On Bryan Colangelo, rebuilding, and tanking.

[Cutter]

When the league starts investigating teams for deliberately trying to lose, and taking 1st round picks as punishment for breaking the rules, then we are making progress.

And Kerrsed, it's laughable to say that Silver is denying tanking exists because he doesn't want it to get out. If you know about, and half the kids on realgm know about, then it's already out.

I read the OP's article twice. I expected Colangelo to say he told team doctors to fake injuries on Andrea Bargnani and hold him out for the season so the Craptors could lose. But instead, he said he wanted the team to grow by playing and developing young players, "and with that comes losing" (according to BC). How is that tanking? It is completely with the rules of the CBA. Being a bad GM is completely within the rules.

[RunDogGun]

When the league starts investigating teams for deliberately trying to lose, and taking 1st round picks as punishment for breaking the rules, then we are making progress.

And Kerrsed, it's laughable to say that Silver is denying tanking exists because he doesn't want it to get out. If you know about, and half the kids on realgm know about, then it's already out.

I read the OP's article twice. I expected Colangelo to say he told team doctors to fake injuries on Andrea Bargnani and hold him out for the season so the Craptors could lose. But instead, he said he wanted the team to grow by playing and developing young players, "and with that comes losing" (according to BC). How is that tanking? It is completely with the rules of the CBA. Being a bad GM is completely within the rules.

It isn't tanking, according to many of us and the LEAGUE in which we are even discussing it. Once everyone accepts the definition according to the league, then the easier it will be for those "dense" people what we are really talking about.

[Sunsdeuce]

This is getting so funny.

This is basically the non believers mindset. The police are the tanking non believers in this story.

So if a criminal comes to a police department and says "Im the one that stole millions from the bank and I'm here to turn myself in,"
The police: "Well that doesn't necessary explain that you robbed the bank. Thanks for coming in though. Your free to go."
The robber: "But I did and I have witnesses and they can vouch that I did rob the bank."
The police: "No, sir, you did not rob the bank! You would have to show us the money."
The robber: "It's right here, see!"
The police: "No, someone could have gave you the money as a gift."
The robber: "I robbed the bank, I tell you!"
The police: "No you didn't. Please go."
The robber: "Look, I even have the video tape surveillance."
The police: "Sorry, but you could have superimposed yourself."
The robber: "For the last time, I'm a criminal and I robbed a bank."
The police aka non believers: "Sorry but you didn't rob the bank. Your free to go!"
The robber: "How about this, you guys physically watch me rob a bank?"
The police: "Nope sorry, the bank could be a fake bank."
The robber: "What the hell do I have to do to make these guys believe me?"

I ask all of you who don't believe in tanking do not go into the law enforcement field.

[Revived]

Dude why the HELL would the commissioner admit that tanking exists even if he knows there is??

He's the commissioner of the league, admitting that there's tanking going on would cost him his entire reputation for the rest of his tenture.

Look at the freaking teams around you. Seriously. Go on NBA.com and look at the standings. Then look at the roster. The Lakers, 76ers, Celtics are all perfect examples of tanking.

[RunDogGun]

It isn't funny, it's sad. The commish of the league clearly provides the definition of "tanking" as losing games on purpose. And the non believers don't want to believe what Silver says. So again, have fun making up any analogy you want. Commish trumps you every time, when it comes to the NBA.

Start a new league if you don't like it.

[Revived]

LMAO!

After all the people that said that tanking doesnt exist and telling us to find one instance where someone admitted to tanking, Here it is, plain as day. A GM admits to it. Straight up calls it tanking. Explains how he tried. Yet now people are saying to read what the damn commissioner of the league said about tanking, IE that it doesnt exist.

Of course Silver is going to say it doesnt exist! Do you think he wants that sort of thing to get out??? Hell No! Even more so, he said there was no evidence of tanking, but that was BEFORE a NBA GM came out and flat out admitted to it!

Its as clear as day! Tanking happens! And if you still dont believe it does, well, then you are as dense as Shaq's manhood.

Damn it, I should have just copied and pasted this post. This sums it up perfectly.

[RunDogGun]

Dude why the HELL would the commissioner admit that tanking exists even if he knows there is??

He's the commissioner of the league, admitting that there's tanking going on would cost him his entire reputation for the rest of his tenture.

Look at the freaking teams around you. Seriously. Go on NBA.com and look at the standings. Then look at the roster. The Lakers, 76ers, Celtics are all perfect examples of tanking.

Because he says tanking is losing games on purpose, hence the reason he says that there is no evidence that players and coaches have lost a game on purpose. I have no idea why this is so hard to understand.

[Revived]

This is getting so funny.

This is basically the non believers mindset. The police are the tanking non believers in this story.

So if a criminal comes to a police department and says "Im the one that stole millions from the bank and I'm here to turn myself in,"
The police: "Well that doesn't necessary explain that you robbed the bank. Thanks for coming in though. Your free to go."
The robber: "But I did and I have witnesses and they can vouch that I did rob the bank."
The police: "No, sir, you did not rob the bank! You would have to show us the money."
The robber: "It's right here, see!"
The police: "No, someone could have gave you the money as a gift."
The robber: "I robbed the bank, I tell you!"
The police: "No you didn't. Please go."
The robber: "Look, I even have the video tape surveillance."
The police: "Sorry, but you could have superimposed yourself."
The robber: "For the last time, I'm a criminal and I robbed a bank."
The police aka non believers: "Sorry but you didn't rob the bank. Your free to go!"
The robber: "How about this, you guys physically watch me rob a bank?"
The police: "Nope sorry, the bank could be a fake bank."
The robber: "What the hell do I have to do to make these guys believe me?"

I ask all of you who don't believe in tanking do not go into the law enforcement field.

That's good, I posted a similar scenario in the other thread:

Lol so a guy actually admits that he tanked and you don't believe him? lol. He didn't have to tell the coach to lose, he constructed the team to lose.

Your like the husband who wouldn't believe that his wife is cheating on him unless he actually sees another man's d*ick going into her va**na. Dirty texts? Nope. Coming home late? Nope. Fighting a lot? Nope. Friends and family tell you that they caught her cheating? Still nope.

All this time you wanted "proof" that tanking exists and a GM came out and said that he did it himself. Now your just trying to straw up BS to not be proven wrong. Your accusing a GM of lying when he freaking has absolutely no motive and nothing to gain from lying. But whatever keep believing whatever that makes you sleep better at night

PS see I can do the to you. But I don't do it redundantly and in every post so it actually works

[Revived]

Dude why the HELL would the commissioner admit that tanking exists even if he knows there is??

He's the commissioner of the league, admitting that there's tanking going on would cost him his entire reputation for the rest of his tenture.

Look at the freaking teams around you. Seriously. Go on NBA.com and look at the standings. Then look at the roster. The Lakers, 76ers, Celtics are all perfect examples of tanking.

Because he says tanking is losing games on purpose, hence the reason he says that there is no evidence that players and coaches have lost a game on purpose. I have no idea why this is so hard to understand.

Ok, fine lets forget tanking for a minute then.

Do you admit that GMs intentionally construct rosters which are supposed to suck so that they can get a better draft pick?

[Cutter]

This is getting so funny.

This is basically the non believers mindset. The police are the tanking non believers in this story.

So if a criminal comes to a police department and says "Im the one that stole millions from the bank and I'm here to turn myself in,"
The police: "Well that doesn't necessary explain that you robbed the bank. Thanks for coming in though. Your free to go."
The robber: "But I did and I have witnesses and they can vouch that I did rob the bank."
The police: "No, sir, you did not rob the bank! You would have to show us the money."
The robber: "It's right here, see!"
The police: "No, someone could have gave you the money as a gift."
The robber: "I robbed the bank, I tell you!"
The police: "No you didn't. Please go."
The robber: "Look, I even have the video tape surveillance."
The police: "Sorry, but you could have superimposed yourself."
The robber: "For the last time, I'm a criminal and I robbed a bank."
The police aka non believers: "Sorry but you didn't rob the bank. Your free to go!"
The robber: "How about this, you guys physically watch me rob a bank?"
The police: "Nope sorry, the bank could be a fake bank."
The robber: "What the hell do I have to do to make these guys believe me?"

I ask all of you who don't believe in tanking do not go into the law enforcement field.

fail

[Sunsdeuce]

This is getting so funny.

This is basically the non believers mindset. The police are the tanking non believers in this story.

So if a criminal comes to a police department and says "Im the one that stole millions from the bank and I'm here to turn myself in,"
The police: "Well that doesn't necessary explain that you robbed the bank. Thanks for coming in though. Your free to go."
The robber: "But I did and I have witnesses and they can vouch that I did rob the bank."
The police: "No, sir, you did not rob the bank! You would have to show us the money."
The robber: "It's right here, see!"
The police: "No, someone could have gave you the money as a gift."
The robber: "I robbed the bank, I tell you!"
The police: "No you didn't. Please go."
The robber: "Look, I even have the video tape surveillance."
The police: "Sorry, but you could have superimposed yourself."
The robber: "For the last time, I'm a criminal and I robbed a bank."
The police aka non believers: "Sorry but you didn't rob the bank. Your free to go!"
The robber: "How about this, you guys physically watch me rob a bank?"
The police: "Nope sorry, the bank could be a fake bank."
The robber: "What the hell do I have to do to make these guys believe me?"

I ask all of you who don't believe in tanking do not go into the law enforcement field.

That's good, I posted a similar scenario in the other thread:

Lol so a guy actually admits that he tanked and you don't believe him? lol. He didn't have to tell the coach to lose, he constructed the team to lose.

Your like the husband who wouldn't believe that his wife is cheating on him unless he actually sees another man's d*ick going into her va**na. Dirty texts? Nope. Coming home late? Nope. Fighting a lot? Nope. Friends and family tell you that they caught her cheating? Still nope.

All this time you wanted "proof" that tanking exists and a GM came out and said that he did it himself. Now your just trying to straw up BS to not be proven wrong. Your accusing a GM of lying when he freaking has absolutely no motive and nothing to gain from lying. But whatever keep believing whatever that makes you sleep better at night

PS see I can do the to you. But I don't do it redundantly and in every post so it actually works

It is what it is. You know, some people are just lost and won't find their way home because they refuse to use the signs. Thankfully there are people like you and millions of others who think outside of the box.

I'm done writing about this topic. I'm just gonna kick back now and enjoy the show.

[RunDogGun]

Dude why the HELL would the commissioner admit that tanking exists even if he knows there is??

He's the commissioner of the league, admitting that there's tanking going on would cost him his entire reputation for the rest of his tenture.

Look at the freaking teams around you. Seriously. Go on NBA.com and look at the standings. Then look at the roster. The Lakers, 76ers, Celtics are all perfect examples of tanking.

Because he says tanking is losing games on purpose, hence the reason he says that there is no evidence that players and coaches have lost a game on purpose. I have no idea why this is so hard to understand.

Ok, fine lets forget tanking for a minute then.

Do you admit that GMs intentionally construct rosters which are supposed to suck so that they can get a better draft pick?

That's tough to answer. What one may think is a bad move, might be a good move further down the line. When Gasol, was traded to LA for Kwame, Jarvis, and a mid second rounder, one would say they were purposely trying to make their team bad. Now that that second round pick is the other Gasol, and it freed them up cash wise, was it a bad move?

Yes, when teams rebuild, and go young, there is always a chance that losses will be an outcome.

Again, that is a risk, and often because your coaches and players almost always give their best, it is almost impossible for a GM to build to lose. And why would they want to? If they have some young potential, the coaches are going to play them. And the GM wants them to get experience. In the end, all fans, teams, coaches, and players want chips. Creating a losing culture, will never get you there.

Sometimes you know a guy will leave, or you won't resign him, so you make moves that seem bad for you at the time, and they turn out well. For example, Scola for Green and Plumlee, looked like a win for Indy this season! but even this season it was a win for us.

[rsavaj]

How is that different from Philadelphia is doing? Philly traded their vets for young guys and assets. These young guys aren't very good, and they're losing a lot, but they've set a solid foundation to build on with MCW, Noel, Tobias, Harkless, and a boatload of picks. Is that tanking, or is that rebuilding? Is it disgraceful, or is it a way to construct your team?

Uh? The Orlando 76ers?

Getting my horrible teams mixed up

[rsavaj]

So the working hypothesis is that Colangelo used the wrong word?

[carey]

So the working hypothesis is that Colangelo used the wrong word?

Nah, the working hypothesis is he did what he could to tank, but players and coaches never will. The GM can only do so much. Players are going to play, coaches are going to coach the players out there to win.

[RunDogGun]

So the working hypothesis is that Colangelo used the wrong word?

Nah, the working hypothesis is he did what he could to tank, but players and coaches never will. The GM can only do so much. Players are going to play, coaches are going to coach the players out there to win.

But what did he do really? He didn't make Bosh leave, nor did he trade him for nothing. He did do a sign and trade to get something out of him. Did BC fake injuries to Bargs?

Throughout this whole debate, if you can call it that, no one has listed what BC did, that would suggest he did his best to set up Toronto to fail.

[Sunsdeuce]

[RunDogGun]

[Revived]

Because he says tanking is losing games on purpose, hence the reason he says that there is no evidence that players and coaches have lost a game on purpose. I have no idea why this is so hard to understand.

Ok, fine lets forget tanking for a minute then.

Do you admit that GMs intentionally construct rosters which are supposed to suck so that they can get a better draft pick?

That's tough to answer. What one may think is a bad move, might be a good move further down the line. When Gasol, was traded to LA for Kwame, Jarvis, and a mid second rounder, one would say they were purposely trying to make their team bad. Now that that second round pick is the other Gasol, and it freed them up cash wise, was it a bad move?

Yes, when teams rebuild, and go young, there is always a chance that losses will be an outcome.

Again, that is a risk, and often because your coaches and players almost always give their best, it is almost impossible for a GM to build to lose. And why would they want to? If they have some young potential, the coaches are going to play them. And the GM wants them to get experience. In the end, all fans, teams, coaches, and players want chips. Creating a losing culture, will never get you there.

Sometimes you know a guy will leave, or you won't resign him, so you make moves that seem bad for you at the time, and they turn out well. For example, Scola for Green and Plumlee, looked like a win for Indy this season! but even this season it was a win for us.

They were purposely trying to make the team bad when they traded Pau and they did do it. They landed the top 3 pick in the draft right after that which is what they wanted. Of course drafting Thabeet with it is a whole another story.

As for Marc Gasol, I doubt anyone, including Memphis thought that he would turn into the player he is today. Marc was garbage even in Memphis and didn't start to look good until his sophomore season and Memphis didn't really become good until they got Z-Bo. They didn't envision trading for Z-Bo and Marc turning into a good player and the team actually becoming good that fast. Hell, even trading for Z-Bo was a signing Beasley type risk. Dude was an inefficient, cancerous player who has 0 athleticism and can't play defense to save his life. Who the hell thought he would turn into an All Star with the freaking Grizzlies.

If they have some young potential, the coaches are going to play them. And the GM wants them to get experience.

This is true but they do this because its a win-win situation for them. If all the players suck and fail, then hey we get a good draft pick and get highly coveted player in the draft. If one or more of the players actually blossom when given time, then hey we found ourselves a gem.

But even then, players who put up numbers while sucking doesn't make them good. I'm not saying you said that but you talked about playing players with potential..you can play a player with potential and he can put up good numbers and if the team constantly sucks, that doesn't say that the player is good or anything.

And GMs want chips and they all know that the best way to get a chip is to draft your superstar and keep him as the foundation of your franchise. And to get a superstar, more often than not, you gotta get a high draft pick. Just look at the contenders now. Indiana and Houston are the only exceptions.

[Ring_Wanted]

Because he says tanking is losing games on purpose, hence the reason he says that there is no evidence that players and coaches have lost a game on purpose. I have no idea why this is so hard to understand.

Ok, fine lets forget tanking for a minute then.

Do you admit that GMs intentionally construct rosters which are supposed to suck so that they can get a better draft pick?

That's tough to answer.

I think the answer is a resounding yes. GMs realize their roster can't compete and do moves to gain flexibility and future assets. It's been going on forever, and only recently it's been labeled as a negative thing, which is kind of hypocritical in my opinion, since the system not only allows it, but to some extent it even 'forces' you to go that way. 'Force' in the sense that you know you are going nowhere and it makes no sense to preserve an statu quo that can't be discernibly improved, at least with relative ease due to the rules in place.

What coaches and above all players do, it's another story. It's possible that they 'play it safe' and miss games if there is some nagging injury, for instance, but no player ever is going to play bad on purpose. For starters, because their money in on the line. Winning and producing means money, simple as that.

The coach supposedly operates under the same principle, but I could see room for some machinations if he has the complete trust of his GM and is assured that he won't get fired over loses.

But really, designing a poor roster, or tearing it down on purpose is something any GM should be able to do without being called out for it. It looks really ugly, but it's a respectable path for your franchise and in my opinion there is nothing dishonest in implementing such strategy considering the nature of the NBA.