosophy. They are not attached to anyone and never get tied down to bad contracts because of it. They trade guys at peak value after getting peak performance from them rather than pay top dollar for their declining years. Once-a-generation guys like Halladay need to be kept at all costs, but if Bailey's contract is any indication of where the market is going to simply keep your own non-elite developed starters, then I'd like to see the Jays incorporate more of a "get what you can out of a starter and then trade him for blue chip prospects" philosophy. It's probably the best (only?) way to build a self-sustaining baseball team that wins every year, rather than "window periods" like AA created last year.


Or the Cardinals model, ideally, where you stick with your valuations, sign guys to big money when it makes sense, trade them/let them walk when it doesn't, but lean heavily on your farm system to ensure that you can afford those big money signings.
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Re: Jimenez to Orioles for $4/48m (Deal done) 

Post#124 » by satyr9 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:19 am

Schadenfreude wrote:
Michael Bradley wrote:I'd love to have a Rays type of team building philosophy. They are not attached to anyone and never get tied down to bad contracts because of it. They trade guys at peak value after getting peak performance from them rather than pay top dollar for their declining years. Once-a-generation guys like Halladay need to be kept at all costs, but if Bailey's contract is any indication of where the market is going to simply keep your own non-elite developed starters, then I'd like to see the Jays incorporate more of a "get what you can out of a starter and then trade him for blue chip prospects" philosophy. It's probably the best (only?) way to build a self-sustaining baseball team that wins every year, rather than "window periods" like AA created last year.


Or the Cardinals model, ideally, where you stick with your valuations, sign guys to big money when it makes sense, trade them/let them walk when it doesn't, but lean heavily on your farm system to ensure that you can afford those big money signings.


Jesus, mentioning the Cards made me just find out that STL gave Wainwright a cheaper deal than Bailey just got and they signed it less than a year ago (5/97.5). That's how outrageous the escalation is.

And I absolutely agree about Cards being the model for the Jays. One, TB requires a crazy start up pool of assets that we will not have the patience to build. Second, we should have the money to retain an asset or two and dip into the FA waters when necessary. If TB had STL resources they probably would've locked up Price for at least a couple FA years, making their life much easier. I actually think Friedman has gone a bit all in this offseason, spending money he would've held other years to fill remaining holes trying to get a ring while it's all still held together.
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Re: Jimenez to Orioles for $4/48m (Deal done) 

Post#125 » by Schad » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:41 am

Yeah, the Cards are the middle ground where you have money, but only spend it where makes sense. They probably could have afforded Pujols, but thought the price insane, so they let an icon go (and got vilified for it). They opted to fill it internally; Allen Craig has significantly outperformed him in the past two years, got paid $2.2m for the two seasons combined, and they got Michael Wacha with the first rounder received as compensation. Kyle Lohse hit free agency after a stellar season; they didn't like the money he was getting from the Brewers when they had kids knocking at the door, so they took another compensation pick, added another high-upside arm in Rob Kaminsky, and didn't look like they missed Lohse terribly much.

And if they find themselves short a player, or need to hand out a couple big-money extensions to key contributors? Not a problem; they have a float.
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Re: Jimenez to Orioles for $4/48m (Deal done) 

Post#126 » by Michael Bradley » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:46 am

Sure the Cardinals would be the ideal model, but their model of "every pitching prospect pans out, every hitting prospect pans out, and every free agent signing turns into a bargain" is not realistic. They have something in the water over there. Peter Bourjos will have a 4 or 5 WAR this season, and I know that before the season even starts. The Rays at least have some failure rate, so they are more realistic. The Red Sox, under Cherington, is another model the Jays can emulate, but they don't have the desirable destination that the Red Sox do.
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Re: Jimenez to Orioles for $4/48m (Deal done) 

Post#127 » by dagger » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:42 pm

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Re: Jimenez to Orioles for $4/48m (Deal done) 

Post#128 » by torontoaces04 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:52 pm

dagger wrote:Nelson Cruz to the Orioles

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/orioles-ne ... 12802.html


He can thank Melky for that contract...and draft compensation of course.
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Re: Jimenez to Orioles for $4/48m (Deal done) 

Post#129 » by Schad » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:31 am

Michael Bradley wrote:Sure the Cardinals would be the ideal model, but their model of "every pitching prospect pans out, every hitting prospect pans out, and every free agent signing turns into a bargain" is not realistic. They have something in the water over there. Peter Bourjos will have a 4 or 5 WAR this season, and I know that before the season even starts. The Rays at least have some failure rate, so they are more realistic. The Red Sox, under Cherington, is another model the Jays can emulate, but they don't have the desirable destination that the Red Sox do.


I think that the model works even without the otherworldly execution. The general conceit -- spend heavily on player development, keep your prospects wherever possible and get as many roster spots filled by $500k/year players as possible to allow heavy spending elsewhere -- is still a valid one.
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Re: Jimenez to Orioles for $4/48m (Deal done) 

Post#130 » by dagger » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:12 pm

Schadenfreude wrote:
Michael Bradley wrote:Sure the Cardinals would be the ideal model, but their model of "every pitching prospect pans out, every hitting prospect pans out, and every free agent signing turns into a bargain" is not realistic. They have something in the water over there. Peter Bourjos will have a 4 or 5 WAR this season, and I know that before the season even starts. The Rays at least have some failure rate, so they are more realistic. The Red Sox, under Cherington, is another model the Jays can emulate, but they don't have the desirable destination that the Red Sox do.


I think that the model works even without the otherworldly execution. The general conceit -- spend heavily on player development, keep your prospects wherever possible and get as many roster spots filled by $500k/year players as possible to allow heavy spending elsewhere -- is still a valid one.


All makes sense - frankly, the theory works for any North American team sport, salary cap or no - but it depends on whether you actually do allocate your money "to heavy spending elsewhere." If you then have a firewall of rules, like no six-year-or-longer contracts - and overly conservative appraisals of shifting market values, in other words, if you are the Goldilocks of major league teams looking for "just right", you will simply fail with a budget roster. That's why I am so mistrustful of Beeston and Rogers.
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Re: Jimenez to Orioles for $4/48m (Deal done) 

Post#131 » by Michael Bradley » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:00 pm

Schadenfreude wrote:
Michael Bradley wrote:Sure the Cardinals would be the ideal model, but their model of "every pitching prospect pans out, every hitting prospect pans out, and every free agent signing turns into a bargain" is not realistic. They have something in the water over there. Peter Bourjos will have a 4 or 5 WAR this season, and I know that before the season even starts. The Rays at least have some failure rate, so they are more realistic. The Red Sox, under Cherington, is another model the Jays can emulate, but they don't have the desirable destination that the Red Sox do.


I think that the model works even without the otherworldly execution. The general conceit -- spend heavily on player development, keep your prospects wherever possible and get as many roster spots filled by $500k/year players as possible to allow heavy spending elsewhere -- is still a valid one.


Agreed, but with the Jays success rate of developing prospects over the last 15 years, there's going to have to be an overhaul in the organization for that model to work, in terms of drafting, team philosophy, etc.

I like the Rays model because they do not draft that well either (like the Jays) but they make phenomenal trades at the right time and can filter their organization that way. The one time I can recall AA making a Rays type of move was Marcum for Lawrie. I actually thought at the time that the Jays should have gotten more for Marcum, but regardless, looking back it was selling Marcum at just the right time and getting a player back with considerable upside that was going to contribute for at least six years. If the Jays followed that same plan with Romero (after 2011), Morrow (after 2012), and so on, they would have been able to replenish the organization very well, assuming they had replacements for the pitchers they traded (with Marcum they didn't, but they probably assumed Drabek would take over successfully).

But for some reason it seems like the Jays are scared to trade good homegrown or developed players away unless they have to. It's as if they feel the fanbase is so connected to the players that they would mass riot if one was moved. That's just not the way baseball works anymore, at least not for a team that wants sustainable success without a huge payroll. It's one thing when you develop a star and lock them up (i.e. Bautista, Encarnacion), but locking up Romero, Lind, Morrow, and guys like that is probably overkill. You can trade the latter and probably not lose much if you get good talent in return. The former (Bautista/EE) are much harder to replace.

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