James Harden

[Rip2137]

But do you honestly think that deal is nearly as good as the one they got? And why would they want Josh(about to become a free agent) when they traded Harden thinking HIS price would be too high. Their clear goal there was getting younger players, picks, and saving money. You are basically suggesting they would have traded for two guys they would have lost in free agency and a bad first rounder...and Jenkins...

Dude...you can't rant on how everyone knew Josh was garbage one minute then make him the center piece of a big trade another. And this still doesn't address the fact they had just reuped Serge Ibaka at Smiths position. Or that they had just paid Westbrook at Teague position. You can't possibly think that trade is better than Martin, Lamb, 2 first founders and a 2nd rounder.

[parson]

We had just gotten rid of Joe. I, for one, was guy-shy about committing all our monies to another SG.

[Jamaaliver]

We had just gotten rid of Joe. I, for one, was guy-shy about committing all our monies to another SG.

Fair point. And in retrospect, I think we all were.

But do you honestly think that deal is nearly as good as the one they got? And why would they want Josh(about to become a free agent) when they traded Harden thinking HIS price would be too high

Perhaps. Like I said, a good starting point for negotiations. It's worth remembering that Josh's stock was at an all time high as he'd just averaged career highs in points and rebounding. In fact, his production exceed Harden's in every facet from the regular season prior.

They were hoping for an NBA title. Josh and Teague would get them closer to that goal than Kevin Martin and unproven youngsters. In all honesty, I think they survive a Westbrook injury if Teague starts at PG in his stead and Josh becomes their 2nd banana.

As much as I hate Josh, a lineup with Smoove, Teague, Durant and Westbrook had a chance of being one of the best lineups we've seen in years.

NOTE: For a shot at Harden or Westbrook, I'd have even considered taking back Kendrick Perkins, too. If it got the deal done.

[Jamaaliver]

You can't possibly think that trade is better than Martin, Lamb, 2 first founders and a 2nd rounder.

Are Kevin Martin & Jeremy Lamb better than Josh Smith and Jeff Teague? Yikes. If so, Jeff and Josh are more garbage than even I knew.....

[Rip2137]

This isn't NBA 2k. You are building a team, not a high rating. Josh plays the same position as Ibaka and Ibaka can't play Center. So you move Josh or Ibaka to the bench? They weren't Psychic and knew Westbrook would go down. So Teague and Westbrook at the same position?

If you move those guys to the bench, no way they are resigning so they would have been trading Harden for some mid to late round draft picks and that's it.

[Jamaaliver]

This isn't NBA 2k. You are building a team, not a high rating. Josh plays the same position as Ibaka and Ibaka can't play Center. So you move Josh or Ibaka to the bench? They weren't Psychic and knew Westbrook would go down. So Teague and Westbrook at the same position?

If you move those guys to the bench, no way they are resigning so they would have been trading Harden for some mid to late round draft picks and that's it.

Perhaps. But Harden came off the bench and played point with Russ Westbrook moving to off-guard.

they traded for Kevin Martin who comes off the bench.

They traded for Jeremy Lamb who comes off the bench.

They acquired Steven Adams with a pick in the early teens (12) who comes off the bench.

OKC traded their super 6th man and their starting lineup never changed. (Until the Westbrook injuries.)

How would they know where the 1st round picks would be placed if it was a future trade for the following year's draft? Would the 16th pick have been drastically worse than the 12th pick they ended up with?

Would they have cared if they'd won an NBA title? That's my point. They were a very good team on the verge of a title run. Our two starters plus picks gets them closer to a title today than Houston's backup SG & unproven players.

[Rip2137]

Because they would have known a team with James Harden, Lou Williams and Al Horford in a weaker East would make the playoffs.

James Harden with...Jeremy lin and Omar Asik? That doesn't sound like a playoff team in the West.

With the trade with Houston, they retain a top 12 pick even if Martin leaves and get more picks from a team that realistically doesn't look like a playoff team unless they add other pieces(which they did). In your trade with the Hawks, they are left with, at best, John Jenkins(a guy who was drafted 10 spots behind Lamb in the same draft by the way) because there is clearly NO WAY they would pay to retain Smith and Teague.

Ibaka could play Center, then they would have done it probably. But he can't. Now if you said Horford, Jenkins, and Maybe Zaza and picks for Harden and the rest of that trash they sent out, then maybe you are talking about something that wouldn't get you hung up on. But I personally don't like that trade. I don't see how you think players at positions that they don't need, playing in roles they aren't accustomed to makes them better.

I completely get where you are headed there, I just think its an extremely unrealistic trade that I think you believe is better than it actually is. It doesn't speak to Smith and Teague's value, it speaks to Smith and Teague's value to the THUNDER who just maxed out their PF and PG.

[Jamaaliver]

^You lost me. All I know is that OKC is about winning championships. They were forced to trade one of their top players due to economics. All they got in return was a one-dimensional SG on an expiring deal and unproven prospects.

We offer two starting caliber players to them, plus prospects...they at least hear us out.

We offer to take Perkins off their hands. They HAVE to consider it.

They settled big time because they needed to move Harden ASAP. Unlike our GM who sat idly by and did nothing.

Except offer a friggin' contract extension to Josh 'Midrange Shawty' Smith.

Whether they bring Teague off the bench, or if they start Josh...it gives them depth, options, defense.


Man, a rotation with Thabo, Ibaka and Smoove causing havok defensively. Plus the offense of Durant and Wstbrook. I honestly think they get back to the Finals easily with that lineup.

[Jamaaliver]

Or is the thought of Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb and middling draft picks better than actually competing for a champinship again....

[Jamaaliver]

Because they would have known a team with James Harden, Lou Williams and Al Horford in a weaker East would make the playoffs.

James Harden with...Jeremy lin and Omar Asik? That doesn't sound like a playoff team in the West.

With the trade with Houston, they retain a top 12 pick even if Martin leaves and get more picks from a team that realistically doesn't look like a playoff team unless they add other pieces(which they did). In your trade with the Hawks, they are left with, at best, John Jenkins(a guy who was drafted 10 spots behind Lamb in the same draft by the way) because there is clearly NO WAY they would pay to retain Smith and Teague.

You do understand it wasn't Houston's 2013 pick they received, right.
We owned HOU's 2013 draft pick from the JJ trade.
Which is precisely what I'm suggesting we'd have traded.

So, yeah, the draft pick from Houston ( a team featuring Lin and Asik) would have been very appealing to them....

[GTO]

Because they would have known a team with James Harden, Lou Williams and Al Horford in a weaker East would make the playoffs.

James Harden with...Jeremy lin and Omar Asik? That doesn't sound like a playoff team in the West.

With the trade with Houston, they retain a top 12 pick even if Martin leaves and get more picks from a team that realistically doesn't look like a playoff team unless they add other pieces(which they did). In your trade with the Hawks, they are left with, at best, John Jenkins(a guy who was drafted 10 spots behind Lamb in the same draft by the way) because there is clearly NO WAY they would pay to retain Smith and Teague.

You do understand it wasn't Houston's 2013 pick they received, right.
We owned HOU's 2013 draft pick from the JJ trade.
Which is precisely what I'm suggesting we'd have traded.

So, yeah, the draft pick from Houston ( a team featuring Lin and Asik) would have been very appealing to them....

The pick was lotto protected for several years and turns into 2nd rounder if HOU never gets into the lottery for the duration. So, however bad HOU would have been the pick was never gonna be a high pick.

[MaceCase]

^Yo All I know is that OKC is about winning championships. They were forced to trade one of their top players due to economics

You contradicted yourself tremendously. If they were about winning championships then economics wouldn't matter. They would have held on to the core that just got them to the Finals at least for that season instead of moving Harden a full year before economics would have even been a factor and even then it would be dubious considering that they would still have the option of amnestying Perkins.

Additionally, you're the master of running to the hills with every blog "rumor" out there yet you are omitting the actual reported fact that Presti offered Harden to GS and Washington for Klay Thompson and Beal before the Houston deal. Are you seeing a trend there? Trading their SG in the last year of his rookie deal for SGs in the first or 2nd year of theirs as opposed to looking at guys that play the exact same position as the ones they just offered $130 million to?

[Jamaaliver]

^Yo All I know is that OKC is about winning championships. They were forced to trade one of their top players due to economics

You contradicted yourself tremendously. If they were about winning championships then economics wouldn't matter. They would have held on to the core that just got them to the Finals at least for that season instead of moving Harden a full year before economics would have even been a factor and even then it would be dubious considering that they would still have the option of amnestying Perkins.

Additionally, you're the master of running to the hills with every blog "rumor" out there yet you are omitting the actual reported fact that Presti offered Harden to GS and Washington for Klay Thompson and Beal before the Houston deal. Are you seeing a trend there? Trading their SG in the last year of his rookie deal for SGs in the first or 2nd year of theirs as opposed to looking at guys that play the exact same position as the ones they just offered $130 million to?

<sigh>

I relent.

OKC would have never have even considered trading for Josh, Teague nor any of the draft picks we'd acquired.

The Thunder were clearly better off getting Lamb, Martin and protected draft picks.

In addition, Josh is an absolute terrible player, always has been and no team would ever consider trading any worthwhile assets for him.

[Rip2137]

I love the sarcasm even though we now know they were LITERALLY better off. Your trade would have left them with a out for the season Jenkins and a high pick. That y have Steve Adams and Jeremy Lamb and more. Forget talking about it in the past sense...presently its clearly a better deal.

[Jamaaliver]

I love the sarcasm even though we now know they were LITERALLY better off. Your trade would have left them with a out for the season Jenkins and a high pick. That y have Steve Adams and Jeremy Lamb and more. Forget talking about it in the past sense...presently its clearly a better deal.

I respectfully disagree. I seriously think Teague, Westbrrok, Durant, Smoove is one of the best lineups in the league. I believe they would've made it all the way back to the Finals...even with Westbrook out.

Jenkins would have been a big time weapon for them. (His injury didn't occur until a year later in Summer League. Silly to assume it would have happened no matter what.)

I honestly think they would have been deep enough to go head to head with Miami.

I do not believe that Kevin Martin or Jeremy lamb is much to write home about.

I LITERALLY believe that. I also think that everyone in OKC would accept having won an NBA title and drafting Lucas Nogueria over just having Steven Adams.

But, again, to prevent the thread from making a very ugly turn (as it is very close to doing based on the participants)....I relent.

[azuresou1]

They already made the Finals with Harden. That they traded him despite that should ring a huge bell that economics were a driving factor for OKC. I don't know that your proposed deal would have even made them better on court, given how Josh does appear to be a legitimate team cancer.

[Jamaaliver]

They already made the Finals with Harden. That they traded him despite that should ring a huge bell that economics were a driving factor for OKC. I don't know that your proposed deal would have even made them better on court, given how Josh does appear to be a legitimate team cancer.

I agree with you. Clearly they made a move of necessity once they realized they could not afford to keep Harden. The trade they executed immediately made them a worse team. (Clearly K-Mart and Lamb were not yet up to the skill level or production vacated by Harden.) I proposed a trade that immediately made OKC (in my opinion) deeper and more versatile as they'd be exchanging a single 16 ppg scorer for two experienced vets who'd just combined for more than 30 ppg. I believe these two players (whether starting or coming off the bench) would have given OKC enough of an improvement for that season to make a run at another NBA title.

But, again, I relent. If it will prevent the inevitable arguing, insults and condescension that are undoubtedly coming, I submit.



I'm sure OKC fans are more than satisfied with Jeremy Lamb, Steven Adams and the other young players they received.

...given how Josh does appear to be a legitimate team cancer.

It warms my heart to see you've come around on this issue, after the exhaustive debates we've had over the years.

[azuresou1]

Never said he wasn't a cancer... just that he wasn't a bigger cancer than ISO Joe or Marvelous