2013-14 MVP Discussion Thread Pt II

[James Rustles]

Oh yes, the defensive clinic of the 2012 Finals where LeBron locked down Hakeem 2.0 in Kendrick Perkins to show he is truly the only player in the NBA capable of guarding multiple positions. And you can't forget his game saving block on the great Tiago Splitter in the 2013 Finals. Or him spending all of his possessions on defense on the fully healthy Tony Parker. Except for the ones where Tony Parker won the game down the stretch of course, and hit the game sealing 3 over, well, er, someone else. And Manu Ginobli's one good performance that series leading to a win? Can't imagine who was guarding him for most of those possessions, but surely it wasn't the elite lockdown defender LeBron.

You're right. Haven't seen that elite of defense since Gary Payton in the 1996 Finals.

[Antrim]

No more comments from me, really no point in continuing such an absurd debate.

However I'd advise you to open a new topic. This one should be dedicated to the battle between LeBron and Durant for this years' MVP. I'm pretty sure you got more than enough material to create a whole new thread where you can explain to the whole board what a horrible defender, scorer and leader -and have you seen his hairline?- LeBron James is. I won't read it, but I bet someone will.

[Colbinii]

Oh yes, the defensive clinic of the 2012 Finals where LeBron locked down Hakeem 2.0 in Kendrick Perkins to show he is truly the only player in the NBA capable of guarding multiple positions. And you can't forget his game saving block on the great Tiago Splitter in the 2013 Finals. Or him spending all of his possessions on defense on the fully healthy Tony Parker. Except for the ones where Tony Parker won the game down the stretch of course, and hit the game sealing 3 over, well, er, someone else. And Manu Ginobli's one good performance that series leading to a win? Can't imagine who was guarding him for most of those possessions, but surely it wasn't the elite lockdown defender LeBron.

You're right. Haven't seen that elite of defense since Gary Payton in the 1996 Finals.

When did Parker hit the 3?

There are maybe a handful of players who could have blocked that Splitter Dunk attempt from where Lebron was, and those players are 6' 10'' + and DPOY candidates.

Your posts are hard to take seriously. You don't use stats. You don't sound serious and use sarcasm to attack other posters. Nobody is going to want to respond to your posts or take them for anything meaningful posting like a Troll.

I am sorry, but you should change your attitude in posting in threads when you make an outlandish claim. Making Outlandish Claims and making everyone seem stupid for disagreeing with your ridiculous, un-factual, weightless notions is just the beginning of your end on this site, sorry.

I recommend you act like an adult when speaking to other adults. Acting 5 on an adult heavy website isn't really wanted by other adults like myself and others.

Cheers.

[James Rustles]

Actually, if you look above I began to post stats on how LeBron has been nothing more than an average defender this season. I got mocked and then challenged anyone to bring up stats opposing what I am saying knowing that the stats all back my claim (and I have plenty to show you if you'd like). But those stats are treated as blasphemy in regards to ranking LeBrons defense so I was forced to counter whatever was thrown out next, which was the apparent notion that LeBron put on a "defensive clinic" in the last two Finals series.

I could care less if my claim is considered "outlandish" when the stats back up everything I am saying.

Like the other poster said though, I don't want to detract this thread from being an MVP discussion, LeBrons defense was brought up and I just threw out some of the stats that show how overrated he is on that end of the floor and a big deal was made about it (with no real substance being used to counter my points) as if it was blasphemy.

[Jipluralx]

Actually, if you look above I began to post stats on how LeBron has been nothing more than an average defender this season. I got mocked and then challenged anyone to bring up stats opposing what I am saying knowing that the stats all back my claim (and I have plenty to show you if you'd like). But those stats are treated as blasphemy in regards to ranking LeBrons defense so I was forced to counter whatever was thrown out next, which was the apparent notion that LeBron put on a "defensive clinic" in the last two Finals series.

I could care less if my claim is considered "outlandish" when the stats back up everything I am saying.

Like the other poster said though, I don't want to detract this thread from being an MVP discussion, LeBrons defense was brought up and I just threw out some of the stats that show how overrated he is on that end of the floor and a big deal was made about it (with no real substance being used to counter my points) as if it was blasphemy.

Regarding your love for sinergy stats, I have this for you:
Last season, James allowed 0.84 points per possesion on defense (better than Heat as a team, which was at 0.86).
Marc Gasol allowed 0.76 points per possesion, which is less of course, but not really that much. And you have to consider that James just had a lot more responsibility on the denfensive end for his team than Marc did.

Another stat tells you, that James held his opponents to 37.6% shooting, Gasol on the other hand to just 38.2%. Plus, he guarded more defensive sets (833) than Gasol (633), which makes it even more impressive.

To go even deeper into defensive stats:
James allowed 0.58 points per post-up (ranked seventh in NBA) and 0.51 points when guarding the roll man off of pick-and-rolls (ranked third in NBA).
To compare those stats with other elite defenders: Tony Allen allowed 0.85 points per post-up, while Marc Gasol allowed 0.77 points when defending the roll man.

And as I said before, and for me that is actually one of the most important criterions, it's necessary to sometimes only use and trust your eyes!! James can guard anybody from 1-4. Anybody! Just watch some Heat games and you instantly know what I'm talking about.

I don't wanne argue that James was the clear cut candidate for DPOY the past two seasons, but to say he is one of the most overrated defenders ever is just... I just don't know what to say.

[QRich3]

Well I don't think anyone doubts Lebron's ability to defend when he puts full effort into it. Probably hasn't had any season that deserved being close to DPOY, and probably a bit overrated by the media, but still a great defender.

If we're talking about this season though, he's been bad, really bad. As in hurting his team kind of bad. He seems to have made a conscious effort to show everybody that he can still do it in the last few weeks, when he realised he'll have to if he wants to keep his name in the MVP race, but that doesn't compensate for half a season of half assed effort. I thought this was common thinking and many analysts have talked about it during the season, and that was the main reason he's behind Durant on the race. Because if we look at offense only, he's still having a historic season.

[The_Dream]

But Durant is close to a "motivated" Lebron. In February, Durant is putting up 33/8/7 on 48%. Lebron is putting up 31/9/7 on 56%.

How is this close exactly? The FG% alone is enough to put LeBron way above Durant IN THIS MONTH (February).

[Colbinii]

Actually, if you look above I began to post stats on how LeBron has been nothing more than an average defender this season. I got mocked and then challenged anyone to bring up stats opposing what I am saying knowing that the stats all back my claim (and I have plenty to show you if you'd like). But those stats are treated as blasphemy in regards to ranking LeBrons defense so I was forced to counter whatever was thrown out next, which was the apparent notion that LeBron put on a "defensive clinic" in the last two Finals series.

I could care less if my claim is considered "outlandish" when the stats back up everything I am saying.

Like the other poster said though, I don't want to detract this thread from being an MVP discussion, LeBrons defense was brought up and I just threw out some of the stats that show how overrated he is on that end of the floor and a big deal was made about it (with no real substance being used to counter my points) as if it was blasphemy.

What stats? I don't see any on this page.

You are right, LeBron has been an "Average defender" this year. At times, he has been subpar, and at other times, he has looked like the best defender in the league BY A MARGIN.

The point is, LeBron doesn't care about the regular season other than getting 1st or 2nd seed, which is locked up. The fact that you are trying to prove LeBron isn't a good defender based on his "Coasting" is pathetic.

You, me, Durant fans, Kobe Fans, MJ Fans, all of us know that come MEANINGFUL GAMES, LeBron is and will be a top 5 defender in the league, like he always has been.

Also, you should know since you talk like you are an educated fan, that LeBrons defense is a GOAT level because of his HELP DEFENSE, not ON-Ball Defense (Which he is no slouch at either, See Pau Gasol Video for example). Sure, his On-Ball Defense may not be GOAT level, but his help defense, especially for a SF, is one of the best I have ever seen.

[James Rustles]

Yes, at times Rudy Gay has been a supbar scorer, and at other times he has looked like the best scorer in the league BY A MARGIN. What you are saying there means literally nothing.

Like someone above said, LeBron has played half assed defense for most of the season. If Melo or Harden do that, they get crucified. If LeBron does it, oh, he's still an elite defender, and it''s just an admirable effort of him not trying to play good defense, so the stats can't be used against him in an argument of him being overrated on that end of the floor.

The logic being used here is facepalm worthy. To call LeBron a top 5 defender and act like everyone on board with that is facepalm worthy as well. You're taking LeBrons defense over Jokaim Noah, Roy Hibbert, Anthony Davis, Marc Gasol, Tim Duncan, Serge Ibaka, plus a number of perimeter defenders that make a living on that end of the floor (see Avery Bradley when he actually pushes his man back in the halfcourt forcing a lot of late shotclock offensive failures) then go ahead. But to act like it should be accepted as fact is extremely moronic.

[ThePersianFreak]

DO NOT feed the troll guys!

[therealbig3]

If we're talking about this season though, he's been bad, really bad. As in hurting his team kind of bad.

I think this is a gross over-exaggeration.

[raps_aviator]

Yes, at times Rudy Gay has been a supbar scorer, and at other times he has looked like the best scorer in the league BY A MARGIN. What you are saying there means literally nothing.

Like someone above said, LeBron has played half assed defense for most of the season. If Melo or Harden do that, they get crucified. If LeBron does it, oh, he's still an elite defender, and it''s just an admirable effort of him not trying to play good defense, so the stats can't be used against him in an argument of him being overrated on that end of the floor.

The logic being used here is facepalm worthy. To call LeBron a top 5 defender and act like everyone on board with that is facepalm worthy as well. You're taking LeBrons defense over Jokaim Noah, Roy Hibbert, Anthony Davis, Marc Gasol, Tim Duncan, Serge Ibaka, plus a number of perimeter defenders that make a living on that end of the floor (see Avery Bradley when he actually pushes his man back in the halfcourt forcing a lot of late shotclock offensive failures) then go ahead. But to act like it should be accepted as fact is extremely moronic.

Damn, you need to stop talking.

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

Damn, you need to stop talking.

Yeah, he is overreacting but I think I understand what he wants to say. And that's not that LeBron isn't great defender it's that LeBron doesn't show it this year (except last few weeks) He can be a beast on both ends (and he was last 10 years) but he just doesn't play like that this year. Of course he is still better than almost everyone but that's other story.

[pukaface]

Bruh, Rudy Gay has never looked like the best scorer in the NBA. Ever. Ever. He's looked way better in Sacto, but he's never looked like the best scorer in the league, that's absurd.

But yeah, like others have said, LeBron is an elite defender WHEN he tries. That's all it really comes down to. This year he has kinda half-assed it. In an important game LeBron is a top 10 top 5 defender, but this season he might not be since he hasn't put enough strong efforts together. So he probably doesn't deserve DPOY over dudes who kill it on the defensive end night in and out (Noah, Hibbert, PG, Tony Allen etc). But in no way does that mean that he's not an elite defender.

[ThePersianFreak]

Other than 2012 LeBron never has played DPOY caliber defense. DPOY should go to a player that plays great defense night in and night out. it's not just about LeBron, it's about every player that carries a heavy load on the offensive end, you can't play 82 games 100% on both ends every damn year (though it's easier to play like that if yuo're a center).
And i don't think we will see that kinda effort from LeBron ever again.
This year he's been bad though, very bad until past few weeks. the good thing for Mia is that they know LeBron plays 100% on both ends when they play in ECF & Finals,

[Colbinii]

Damn, you need to stop talking.

Yeah, he is overreacting but I think I understand what he wants to say. And that's not that LeBron isn't great defender it's that LeBron doesn't show it this year (except last few weeks) He can be a beast on both ends (and he was last 10 years) but he just doesn't play like that this year. Of course he is still better than almost everyone but that's other story.

The thing that guy doesn't understand is he keeps bringing up Previous Finals to use as examples, yet is saying he is bad this year using example NOT from this season. Also, nobody is saying LeBron has been a great defender, only that when he needs to be, he will be one of the leagues best defenders and the best help wing defender in the league. He should also do some research because Man to Man defense (Avery Bradley) isn't nearly as important to a team than Help defense (LeBron James).

He is letting is hatred towards LeBron dictate his thought even if they are Straw-man arguments that nobody is really arguing.

[James Rustles]

Other than 2012 LeBron never has played DPOY caliber defense. DPOY should go to a player that plays great defense night in and night out. it's not just about LeBron, it's about every player that carries a heavy load on the offensive end, you can't play 82 games 100% on both ends every damn year (though it's easier to play like that if yuo're a center).
And i don't think we will see that kinda effort from LeBron ever again.
This year he's been bad though, very bad until past few weeks. the good thing for Mia is that they know LeBron plays 100% on both ends when they play in ECF & Finals,

I agree with most of this. Good to see an objective post from someone who appears to be a LeBron fan based off of your username.

And Colbinii, I have no hatred for LeBron. He's one of my favorite players to watch and I regularly watch the Heat because they are an exciting team to watch. I just think you have to be disrespecting the game and players who making a living on the defensive end of the floor to call LeBron an elite defender when as pretty much everyone has agreed this season that he's been far from an elite defender and at times a liability on that end of the floor.

I get it, I get the appeal. Great help defender, versatile, can lockdown and play pretty good man to man defense when he wants to. I'm simply saying playing elite defense for 3-4 minutes a game and otherwise having a very minimal impact doesn't constitute being an elite defender at all.

Help defense is of course important but if you want to build an elite defense you're taking bigs who can play elite help defense and wings who can play lockdown man defense. Not the other way around. Of course people like to skew that when it comes to a star like LeBron to overhype what he does well though.

[Jon Connor]

Other than 2012 LeBron never has played DPOY caliber defense. DPOY should go to a player that plays great defense night in and night out. it's not just about LeBron, it's about every player that carries a heavy load on the offensive end, you can't play 82 games 100% on both ends every damn year (though it's easier to play like that if yuo're a center).
And i don't think we will see that kinda effort from LeBron ever again.
This year he's been bad though, very bad until past few weeks. the good thing for Mia is that they know LeBron plays 100% on both ends when they play in ECF & Finals,

I agree with most of this. Good to see an objective post from someone who appears to be a LeBron fan based off of your username.

And Colbinii, I have no hatred for LeBron. He's one of my favorite players to watch and I regularly watch the Heat because they are an exciting team to watch. I just think you have to be disrespecting the game and players who making a living on the defensive end of the floor to call LeBron an elite defender when as pretty much everyone has agreed this season that he's been far from an elite defender and at times a liability on that end of the floor.

I get it, I get the appeal. Great help defender, versatile, can lockdown and play pretty good man to man defense when he wants to. I'm simply saying playing elite defense for 3-4 minutes a game and otherwise having a very minimal impact doesn't constitute being an elite defender at all.

Help defense is of course important but if you want to build an elite defense you're taking bigs who can play elite help defense and wings who can play lockdown man defense. Not the other way around. Of course people like to skew that when it comes to a star like LeBron to overhype what he does well though.

The problem is you're completely ignoring how LeBron's defensive ability and versatility keeps the Heat from being slaughtered down low every night. In today's league help defense is more important than man defense. When LeBron is locked in on D he can wreak havoc on the other team and make things very difficult for them in a number of ways.

There is literally no argument to make that LeBron issn't an elite defender. Has he had an off-year defensively? Yes and a large part of that is because he was coasting. Dont take this as me saying he has an excuse this year because i know he hasnt played defense the way he is capable of but look at the past few years. He's been at the very least a top 5 defender in the league. And honestly when it comes to those stretches or important games where stops are needed hes the most impactful wing defender in the league imo. There's many examples of this: shutting down Rose in the 4th quarters of the 2011 ECF, limiting Parker when he was previously playing great, and playing string defense against David West who bullies the Heat. Those are just examples from the big games. If you watched him consistently, you wouldn't need to refer to defensive stats (which mean very little, Carlos Boozer anyone?) to see his impact. Keep in mind that I'm not talking specifically about this year, I'm talking about his defense since hes been a Heatle. Hes already been playing fantastic defense since just before the All Star Break when he decided he was going to turn it up a notch and show people that he has a gear that makes him the best player in the game.

[James Rustles]

The problem is you're completely ignoring how LeBron's defensive ability and versatility keeps the Heat from being slaughtered down low every night.

Well I mean, the Heat are playing better defense with LeBron off the floor than they are with him on the floor...

[Joao Saraiva]

Is this the MVP thread or the DPOY thread?

LeBron has proved he's one of the best defenders in the NBA, was robbed of DPOY at least twice. That's enough this about the MVP.

And if you want to talk defense on a MVP race yes LeBron he's a lot better than Kevin Durant on D. Of course a bunch of guys will tell you no, but those are the ones who would put LeBron in the same class as Bargnani or current Stoudemire, so there is no need to argue.