Hawk and a Phoenix: Locked in Mortal Combat

[parson]

Heck yeah he's looked tentative. And I think that is the result of a quick hook. Being barred from playing...at all...whenever a young guy makes a mistake will cause you to lose confidence, play tentatively and always be looking over your shoulder. I'm VERY disappointed with the way Bud has handled pretty much every young player on the team no named Mike Scott.

I think you're right about the quick hook; however, I don't remember it being so quick until after the Cousins affair.

Jenkins, Cunningham, Dennis, Nunnally, Pittman. It's clear Budenholzer is playing to win...but we are 1-11 in our last dozen games. Dennis has not earned the right to start. But we're in the part of the season where we absolutely need to see what he can do in expanded minutes.

Even though it would take minutes away from Teague - away from developing him or his trade value?
Even though it would take minutes away from Mack - away from developing him or his trade value?

How can any coach ruin deserving players' careers in favor of an undeserving rookie? I'm sorry, I'm sure you believe that Schröder is deserving due to his potential. I believe Teague and Mack are deserving due to their production.

Maybe Mack...could be good - 2 or 4 times an allstar kind of good.

Yes. Consider he's playing pretty mistake-free. That's incredibly important for a PG. Then, squint your eyes and imagine him shooting for a higher percentage - in other words, growing as a player. He could very well be - not just a starter but - a good starter. I'm not predicting anything but, right now, he's closer to reaching his potential than Schröder.

As I did with Teague, I'm talking about Mack's ceiling, not my expectation. I remain a Schröder fan. I still believe that either he or Teague will be our long-term PG. But Mack has earned his minutes, while Schröder has not.

[Rip2137]

Dennis was the back up point. He lost his minutes to a 23 year old Mack who is simply better than him right now.

If you get off the agenda you have for a second, you have to know that pulling a young player who is playing well so you can see if a young player who is not playing well can maybe get better damages your reputation with your team. Look at Brian Shaw out in Denver for proof of that. This team doesn't respect him because they are blatantly tanking and they are wasting a year of their careers for a team they know is actively trying to lose.

But you have this agenda you just refuse to let go of. We had 5 young players under contract this year. Cunningham sucked. There is no argument otherwise. He played alot of minutes and sucked over 2 years. Jenkins was injured. For some reason season ending back surgery still hasn't gotten you off the "Coach Bud didn't develop him" train. Mike Scott has certainly gotten better as has Shelvin Mack(Who is 2 years younger than Dexter Pittman who you added to your list by the way but still refuse to add Shelvin). Dennis Schroeder is the only one with talent that hasn't gotten better throughout the year....and he isn't playing COMPLETELY because he was outplayed by another young player.

But until you get over this "But he isn't a first rounder" thing that has you saying one of the better backup points in the league has been "painful to watch" (I know you didn't say it but you did quote and agree with something CLEARLY not true) and one of the worse players getting significant minutes in the D league was somehow done a disservice by not getting minutes on a real NBA team...I guess you will just keep being disappointed.

[Jamaaliver]

Dennis was the back up point. He lost his minutes to a 23 year old Mack who is simply better than him right now.

If you get off the agenda you have for a second

But you have this agenda you just refuse to let go of.

I like Mike Scott. I think he will be a player in this league for years to come.
I like Paul Millsap. He deserved his All Star Selection, and probably deserved a bigger payday last summer.
I liked Muscala coming out of college, I like him as a big. I think he has a future on our team...perhaps even as a starter in a few years.

All 2nd rounders.

My concern is that whenn we invest money, resources into a draft pick, we commit ourselves to giving the player every opportunity to succeed. Years ago, I was disappointed by our handling of Pape Sy, Keith Benson, David Hansen, Cenk Aykol. We spent picks on these guys, and never saw any return.

We are terrible. Awful. I'd have loved to see Nunnally get a spot start. Just to see what he could do with the starters. I'd have loved to see Pittman get more than 3 minutes of PT just to see what he can do. Starting Cartier Martin does us no long term benefit, and when we lose it does us no short term benefit, either. There's no reason to run Brand into the ground on consecutive days, 4 games in 5 days.

As far as Dennis, we invested time, money, resources, opportunity costs into a young, underdeveloped player. In doing so, we committed ourselves to giving him every opportunity on the court to fail or succeed.

Playing Mack and Teague for all the minutes right now, has no benefit as we lose 11 of 12 games. This is the perfect opportunity to normalize minutes for Muscala and Dennis. Last summer we viewed them as potential building blocks of the future. 8 months later we suddenly are talking about casting one of these guys away. That's bad asset management.

RIP, why is it so personal to you? Why is it an 'agenda' to simply have a different opinion?
Azure, ATLBOY have expressed similar sentiment regarding Dennis' lack of playing time. Do they have an agenda also?

Can't I simply make observations of my favorite team? This season has pretty much been a complete failure. A waste. If DS was still overseas, it'd be okay. But we have to make a commitment to him as soon as December. I'd like to see if he's worth the investment. Practice is not always the ideal place to evaluate talent. Especially of a PG as his stats are dependent on other players. Vets don't go all out in practice. All players know the plays, etc.

Again, if they're on the roster, and we're not competing for ANYTHING, what's it hurt just to give them consistent PT as part of their growth process. If, after the year, we realize the player won't work out...we move on.

But seriously...agenda? You often speak in definitives and if anyone disagrees you seem to take it personally. 'It's an assault on logic that someone could draw an opinion different from mine'. As always, time will tell. I go on record with predictions, observations, concerns. If I'm right, awesome. If I'm wrong, I own up to it. Am I not allowed to have an opinion?

But it's not the end of the world if a few of the hardcore Hawks fans want to see our young players get more opportunities in what is turning out to be one fo the worst seasons in recent Hawks history.

Seriously, dude. There are like 8 people who post here, it's kind of a waste to argue ALL THE TIME just because we have alternate views. I love the Hawks. You love the Hawks. We both want them to be great.

That's my agenda.

[Rip2137]

Why I say its an agenda?

A: You continue to say "Coach Bud has not handled young players well except for Mike Scott" then break out your "list" as proof. You choose to ignore Shelvin Mack, because...well...um...he...has a dumb haircut? You continue to add a guy that has been injured the entire season in Jenkins so it makes your list longer. Now you are even adding Pittman who is 25 years old and Nunnally who you bemoaned even being here because we should have given time to Jared Cunningham.

Your "agenda" in this case is that you want to prove Coach Bud is not doing a good job at developing young players (fine opinion) but you are cooking the books so to say make your point. You know John Jenkins can't be an example of anything. And you know that a 23 year old point guard is a young player playing well. If you aren't working an agenda, then explain how a 25 year old guy in Pittman is a "young guy" we didn't give a chance, but a 23 year old point guard isn't. THAT is frustrating. I have no problem when you make a solid point. I have a problem when to make your point you make things up or ignore FACTS.

You want Dennis to play more minutes. That's fine. So do I. I want Lou Williams's minutes cut, but I know that's not going to happen. But when you have people come on the board and say something like "Shelvin Mack has been painful to watch" and you agree when YOU know full well that he is playing well, that's just ignoring the truth because it goes against what YOU want to see. That's not logical and I get annoyed when people go against truth and logic to try and make things about what they want.

I have no problem with your opinion. But if I ran around here saying "Man we are worse without Josh Smith. Clearly Paul Millsap hasn't performed as well as Josh." that would be, for lack of a better word, a lie(if in this scenario I wanted to prove that Josh is the bestest player EVAR) you should have a problem with that because it is factually not true.

Yes others have called for more minutes for Dennis. Please point to where they have called a player playing great trash and painful to watch to try and say he deserves more minutes. THATS what you are doing. Its tough to have a realistic discussion when one end of it makes things up! I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. At all. I'm wrong all the time. but the day I start making things up to make my point is the day I should be called out for it.

[Jamaaliver]

^Fair points. A few things:

You know John Jenkins can't be an example of anything.

I disagree. Early in the season Jenkins expressed frustration with his struggles. When interviewed by C-Viv, Budenholzer stated Jenkins defense was the reason he wasn't playing.

"Defensively, we feel that is where we need to be better so we are talking to John about making that his focus also and that is a real priority," Budenholzer said. "Offensively, we are doing OK. That is probably John's strength. Right now, I think he needs to focus on that defensive end and make sure he is doing everything possible at that end of the court."

http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/atlanta-hawks/2013/nov/09/hawks-vs-magic-game-thread/

A few weeks later Bud became so disenchanted with Jenkins that he sent him to D-League. This my issue.

1. If Mike Budenholzer knew JJ2 was injured, why send him across the country to the minor league. The answer: he had no idea there was a major, life altering, career-threatening injury involved. He thought Jenkins was sucking and shipped him off for another coaching staff to develop.

2. Young players need stability, but JJs PT had become sporadic and uneven.

3. Bud showed early that he would play vets like Cartier Martin over JJ2 even while Lou Williams was out.

Coach Bud's usage of JJ2 early in the season indicates he was unaware of Jenkins being injured. And, for a coach renowned for his player devlopment, I found his early handling of JJ2 disappointing. This would become a running theme for the other young players on our team.

[parson]

A few weeks later Bud became so disenchanted with Jenkins that he sent him to D-League. This my issue.

1. If Mike Budenholzer knew JJ2 was injured, why send him across the country to the minor league. The answer: he had no idea there was a major, life altering, career-threatening injury involved. He thought Jenkins was sucking and shipped him off for another coaching staff to develop.

2. Young players need stability, but JJs PT had become sporadic and uneven.

3. Bud showed early that he would play vets like Cartier Martin over JJ2 even while Lou Williams was out.

Coach Bud's usage of JJ2 early in the season indicates he was unaware of Jenkins being injured. And, for a coach renowned for his player devlopment, I found his early handling of JJ2 disappointing. This would become a running theme for the other young players on our team.

The difference in Jenkins (since I agree that Budenholzer probably didn't realize he had serious back problems) is that a shooter needs to shoot in games. For some problems, you can get your help in practice, but you need to shoot in real games. I believe I read Kyle Korver saying that, during practice, he tries to take all his shots in real-time speed, because you can get into bad habits going slow with your shots in practice (which is probably why Josh Smith is famous for being a very good 3pt shooter in practice but not in games).

Jenkins needed to go somewhere where he could put up volumes of shots, just like sending a hitter (baseball analogy) down to the minors so he can get his swing back against "live" pitching.

[Rip2137]

I think what you are forgetting is that Jenkins missed basically the entire preseason and was getting his legs back. What Bud said there can easily be interpreted as "Offensively he is back where he needs to be but defensively he isn't"

after sending him to the D-League Jenkins started getting minutes when he came back including 33 minutes against Houston, 20 minutes against the Knicks, 19 minutes here or there...but that entire time he would be out the next game with a tight back and such. He played 17 minutes against Utah before he was pretty much done for the season. So I see where we can disagree on this one, it just my opinion that after letting Jenkins get his legs back, Bud did give him minutes and put him back in the rotation, but his pain didn't allow for him to be available consistently. He ended up with 12 minutes a game in the 13 games he was able to play. I just don't think either of us can say with any certainty if all those DNP's were truly coaches decisions or if he let the staff know he just couldn't go. Either of us could be right in this case.

[Jamaaliver]

^Holy cr@p. We have an accord.

Next up on the list is Jared. I have never heard of Jared Cunningham. Only seen him play sparingly. Understand he was a throw in on a draft day deal. Agree he will probably not amount to much in the fiture. But we sent JJ2 to Bakersfield a few weeks after citing his lack of defense and recalled Jared, a player with a reputation as a solid, capable defender. offensively, he's not very good. But he can run, and jump and defend. These were the attributes that got him drafted in the 1st round. These were attributes that Korver and Lou Will both lack at this point. He played a total of 5 minutes before being sent back to the D-League. Now, if he stinks that bad...leave him be. Either trade, release or leave him in the D-League.

We needed depth, defense from the 2 guard spot. But if JC3 isn't the guy to provide it.....move on. Instead, we shipped this poor kid back and forth three more times over the next 8 weeks. Meaning he missed valuable time in the D-League. He missed valuable time with our coaches. Not a fan of the way the kid was treated.

This much is on Bud as well as Ferry. At least we finally let the kid loose, maybe he can find a spot overseas or something.

[Jamaaliver]

Dennis was the back up point. He lost his minutes to a 23 year old Mack who is simply better than him right now.

Now we come to the crux of the argument. The real linchpin.

Dennis was a 1st round pick. From overseas. We knew there'd be a learning curve. But we committed to him in the draft. We then had the option to stash him overseas for another year, thus delaying his Free-Agency by a year. For whatever reason, we brought him in this year. By doing so, we committed to developing the kid.

We also signed a PG in Free Agency. We matched Teague's offer from MIL and committed 4 years to him also.

In a vacuum, mack has earned more PT than Dennis. Hell, Dennis would probably be cut based on how he's played thus far. But the NBA is a business. We invested time, money and draft pick in Dennis. We need to know whether he's the guy of the future. We passed over proven collegiates like Tim Hardaway, Jr., Gorgui Deng, Reggie Bullock, Tony Snell, Jamaal Franklin. When we drafted him, we made an investment. It cost us a shot at some other top flight players.

We committed to Dennis. But I need to know if this was a mistake or not. I can't emphasize enough two major beliefs for me:

1. Young basketball players don't improve by not playing.
2. We have to know whether to commit to the kid, trade him or even walk away altogether.

And we can't do this without playing him.

[Jamaaliver]

The situation with Dennis right now is by far the worst case scenario for a young player like him.

He could have been stashed overseaso for a year.
He could have come and been stashed in the D-League for the year.
He could have come and played consistent minutes all year long under Bud's close supervision. (My ideal situation.)
But coming here, thus beginning the clock on his rookie contract while not playing....I think there is no benefit to anyone.

The same thing applies to Muscala and Bebe when they get here. It's to our benefit to give them consistent pT because they are an investment. They won't be gifted starting spots, nothing like that. But it benefits us and them to give them consistent PT early to assess what they are, and further their devleopment.

[Jamaaliver]

Regarding Pittman, Nunnally, et al.

I never heard of the guys.
Never seen them play.

They were both here filling roles in a time of need, but limited burn. Pittman, especially, was here when we had 0 centers and two PFs available. But we limited him to 3 minutes total.
In the midst of a losing streak, this is mindnumbingly unbelievable to me. Put the guys in, see what they can do. We're 1-11 in the last few weeks. What could it hurt?

Regarding Shelvin Mack. I have heard of him. I have seen him play. And to paraphrase, I'm not sold on him.
He's been okay, but will likely not be here next season. His old college coach is in Boston and could bring him in. But I've seen nothing to make me think we benefit long term by playing him over Dennis. He's unspectacular but solid. He'll make an adequate backup PG somewhere.

[Rip2137]

^Holy cr@p. We have an accord.

Next up on the list is Jared. I have never heard of Jared Cunningham. Only seen him play sparingly. Understand he was a throw in on a draft day deal. Agree he will probably not amount to much in the fiture. But we sent JJ2 to Bakersfield a few weeks after citing his lack of defense and recalled Jared, a player with a reputation as a solid, capable defender. offensively, he's not very good. But he can run, and jump and defend. These were the attributes that got him drafted in the 1st round. These were attributes that Korver and Lou Will both lack at this point. He played a total of 5 minutes before being sent back to the D-League. Now, if he stinks that bad...leave him be. Either trade, release or leave him in the D-League.

We needed depth, defense from the 2 guard spot. But if JC3 isn't the guy to provide it.....move on. Instead, we shipped this poor kid back and forth three more times over the next 8 weeks. Meaning he missed valuable time in the D-League. He missed valuable time with our coaches. Not a fan of the way the kid was treated.

This much is on Bud as well as Ferry. At least we finally let the kid loose, maybe he can find a spot overseas or something.

No, its on Cunningham more than Bud and Ferry. They have to have guys available on the main roster just in case, so yeah, he got called back. He also played ALOT of minutes in the D-League.

Get ready for this. Jared Cunningham has one of the lowest fg% IN D LEAGUE HISTORY for a guy that has played the number of games and minutes per that he has. In the HISTORY of the minor leagues of this league.

If anything, we gave him more time than he earned to get it together and prove he was a NBA caliber player. Our disagreement here stems from our views on the D-League. No player has ever been bad in the D-League yet flourished in the NBA. 0 ever. Cunningham did nothing to earn PT in the real league. He earned the right to be space filler on the bench. And that was his role.

I know you don't put much stock in DLeague stats, but you have to take notice when a guy is BAD in the minors. He is not going to contribute against better talent. Cunningham displayed no stand out talent, was a bad scorer, didn't show himself to be a great defender against lesser skilled players, and turned the ball over. He is the prototypical great athlete in college that is really a decent athlete in the NBA with no other real skills to show for it.

I know you wanted to compare him to a Gerald Green, but Green always had a jumper and the ability to score. He was just not able to tell the difference between a GOOD shot and a BAD shot. He in contrast shot 48 percent in the D-League and 45% from 3 while there. In every sport it is understood, make a name for yourself in the minors, play in the big league. Cunningham made a name for himself as being not that good a player. Its that simple. He didn't perform and he didn't deserve a shot at real minutes.

[Jamaaliver]

^This one we'll have to agree to disagree on. I don't care about half a season of D-League stats. To me it is not at all an indicator of ability. And, offensively, the dude is terrible.

He had three years of solid play in the Pac-10 (which I consider a better league than the D-League). We needed defense, he's a good defender. I consider it a wasted asset. A waste of roster space. A waste of airfare. A waste of time.

[theatlfan]

Next up on the list is Jared. I have never heard of Jared Cunningham. Only seen him play sparingly. Understand he was a throw in on a draft day deal. Agree he will probably not amount to much in the fiture. But we sent JJ2 to Bakersfield a few weeks after citing his lack of defense and recalled Jared, a player with a reputation as a solid, capable defender. offensively, he's not very good. But he can run, and jump and defend. These were the attributes that got him drafted in the 1st round. These were attributes that Korver and Lou Will both lack at this point. He played a total of 5 minutes before being sent back to the D-League. Now, if he stinks that bad...leave him be. Either trade, release or leave him in the D-League.

We needed depth, defense from the 2 guard spot. But if JC3 isn't the guy to provide it.....move on. Instead, we shipped this poor kid back and forth three more times over the next 8 weeks. Meaning he missed valuable time in the D-League. He missed valuable time with our coaches. Not a fan of the way the kid was treated.

This much is on Bud as well as Ferry. At least we finally let the kid loose, maybe he can find a spot overseas or something.

I don't want to butt in here too strongly. I had this discussion with Jamaaliver before and am interested to see where this one goes. Still, I can't leave that statement hanging...

Cunningham wasn't a throw-in on the draft day deal; he was the key to it from DAL's perspective. They wanted him off their roster so bad that they were willing to pay us to take him off their hands.

Apologies - carry on.

[Jamaaliver]

Cunningham wasn't a throw-in on the draft day deal; he was the key to it from DAL's perspective. They wanted him off their roster so bad that they were willing to pay us to take him off their hands.

Apologies - carry on.

Very fair point. But as a part of the new CBA, this happens all the time.

It literally just happened with Antawn Jamison two weeks ago.

But I have no allegiance to JC3 anymore, I was interested in him only because we needed a defensive wing and he was on the roster. Now that he's turned in that Hawks jersey....I wish him well in the future. (Hope he got his degree!)