Chicago Bulls = The Leagues Newest Treadmill Team?

[kingofthecourt67]

I wish this "all or nothing" philosophy peddled by the quants could be driven out of sports and especially the NBA. Watching the Bulls compete season after season against all odds is one of the best things about today's league and I'd rather be them than 76ers no matter how much success their shameful plunge may or might not yield.

Shameful?

Before this season, we were the epitome of a treadmill team. Aside from the year we got Turner, we were on the fringe of making/missing the playoffs for the last decade. We swung for the fences with Bynum and that crippled our team. Our team was built so he would be our #1 option. Evan Turner, Jrue Holiday, Spencer Hawes were not capable of filling that void once we realized he would never wear a 76er jersey. Unfortunately our management was smart enough to realize that being somewhat relevant requires a #1 and #2 option--and we didn't have that. So there are 3 ways to get those type of top-end players. Draft, free agency, and trade. With current trends, no superstar free agent was walking through our door. So we had to resort to number 1 and 3. We blew up our team because those guys--aside from Jrue Holiday [2 things--I'm not saying he was a #1 and #2 and that Holiday trade was lauded around the league]--were not championship level starters. So why should we overpay for glorified back-ups?

In terms of success this season, while our management made certain choices, our players still go out there and play hard. We just don't have talent. Chicago does. And they truly are a remarkable story to watch--no disagreement from me. Thibs has done an absolutely amazing job and Noah is playing out of his mind. But let's not forget, their management has made things harder for them to succeed as well [i.e. trading Deng, being generally cheap, not retaining assistant coaches]. And I know the Sixers do it because we're thinking of long-term success. I feel absolutely no shame in what we're doing. Perhaps 31 years without a championship will do that to a team's fans.

The Bulls did not tank to get where they are now. They drafted much smarter, got a head coach that's making the sum of the parts much greater than the team itself and showed grit and determination, which is respected by their fans and by players/coaches around the league.

Now if a free agent hits the market, don't you think he'd find Chicago more appealing as a franchise? Bulls traded Deng but they are still at or close to the tax apron, they are not below the league minimum pay roll, they never were.

In NBA like in real life, if you build a good culture you will attract free agents. If you don't you'll end up being caught up in a cycle of irrelevance.

Even Sam Hinkie's mentor, Morey always maintained a team that was good enough to challenge for the playoff spot, they only missed once in their rebuild. They eventually accumulated assets to build their team. I can't generally recall a team that willingly gutted their roster and succeeded as a result.

Bulls didn't tank? Chicago had 9 draft picks in the top 10 between 2000-2008. Can't miss on all of those--particularly when one of those was Derek Rose at #1. That's a lot of years of being bad. Their culture was not always there. They built it through the draft. Which is exactly what we will be doing.

We are tearing it down and starting over. How the heck are you going to build a culture to attract FAs being a perennial 8 seed? Moreover, Miami changed the FA game forever. There are so many more factors with superteams now in play that luring FAs is even harder.

Morey had McGrady and Yao to work with. Sixers had nobody even close to that.

[DaeDae]

Shameful?

Before this season, we were the epitome of a treadmill team. Aside from the year we got Turner, we were on the fringe of making/missing the playoffs for the last decade. We swung for the fences with Bynum and that crippled our team. Our team was built so he would be our #1 option. Evan Turner, Jrue Holiday, Spencer Hawes were not capable of filling that void once we realized he would never wear a 76er jersey. Unfortunately our management was smart enough to realize that being somewhat relevant requires a #1 and #2 option--and we didn't have that. So there are 3 ways to get those type of top-end players. Draft, free agency, and trade. With current trends, no superstar free agent was walking through our door. So we had to resort to number 1 and 3. We blew up our team because those guys--aside from Jrue Holiday [2 things--I'm not saying he was a #1 and #2 and that Holiday trade was lauded around the league]--were not championship level starters. So why should we overpay for glorified back-ups?

In terms of success this season, while our management made certain choices, our players still go out there and play hard. We just don't have talent. Chicago does. And they truly are a remarkable story to watch--no disagreement from me. Thibs has done an absolutely amazing job and Noah is playing out of his mind. But let's not forget, their management has made things harder for them to succeed as well [i.e. trading Deng, being generally cheap, not retaining assistant coaches]. And I know the Sixers do it because we're thinking of long-term success. I feel absolutely no shame in what we're doing. Perhaps 31 years without a championship will do that to a team's fans.

The Bulls did not tank to get where they are now. They drafted much smarter, got a head coach that's making the sum of the parts much greater than the team itself and showed grit and determination, which is respected by their fans and by players/coaches around the league.

Now if a free agent hits the market, don't you think he'd find Chicago more appealing as a franchise? Bulls traded Deng but they are still at or close to the tax apron, they are not below the league minimum pay roll, they never were.

In NBA like in real life, if you build a good culture you will attract free agents. If you don't you'll end up being caught up in a cycle of irrelevance.

Even Sam Hinkie's mentor, Morey always maintained a team that was good enough to challenge for the playoff spot, they only missed once in their rebuild. They eventually accumulated assets to build their team. I can't generally recall a team that willingly gutted their roster and succeeded as a result.

Bulls didn't tank? Chicago had 9 draft picks in the top 10 between 2000-2008. Can't miss on all of those--particularly when one of those was Derek Rose at #1. That's a lot of years of being bad. Their culture was not always there. They built it through the draft. Which is exactly what we will be doing.

We are tearing it down and starting over. How the heck are you going to build a culture to attract FAs being a perennial 8 seed? Moreover, Miami changed the FA game forever. There are so many more factors with superteams now in play that luring FAs is even harder.

Morey had McGrady and Yao to work with. Sixers had nobody even close to that.

Lets look at those Draft Picks:

Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler - Bulls were terrible. And traded Elton Brand for Chandler (in hindsight, they won that trade.......sort of).....

Jamal Crawford - BPA but not a difference Maker

Marcus Fizer - Please

Jay Williams - Probably would have gotten out of NBA hell, but he wasn't a superstar and wasn't going to be. Missed on Yao.

Lamarcus Aldridge - Should have kept him Traded for Tyrus Thomas.

Kirk Hinrich - Good player if you're already a playoff team. not a difference maker

Luol Deng. BPA, but no superstar. Good system player.

Joakim Noah - Nothing needs to be said here

Derrick Rose - Nothing Needs to be said here, aside from the fact that he wasn't #1 on everyone's boards.

Taj Gibson - This was a GREAT pick and had nothing to do with Tanking.

Jimmy Butler - See Taj Gibson

Nikola Mirotic - Jury still out.

Marcus Teague - Bleh.

Ben Gordon - BPA, but not a diference maker

Pretty much if you're not picking in the top 3, its very hard to get a Franchise altering talent, and even then, if you guess wrong (see, Milicic, Darko; Beasley, Michael, Curry, Eddy; Brown, Kwame; Fizer, Marcus; Williams, Marvin; Bargnani, Andrea; Morrison, Adam; Oden, Greg; Williams, Jay; Thabeet, Hasheem; Turner, Evan; Favors, Derrick; Williams, Derrick; Kanter, Enes; Kidd-Gilchrist, Michael; and Bennet, Anthony), your still terrible, and now saddled with a non-difference making at best, and terrible at worst, rookie.

[FreeChef]

A treadmill team is a team playing for seed 5-9 at their max potential.

The Bulls at their max potential is a 3-4 seed talent wise.

The ease at which a team can make the playoffs in the east throws off this analysis.

[coldfish]

A treadmill team is a team playing for seed 5-9 at their max potential.

The Bulls at their max potential is a 3-4 seed talent wise.

The ease at which a team can make the playoffs in the east throws off this analysis.

The fact that the bulls actually are the three seed in said east and aren't anywhere near their potential does too.

[kingofthecourt67]

The Bulls did not tank to get where they are now. They drafted much smarter, got a head coach that's making the sum of the parts much greater than the team itself and showed grit and determination, which is respected by their fans and by players/coaches around the league.

Now if a free agent hits the market, don't you think he'd find Chicago more appealing as a franchise? Bulls traded Deng but they are still at or close to the tax apron, they are not below the league minimum pay roll, they never were.

In NBA like in real life, if you build a good culture you will attract free agents. If you don't you'll end up being caught up in a cycle of irrelevance.

Even Sam Hinkie's mentor, Morey always maintained a team that was good enough to challenge for the playoff spot, they only missed once in their rebuild. They eventually accumulated assets to build their team. I can't generally recall a team that willingly gutted their roster and succeeded as a result.

Bulls didn't tank? Chicago had 9 draft picks in the top 10 between 2000-2008. Can't miss on all of those--particularly when one of those was Derek Rose at #1. That's a lot of years of being bad. Their culture was not always there. They built it through the draft. Which is exactly what we will be doing.

We are tearing it down and starting over. How the heck are you going to build a culture to attract FAs being a perennial 8 seed? Moreover, Miami changed the FA game forever. There are so many more factors with superteams now in play that luring FAs is even harder.

Morey had McGrady and Yao to work with. Sixers had nobody even close to that.

Lets look at those Draft Picks:

Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler - Bulls were terrible. And traded Elton Brand for Chandler (in hindsight, they won that trade.......sort of).....

Jamal Crawford - BPA but not a difference Maker

Marcus Fizer - Please

Jay Williams - Probably would have gotten out of NBA hell, but he wasn't a superstar and wasn't going to be. Missed on Yao.

Lamarcus Aldridge - Should have kept him Traded for Tyrus Thomas.

Kirk Hinrich - Good player if you're already a playoff team. not a difference maker

Luol Deng. BPA, but no superstar. Good system player.

Joakim Noah - Nothing needs to be said here

Derrick Rose - Nothing Needs to be said here, aside from the fact that he wasn't #1 on everyone's boards.

Taj Gibson - This was a GREAT pick and had nothing to do with Tanking.

Jimmy Butler - See Taj Gibson

Nikola Mirotic - Jury still out.

Marcus Teague - Bleh.

Ben Gordon - BPA, but not a diference maker

Pretty much if you're not picking in the top 3, its very hard to get a Franchise altering talent, and even then, if you guess wrong (see, Milicic, Darko; Beasley, Michael, Curry, Eddy; Brown, Kwame; Fizer, Marcus; Williams, Marvin; Bargnani, Andrea; Morrison, Adam; Oden, Greg; Williams, Jay; Thabeet, Hasheem; Turner, Evan; Favors, Derrick; Williams, Derrick; Kanter, Enes; Kidd-Gilchrist, Michael; and Bennet, Anthony), your still terrible, and now saddled with a non-difference making at best, and terrible at worst, rookie.

I agree, it's hard to get franchise players outside of the top 3. Hence the need to do this rebuilding at an extreme. This year appears to be an outlier in terms of that statement though with franchise players possibly up to the 5-7 range.

Edit: but let's make no mistake, the bulls would not have this winning culture were it not for the draft and being bad in the years they got high picks.

[CodyB_]

Chicago has the tools to go deep into the playoffs when Rose is back. I still think they lack an edge that makes them a favourite to win though. Once Rose comes back, with Noah's improving passing ability, I expect them to be able to get a lot of easy layups with Rose and Butler out there.

David West was on a number of mediocre teams for a number of years, when he got to the Pacers, a young developing team he instantly became a leader. The Bulls require that kind of player for on the court leadership and there are a few guys out there that might be available (via trade) this offseason.

They've become a playoff team without their MVP for consecutive seasons. Treadmill team is far from the correct term.

[excision]

I'm really sick of this championship or bust mentality people seem to have. Obviously winning is very important and whoever wins the championship should be damn proud, but at the end of the day the regular season has way more games than the playoffs, and people enjoy watching this sport because they enjoy watching athletes compete as hard as they can day in and day out. There are 30 teams in the league, some teams are going to be better than others, that's just the way it is. I would much rather be on a solid team that plays it's ass off every night than be the laughing stock of the entire league in the hopes that they draft some kid and hope he magically turns things around. Tanking to me is the worst thing and it spits on the integrity of the game and ultimately makes people frown upon your organization. Even if you are lucky enough to get a high draft pick that pans out and ends up being a superstar, if your team is that horrible odds are the best thing he'll be able to do is elevate the team to so-called 'mediocrity' before getting impatient and wanting to bolt (see cavaliers, wolves)

So yeah people really need to wise-up, live in the moment and appreciate the game for what it is instead of constantly thinking ahead to when their teams can finally get their precious championship.

[ChiCitySPORTS#1]

It's weird

The are contenders IMO if Rose is healthy, but even with rose healthy they do cost cutting moves and don't like being in the luxury tax.

You are in fn Chicago, pay whatever is needed. That's what I don't get.

No they don't. They were in the luxury tax when he signed his new contract. We only now made a move (trade Deng) to get out of the tax this year (while Rose is out) because we will likely get back in it next year when he's playing while also avoiding the repeating tax.

The stigma that the Bulls are cheap is wrong...they're just smart and realistic with their current circumstances.

2012-2013 was the first year they did so.

It actually makes sense for them to drop it this year, IF they plan on using boozer money and deng money to get a big name like Melo. If not, shoulda resigned deng. We will see what they do. Also with the new Cba getting out for a year is good long term to avoid the repeater tax.

2010-2011 and 2011-2012 they were contenders and were not in the tax. That's after losing much of that great bench from 2010-2011 that they should of paid to keep IMO

Bulls have money, and yes they are smart with money. I don't deny that. But when you are contenders sometimes you just have to eat the bill. Thunder have an excuse because okc is not a real nba city, but Chicago is one of the best nba cities easily, with the biggest arena. They could afford to do what they please.

Who says they're not going to? They likely will if the cards are dealt to them in a way that they'll contend. The only reason they were in the tax in 2012 is because thats when Rose's max contract kicked in.

[Pure_Basketball]

Is being a top 3 team in the league with Rose healthy the equivalent of being on a treadmill?

Question is invalid because with Rose, Bulls still aren't a top 3 team in the league.

[FreeChef]

I'm really sick of this championship or bust mentality people seem to have. Obviously winning is very important and whoever wins the championship should be damn proud, but at the end of the day the regular season has way more games than the playoffs, and people enjoy watching this sport because they enjoy watching athletes compete as hard as they can day in and day out. There are 30 teams in the league, some teams are going to be better than others, that's just the way it is. I would much rather be on a solid team that plays it's ass off every night than be the laughing stock of the entire league in the hopes that they draft some kid and hope he magically turns things around. Tanking to me is the worst thing and it spits on the integrity of the game and ultimately makes people frown upon your organization. Even if you are lucky enough to get a high draft pick that pans out and ends up being a superstar, if your team is that horrible odds are the best thing he'll be able to do is elevate the team to so-called 'mediocrity' before getting impatient and wanting to bolt (see cavaliers, wolves)

So yeah people really need to wise-up, live in the moment and appreciate the game for what it is instead of constantly thinking ahead to when their teams can finally get their precious championship.

very zen, indeed. i don't mean to mock you because basketball is a beautiful game and i just enjoy watching guys play and seeing coaches try to out-scheme one another.

but a wise man that goes by the name of patrick james riley once said, "There is winning ... and there is misery."

[Lolo]

So what I gather from the OP is that if you are not one of the top 4 teams in the league, you should be tanking because you have no chance at winning? Sound like a great plan

The Bulls aren't a treadmill team. They are just like 70% of the other teams in the league who aren't tanking and aren't the top 4.

[CousinOfDeath]

Is being a top 3 team in the league with Rose healthy the equivalent of being on a treadmill?

Question is invalid because with Rose, Bulls still aren't a top 3 team in the league.

They're better than everyone except the Heat and OKC.

[Kings2013]

Is being a top 3 team in the league with Rose healthy the equivalent of being on a treadmill?

Question is invalid because with Rose, Bulls still aren't a top 3 team in the league.

They're better than everyone except the Heat and OKC.

I think a lot of fans view it as the minority chance that Rose is ever as dominant as he once was. If he does come back as one of the top 4-5 pgs again, yes, look out because the Bulls have a good coach/culture/core

[Sniff-Roses]

Just wanted to say thank you to other teams fans that have respect for us. Putting a clinic on hardwork/teamwork really does pay off and it shows.

[Pure_Basketball]

Is being a top 3 team in the league with Rose healthy the equivalent of being on a treadmill?

Question is invalid because with Rose, Bulls still aren't a top 3 team in the league.

They're better than everyone except the Heat and OKC.

San Antonio and Indiana Pacers I believe are better. Bulls have no body who can create a shot for others besides Derrick.

[BKing10]

Is being a top 3 team in the league with Rose healthy the equivalent of being on a treadmill?

Question is invalid because with Rose, Bulls still aren't a top 3 team in the league.

They're better than everyone except the Heat and OKC.

lol Rose has played what? 14 games in 2 years, but yet you know exactly how good they are with him?

[Saul Goodman]

Wait till they sign Melo



Rose?Butler/Melo/Gibson/Noah

[Rerisen]

If Rose is healthy the Bulls are contenders, so no.

To me a 'treadmill team' is by definition a team with no hope of better future prospects, but also too good to get a top pick short of tanking or blowing up there team.

It's not simply a team that in any one single season is short of a title contender but not in the lottery. They have to actually be stuck in place, with few options for up or down movement.

That's not the Bulls. They have a lot of avenues to take the next step. Not just Rose coming back though that is the most obvious one. But cap space to go after a guy like Melo. A potential overseas star waiting to come over in Mirotic. Or simply a lot of draft pick assets they could combine with on hand team to make a trade.

A treadmill team is predictable what they will do the next season. The Bulls are about the total opposite of that, one of the biggest unknowns in the league going forward, mostly based on the uncertainty of Rose.

[CousinOfDeath]

Question is invalid because with Rose, Bulls still aren't a top 3 team in the league.

They're better than everyone except the Heat and OKC.

San Antonio and Indiana Pacers I believe are better. Bulls have no body who can create a shot for others besides Derrick.

Derrick Rose is a far better shot creator than Paul George so I don't see how Indiana is better. The Spurs are arguable but I think the Bulls' defensive advantage more than makes up the offensive advantage of SA.

[CousinOfDeath]

Question is invalid because with Rose, Bulls still aren't a top 3 team in the league.

They're better than everyone except the Heat and OKC.

lol Rose has played what? 14 games in 2 years, but yet you know exactly how good they are with him?

I don't know exactly but it's not like it's hard to be better than every team other than the Heat and OKC with a top 2 defense and a top 5 player.