NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 2

[Nivek]

I think your idea would be extremely expensive and difficult to execute. How many different cameras would you need on the floor to officiate the game properly? 10? 20? What happens in the event they fail? I don't see how the flow of the game wouldn't be ruined by the delay inevitable delay between when a foul is seen and when it's called on floor.

I don't think it would take more than three HD cameras positioned properly. Have the refs sitting at the scorers table, if you like -- or in a box upstairs. Have them press a button when they spot a foul, which triggers a sound in the stadium. Then relay the call verbally to the announcer, same as they do when they walk over -- just over a headset. The guys on the floor would be there to manage game flow and break up fights.

All the technology to do this already exists.

Only real difficulty in my mind would be out-of-bounds calls. Might need a few more cameras to track the lines.

It would increase costs some, but this is a multi-billion dollar business that has virtually guaranteed profit levels by virtue of the latest CBA.

[nuposse04]

If Cousins uppercutted Joey Crawford I'd probably love him forever. I'll keep the dream alive

[Severn Hoos]

This, by the way, would be a benefit of my "get the refs off the floor" idea. If the game-managers on the floor weren't the guys making the call, there'd be no one to yell at and there's probably no incident. Cousins could howl at the press box or the guys watching the HD monitors back in NYC, but there'd be no target. He'd probably just look for the replay, call the monitor jockeys a bunch of MFers and get back to work.

Kev, I presume you have seen the call at the end of the Duke-Syracuse game that sent Boeheim into orbit? I'm curious to hear your opinion on it?

I have stated my opinion that I absolutely hate the charging call, with the exception of cases like Shaq simply bulling over a defender who is in place and has been set for some time. I love that the NBA has added the "verticality" rule, so that the issue is the shooter going into the defender and not just that the defender has to have both feet planted before contact.

What I hate, however, is exactly what happened at the end of that game. The Duke player made no effort to block the ball, distract the shooter, or play anything resembling "defense" in its purest form, IMO. He just ran to a spot and hoped for a call. Any time (OK, 90% of the time) you do something intentionally to draw a whistle is weak sauce - whether it's flopping on defense or jumping sideways to go into a defender while "shooting". I adamantly believe that the game is worse for these developments.

Al lthat said, I heard many times the issue stated (including Swofford's weak answer when asked, calling it a "judgment call") as whether the defender had his "feet set" before the "gather". But when you watch the replay carefully, the left foot is still being dragged into place right up until the point of contact.

So, technically - if the letter of the rule says the feet must be planted (don't know the actual wording?), it couldn't have been a charge, even if the defender's body was in position before the gather.

I guess the question is - how would your proposal handle that call? slo-mo replay on the feet? How do you call it, block or charge?

[Ruzious]

I think your idea would be extremely expensive and difficult to execute. How many different cameras would you need on the floor to officiate the game properly? 10? 20? What happens in the event they fail? I don't see how the flow of the game wouldn't be ruined by the delay inevitable delay between when a foul is seen and when it's called on floor.

I don't think it would take more than three HD cameras positioned properly. Have the refs sitting at the scorers table, if you like -- or in a box upstairs. Have them press a button when they spot a foul, which triggers a sound in the stadium. Then relay the call verbally to the announcer, same as they do when they walk over -- just over a headset. The guys on the floor would be there to manage game flow and break up fights.

All the technology to do this already exists.

Only real difficulty in my mind would be out-of-bounds calls. Might need a few more cameras to track the lines.

It would increase costs some, but this is a multi-billion dollar business that has virtually guaranteed profit levels by virtue of the latest CBA.

I like your draft lottery idea much better. It sounds a little too Jetsonsish. And using 3 cameras, there are going to be blind spots, and players are going to find them and adapt. It'll be another way to learn how to cheat successfully (gamesmanship) - not that they don't already do that sort of thing. And I don't mind watching a bit of heat between the players and officials. Sometimes the officials need some "feedback", so to speak.

[Ruzious]

Sev, I don't think replays are going to help in those situations. People are just going to get more frustrated that it took an extra 10 minutes to get the wrong call.

[Severn Hoos]

Sev, I don't think replays are going to help in those situations. People are just going to get more frustrated that it took an extra 10 minutes to get the wrong call.

Good point, Ruz - as the NFL learned with the 10 minute delays, only to hear the refs come out from under the hood to say "Inconclusive"

Still feels good to rant on that one - and simply put, his left foot was sliding, so I'm with Jim, it's a clear cut block:

* Before the offensive player (with the ball) becomes airborne, the defender must have two feet on the floor, be facing the opponent and be stationary to draw a charge. Otherwise, it should be a blocking foul.
* Secondary defenders (help defenders) moving forward or to the side are also in violation and those should be blocking fouls.
* Contact that is “through the chest” is not de facto proof of a charge. The rule in its entirety must be considered before determining a foul.
* In some cases, it appears a defender is being rewarded solely for being outside the arc, without considering the other aspects of the rules.

No matter what else is said, the left foot is sliding - and the player is a secondary defender. It's a charge. Any other answer is someone justifying Duke or the referees (but I repeat myself...)

[Nivek]

This, by the way, would be a benefit of my "get the refs off the floor" idea. If the game-managers on the floor weren't the guys making the call, there'd be no one to yell at and there's probably no incident. Cousins could howl at the press box or the guys watching the HD monitors back in NYC, but there'd be no target. He'd probably just look for the replay, call the monitor jockeys a bunch of MFers and get back to work.

Kev, I presume you have seen the call at the end of the Duke-Syracuse game that sent Boeheim into orbit? I'm curious to hear your opinion on it?

I have stated my opinion that I absolutely hate the charging call, with the exception of cases like Shaq simply bulling over a defender who is in place and has been set for some time. I love that the NBA has added the "verticality" rule, so that the issue is the shooter going into the defender and not just that the defender has to have both feet planted before contact.

What I hate, however, is exactly what happened at the end of that game. The Duke player made no effort to block the ball, distract the shooter, or play anything resembling "defense" in its purest form, IMO. He just ran to a spot and hoped for a call. Any time (OK, 90% of the time) you do something intentionally to draw a whistle is weak sauce - whether it's flopping on defense or jumping sideways to go into a defender while "shooting". I adamantly believe that the game is worse for these developments.

Al lthat said, I heard many times the issue stated (including Swofford's weak answer when asked, calling it a "judgment call") as whether the defender had his "feet set" before the "gather". But when you watch the replay carefully, the left foot is still being dragged into place right up until the point of contact.

So, technically - if the letter of the rule says the feet must be planted (don't know the actual wording?), it couldn't have been a charge, even if the defender's body was in position before the gather.

I guess the question is - how would your proposal handle that call? slo-mo replay on the feet? How do you call it, block or charge?

Haven't seen the play. I heard about it. I'll try and check it out later. I'd minimize replay for officiating as much as possible. I already think it's overused.

[Nivek]

I think your idea would be extremely expensive and difficult to execute. How many different cameras would you need on the floor to officiate the game properly? 10? 20? What happens in the event they fail? I don't see how the flow of the game wouldn't be ruined by the delay inevitable delay between when a foul is seen and when it's called on floor.

I don't think it would take more than three HD cameras positioned properly. Have the refs sitting at the scorers table, if you like -- or in a box upstairs. Have them press a button when they spot a foul, which triggers a sound in the stadium. Then relay the call verbally to the announcer, same as they do when they walk over -- just over a headset. The guys on the floor would be there to manage game flow and break up fights.

All the technology to do this already exists.

Only real difficulty in my mind would be out-of-bounds calls. Might need a few more cameras to track the lines.

It would increase costs some, but this is a multi-billion dollar business that has virtually guaranteed profit levels by virtue of the latest CBA.

I like your draft lottery idea much better. It sounds a little too Jetsonsish. And using 3 cameras, there are going to be blind spots, and players are going to find them and adapt. It'll be another way to learn how to cheat successfully (gamesmanship) - not that they don't already do that sort of thing. And I don't mind watching a bit of heat between the players and officials. Sometimes the officials need some "feedback", so to speak.

I think the TV view is often superior to what the refs can see when they're running up and down the floor, trying to focus on their areas of responsibility, trying to make sure they're out of the way, etc. I think a little distance might help.

As for the feedback, the other part of my idea would be to have the officials "graded" for every game, and to have those grades made public. As in, there should be a page on NBA.com, basketball-reference, etc. that shows a refs correct call percentage and overall grade, as adjudicated by the grading team.

[Severn Hoos]

Haven't seen the play. I heard about it. I'll try and check it out later. I'd minimize replay for officiating as much as possible. I already think it's overused.

Thanks. FWIW, I wasn't implying that it would be a replay issue. I was thinking in terms of how the video would show something (the sliding of the left foot) that would be tougher to pick up in real time from a distance/angle. I'm kind of agreeing with you in that a video monitor would have seen more clearly (IMO) what the on-floor referee did not.

[pineappleheadindc]

.

So yeah, TNT pulled the plug on the Knicks vs Heat game tonight, citing the mercy rule. (The Knicks board is in mourning over their impending loss of Melo).

The Good: The Wiz and Raptors both got some national exposure.
The Good: John Wall saved his best for last, his end of game heroics came after the TNT switch.

The Bad. Knicks G Tim Hardaway, Jr.'s line.

6 points (2-15 fgs, 0-8 3pt, 2-2 ft), 3 boards, 0 dimes, 0 steals, 0 blocks, 1 foul in 34 minutes. -35 for the game.

Ouch.

[Youheardme90]

What the hell happened to Denver ? Lost 9 of 10.

[pancakes3]

What the hell happened to Denver ? Lost 9 of 10.

That's what happens when you go toe to toe with Andre Miller.

[Illmatic21]

What the hell happened to Denver ? Lost 9 of 10.

Darrell Arthur, PF DNP LEFT HIP INJURY
Wilson Chandler, SF DNP RIGHT KNEE INJURY
Nate Robinson, PG DNP LEFT ACL
Ty Lawson, PG DNP LEFT RIB FRACTURE


Decimated by injuries. They weren't exactly worldbeaters before but it's hard to overcome all those losses, especially Lawson.

[Nivek]

Haven't seen the play. I heard about it. I'll try and check it out later. I'd minimize replay for officiating as much as possible. I already think it's overused.

Thanks. FWIW, I wasn't implying that it would be a replay issue. I was thinking in terms of how the video would show something (the sliding of the left foot) that would be tougher to pick up in real time from a distance/angle. I'm kind of agreeing with you in that a video monitor would have seen more clearly (IMO) what the on-floor referee did not.

Finally saw the play. At full speed, it looked like a charge to me.

[Induveca]

Refereeing via camera is a technical and financial nightmare.

Teams would have to invest 30 million EACH in INITIAL infrastructure. 840 million leaguewide.

Considering the unavoidable ongoing glitches/costs, general public skepticism, server reboots during games, the referee union etc? Not going to happen.

If it were implemented, there is a very REAL possibility of having to scrap the entire system depending on fan reaction/PR issues/technical upkeep and unforeseen infrastructure cost. It's pretty much the definition of a bad investment.

[Nivek]

Where do you get $30 million?

If that's the real cost, then yeah -- it's not gonna happen. But I'd need to see the math on that one. Unless they get the Pentagon to do procurement.

[Youheardme90]

What the hell happened to Denver ? Lost 9 of 10.

Darrell Arthur, PF DNP LEFT HIP INJURY
Wilson Chandler, SF DNP RIGHT KNEE INJURY
Nate Robinson, PG DNP LEFT ACL
Ty Lawson, PG DNP LEFT RIB FRACTURE


Decimated by injuries. They weren't exactly worldbeaters before but it's hard to overcome all those losses, especially Lawson.

I figured it was injuries, that was causing the bad play. Ty Lawson makes that team go. JanVes getting more playing time than he could ever ask for.

[Youheardme90]

What the hell happened to Denver ? Lost 9 of 10.

That's what happens when you go toe to toe with Andre Miller.

Does anyone recall that Andre Miller, injury voodoo rumor ? Something like he was sucking all of the good health out of the other players on his team, so that he could keep his consecutive games streak going.

[Youheardme90]

The Best NBA Scorers in 2013-14: This List Will Surprise You [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DTi88jYjOA[/youtube]

[pineappleheadindc]

The Knicks are getting blasted. Yet again.

Melo looks both frustrated and embarrassed. I feel bad for him.

Look, I am not a fan of Melo's game. I honestly wouldn't want him on the Wizards. But I respect Melo's effort, his commitment. Not in a chucking sense. He's willing to get the blue collar boards. He's not afraid to get his hands dirty. He gives real effort every night.

That's more than you can say about the rest of that motley crew.

Melo needs to ditch the Knicks. They have no future in the next 5 years. That is one dysfunctional organization.