Bellator General Discussion and Info

[Jasen777]

I swear I remember reading something in the past to the effect of ppv price doesn't really matter, just costing anything in general is a barrier for people. What is the difference in buyers from $45 to $65? I have no idea. IDK if it'd be huge though.

It seems like whether or not sport bars buy in would be a big deal. I really doubt 10% of Spike watchers are going to put money down for a Bellator PPV, when being "free" (on a channel people already get) is Bellator's biggest selling point for most. I would be interesting in how many PPV's buys are actual in home ones, and not bars.

[skflives]

I think you are right that if they plan on doing a PPV, they should keep it cheap, and hope to break even. I just don't think 150K is remotely reasonable.

Invicta charges like $10 for their cards and only a handful of hardcore fans actually pay it. They are not making money off of it, simply using it as a loss leader and a way of advertising their product. Also, Invicta has been raided twice now and sold off an entire division to the UFC. I'd argue they are not doing all that well.

Invicta's first three shows were free and the fourth was made free because of technical glitches surrounding the ability to purchase the pay per view. They've only had 2 other shows. As for raids on their talent. They weren't raided by Titan FC or Shark Fights. They were raided by the UFC. That isn't proof that they are incapable of surviving its just evidence that the UFC has a bigger budget for just one of its male divisions than Invicta has a budget. If its evidence of anything its evidence that they are going to stick around because the UFC is going to use them as a female feeder league.

As for Bellator not being able to get 150k. If you don't think they are capable of that then fine. But admit that its just speculation on your part. Personally, I have no doubt that if properly promoted in the way I proposed a rematch of a fight that generated a peak viewership of 1.4 million people is more than capable of pulling 150k in buyers.

[Cammo101]

Invicta's first three shows were free and the fourth was made free because of technical glitches surrounding the ability to purchase the pay per view. They've only had 2 other shows. As for raids on their talent. They weren't raided by Titan FC or Shark Fights. They were raided by the UFC. That isn't proof that they are incapable of surviving its just evidence that the UFC has a bigger budget for just one of its male divisions than Invicta has a budget. If its evidence of anything its evidence that they are going to stick around because the UFC is going to use them as a female feeder league.

As for Bellator not being able to get 150k. If you don't think they are capable of that then fine. But admit that its just speculation on your part. Personally, I have no doubt that if properly promoted in the way I proposed a rematch of a fight that generated a peak viewership of 1.4 million people is more than capable of pulling 150k in buyers.

Invicta willingly sold off an entire division of under contract fighters to the UFC. It is not like they got cherry picked. I like Invicta a lot, but that is not something a health, growing MMA company does.

I think you are overestimating how likely the casual fan is to buy a PPV headlined by guys that struggle to get a ton of viewers on free TV. PPV is an entirely different animal to free TV on Spike.

[skflives]

Invicta willingly sold off an entire division of under contract fighters to the UFC. It is not like they got cherry picked. I like Invicta a lot, but that is not something a health, growing MMA company does.

Of course because in the entire history of business no business has ever sold an asset unless they were threatened with bankruptcy.

I think you are overestimating how likely the casual fan is to buy a PPV headlined by guys that struggle to get a ton of viewers on free TV. PPV is an entirely different animal to free TV on Spike.

I think you can't understand that its possible for a non-UFC mixed marital arts organization to find success. Many have tried and failed. That's beyond question. But failure is not predetermined. Failure comes from mistakes. Running PPVs does not ensure failure. Improperly planned and executed PPVs ensures failures. Until Bellator tries it we can't know for sure. I'm not saying I'm optimistic that they won't fail but with the a less expensive roster and lower priced pay per view they have a chance if they execute correctly.

[cowboyronnie]

Once again, to be a success a PPV doesn't need to have 10 million buys. It just needs to have enough buys to justify the cost.

Just look at the math. A peak of 1.4 million people watched Eddie Alvarez vs. Michael Chandler #2 on Spike with an average viewership of 1.1 million. If Bellator can convert just 10% of those people to PPV buyers for Alvarez/Chandler 3 that would mean between 110,000 and 140,000 ppv buyers. If we're talking only $30 bucks for the ppv we're talking between $3.3 and $4.2 million in revenue before sponsorships deals and arena ticket sales are counted. There are costs associated with running ppvs but Bellator's should be a little less than the UFC considering Viacom is a majority stakeholder. Viacom owns Spike and several other networks which means Bellator won't have to pay to run commercials spots promoting the PPV. The UFC has to pay for all their commercial time. As long as Bellator can keep the budget for fighters down to around a million dollars, a feasible goal considering how much less they pay their fighters than the UFC, their ppv should post a profit. At the end of the day that is what matters. That is what determines the success of the PPV. Not every PPV needs to have Mayweather or De La Hoya type numbers to make money.

The delusion to think you have in any way the needed background or algorithms or knowledge of logistics to crunch numbers regarding this is staggering.

[cowboyronnie]

That's a load of crap. 10% is not a very generous number its a reasonably low expectation.

Based on what?

Based upon logic.

A deduction based on WHAT? What are the terms of this logic? That there is a 10:1 ratio is logical...how??

You need market data not logic. And you have none of the former.

[skflives]

You talk about algorhythm's ratios, market data as if you were discussing something relevent but you're not. Me and Cammo are debating very general numbers. I don't need any of those algorithms and other stuff until we start talking specifics.

Chandler versus Alvarez 2 as an event averaged 1.1 million viewers and peaked at 1.4 million. It was their highest rated event ever. That's a fact. If Bellator were to convert just 10 percent of that audience into buyers for an Alvarez vs. Chandler 3 pay per view it would amount to somewhere between 110,000 to 140,000. That is a mathematical truth. I never guaranteed Bellator would hit those numbers. I was arguing that those kind of numbers are what they should be aiming for and that with proper development/promotion of that pay per view its an attainable number.

[REDDzone]

Was the second Alvarez/Chandler fight counterprogrammed by the ufc? Because even if they counter program an fs2 level card, if it were free, would people really pay to watch bellator? I kind of doubt it tbh. Would BWW, local bars buy the ppv? I'd be surprised. I think they would show the ufc event. And ufc will certainly counterprogram.

[CPT]

You talk about algorhythm's ratios, market data as if you were discussing something relevent but you're not. Me and Cammo are debating very general numbers. I don't need any of those algorithms and other stuff until we start talking specifics.

Chandler versus Alvarez 2 as an event averaged 1.1 million viewers and peaked at 1.4 million. It was their highest rated event ever. That's a fact. If Bellator were to convert just 10 percent of that audience into buyers for an Alvarez vs. Chandler 3 pay per view it would amount to somewhere between 110,000 to 140,000. That is a mathematical truth. I never guaranteed Bellator would hit those numbers. I was arguing that those kind of numbers are what they should be aiming for and that with proper development/promotion of that pay per view its an attainable number.

You did however imply (may have even stated it outright) that if Bellator were able to draw 10% of the viewers from Alvarez/Chandler II, they would turn a profit.

You have no way of knowing what kind of number they would need to do in order to turn a profit. That's what CBR was getting at, I believe.

The counterprogramming part is interesting though. I looked it up and Alvarez/Chandler II ran unopposed. Which means the UFC didn't bother counterprogramming what was supposed to be Bellator's first PPV. Maybe they wouldn't bother this time either?

[REDDzone]

I really think they would. Dana seems to really hate bellator. Probably beause Bjorn doesn't back down as much as say Scott Coker did.

[skflives]

You did however imply (may have even stated it outright) that if Bellator were able to draw 10% of the viewers from Alvarez/Chandler II, they would turn a profit.

You have no way of knowing what kind of number they would need to do in order to turn a profit. That's what CBR was getting at, I believe.

No I did not explicitly say that would turn a profit. I said they should turn a profit under the right circumstances. I mentioned a few times that the single most important factor is the payroll of the fighters on the card. If the PPV revenue is between 3 and 4 million dollars before its split up between Bellator and the PPV company it is imperative that they keep the payroll as far under one million dollars as possible. With their current roster its a reasonable goal for them to reach so long as they choose not to put expensive has beens like Rampage Jackson and Tito Ortiz on the card.

[REDDzone]

Never in my entire career have I felt so disrespected and disappointed. @BellatorMMA announces their tournament brackets and in all of them they only have the champion, on the Featherweight one they have @PatCurranMMA as well. I don’t have anything against Curran himself, what I don’t like is the clear way he’s being favored. I have all the desire in the world to fight and beat him again, not letting it to the judges this time. The issue is not this one. It’s how the entire division is overlooked because of him. What is fair is fair, the only ones who can fight for Bellator’s Featherweight belt are me and Frodo, if Frodo can’t, then it’s me. But the disrespect now goes beyond just the Featherweight division. Why is @kongo4real not there? Why is @MikeChandlerMMA not there? @PhenomLima and @RickHawnMMA will define the champion, I get that. But why is Curran worth of being on the image and the other challengers aren’t? And why do you have it like the tournament winner will fight the winner of @DanielStraus vs Curran? There is a line and it’s being ignored. And what about your champion? Daniel Straus deserves respect. I miss the time when Bellator’s “title shots are earned, not given” were true. Also I miss the time when champions were respected. I want to be respected when I am champion and I think Daniel Straus should get respect for what he achieved. How can I be motivated to fight if I know the people I fight for and I have defended all these years want me to lose? How would you feel if you were me?

- Patricio Pitbull

[Bernman]

Bellator is back tonight.

LHW and FW tourneys include the main fights of interest.

I like Rampage and Zayats at LHW.

Nunes, Richman, Yamauchi, and Cleve at FW.

Can't wait for the show and thrilled that weekly free quality MMA is back.

[Shaazzam]

Saw somewhere that they are rolling out new gloves.

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[Cammo101]

Diego Nunes got robbed and the laughably staged Rampage/King Mo WWE style shove-fest probably set MMA back 5 years.

[kdawg32086]

I'm actually excited for King Mo vs. Rampage, but I fear they're gonna end up in TNA again promoting it.

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[Bernman]

Diego Nunes got robbed and the laughably staged Rampage/King Mo WWE style shove-fest probably set MMA back 5 years.

As always Cammo's post-event comments were brought to you by Corn Nuts: "Corn to the Core".

[Cammo101]

Diego Nunes got robbed and the laughably staged Rampage/King Mo WWE style shove-fest probably set MMA back 5 years.

As always Cammo's post-event comments were brought to you by Corn Nuts: "Corn to the Core".

Even you, the biggest Bellator cheerleader on Earth, had to cringe at that TNA worthy display of fake.

[Bernman]

Even you, the biggest Bellator cheerleader on Earth, had to cringe at that TNA worthy display of fake.

It's your skewed perspective that would lead to that perception/projection. You are on the far right of the UFC-UFC competitor continuum. You are like a 9.5-10. I'm like a 3 on the UFC competitor side. Far from the biggest Bellator cheerleader on Earth when I criticize them a lot and most of my posts about UFC-related matters are neutral or positive.

Whereas, you seem to have a very strong aversion to make just about any comment about Bellator that isn't completely negative or tempered with a negative. This is a great example:

Douglas Lima looked great tonight. Is it just me or is the talent level way down in this season's tournaments? There are like 2 decent guys in each and the rest feel like filler.

Why can't you just stick with Douglas Lima looked great in a single post. It's like that is too complimentary about something Bellator-related for your comfort, so you have to work in a criticism to balance it out that time.

Then the next post you're whining about the tongue in cheek reference to Joe Warren being the BMOP, which you got clowned by other people for not just laughing off.

Plus you make posts like the one you just did which are only negative and extreme hyperbole. I laughed at (not with) the fake anger by Rampage, but it set MMA back 5 years? Chael has done it for many years, and Kos before him. Are you saying that set MMA back? Rampage's schtick set MMA back to the time it was already in. You can't think it's a big joke and indictment of one organization but then not the other. I personally don't care much across the board because I come for the fighting. I just fast forward to the fight, and will the next time. Rampage-Mo will be a good fight, as will Chael-Wand, so I'm looking forward of them independent of any salesmanship.

Your only other comment on the card was about Nunes, who got screwed, but then again so did Richman most people thought. But that didn't somehow make Bellator look better relative to the UFC, unlike the Nunes' decision did, so it's not worth mentioning I guess.

My only agendas are being a fight fan and hoping for a viable competitor to emerge, regardless of who is on top or 2nd, for the sake of the fighter. If you don't have a skewed perspective yourself, that would be clear.

You're the one cheerleading for an organization relative to another (did it against Strikeforce notoriously too), defending some crazy behavior by the UFC, and usually looking at situations from the perspective of what's good for the UFC rather than the fighter. Then you play dumb afterward, like you don't get what people are talking about. I wouldn't say anything if there was more balance there. But since there's not, it's hard to ignore.

[Shaazzam]

Ffs my DVR didn't record this card. God dammit

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