The one where Joe didn't screw us last summer

[The Penguin]

We all know Joe royally screwed the pooch last summer, but just how badly did he? Operating with 20/20 hindsight, this is what our summer could have been:

Move 1: Draft night- do trade Minny did with Utah (#8 for #14 & #21) - draft Giannis (pick 15) & Hardaway Jr (pick 22) - almost no salary impact (KCP making 2.653 vs Giannis 1.792 & THJR 1.196)

Move 2: Amnesty CV31

Move 3: July 10th - Utah, Denver, GSW did a 3 way trade, Utah took back Biedrins, Rip Jefferson, Rush and for their trouble got 2014 & 2017 1sts from GSW and 3 2nds. Denver took in Foye from Utah at $3 mil. We could have done the exact same deal in Utah's place without requiring Denver to take back any salary. It would have wiped out cap room completely out, but as we all know, that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Move 4: Do not sign Chauncey & Datome, do not resign Bynum

Hypothetical alternate roster '13-'14:


Knight/Stuckey/Siva
THJR/Middleton/Rush
Giannis/Singler/Jefferson/Mitchell
Monroe/Jerebko
Drummond/Harrelson/Beidrins


We'd likely be AWFUL this year, but that's half the point as we'd have the potential to hit this summer looking like:

Committed salary = $17.2 mil (Drummond, Giannis, Knight, Singler, THJR, Mitchell, Siva, Harrellson, Middleton, Jerebko)
Picks = Decent shot at keeping ours with the tank, GSW pick (#20 range)

Projected cap space (not counting Monroe) ~ $40 mil

Hypothetical summer: Monroe, Stephenson, Isaiah Thomas


2014-15 lineup:

Thomas/Knight/Siva
Stephenson/THJR/Middleton
Giannis/Singler/Mitchell
Monroe/Jerebko
Drummond/Harrellson

Plus BPA at 2 1sts.



In summation, not only did Joe screw us with two albatross contracts, he robbed us of the ability to be THE BEST YOUNG TEAM IN THE LEAGUE.

[OneBadMutha]

We all know Joe royally screwed the pooch last summer, but just how badly did he? Operating with 20/20 hindsight, this is what our summer could have been:

Move 1: Draft night- do trade Minny did with Utah (#8 for #14 & #21) - draft Giannis (pick 15) & Hardaway Jr (pick 22) - almost no salary impact (KCP making 2.653 vs Giannis 1.792 & THJR 1.196)

Move 2: Amnesty CV31

Move 3: July 10th - Utah, Denver, GSW did a 3 way trade, Utah took back Biedrins, Rip Jefferson, Rush and for their trouble got 2014 & 2017 1sts from GSW and 3 2nds. Denver took in Foye from Utah at $3 mil. We could have done the exact same deal in Utah's place without requiring Denver to take back any salary. It would have wiped out cap room completely out, but as we all know, that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Move 4: Do not sign Chauncey & Datome, do not resign Bynum

Hypothetical alternate roster '13-'14:


Knight/Stuckey/Siva
THJR/Middleton/Rush
Giannis/Singler/Jefferson/Mitchell
Monroe/Jerebko
Drummond/Harrelson/Beidrins


We'd likely be AWFUL this year, but that's half the point as we'd have the potential to hit this summer looking like:

Committed salary = $17.2 mil (Drummond, Giannis, Knight, Singler, THJR, Mitchell, Siva, Harrellson, Middleton, Jerebko)
Picks = Decent shot at keeping ours with the tank, GSW pick (#20 range)

Projected cap space (not counting Monroe) ~ $40 mil

Hypothetical summer: Monroe, Stephenson, Isaiah Thomas


2014-15 lineup:

Thomas/Knight/Siva
Stephenson/THJR/Middleton
Giannis/Singler/Mitchell
Monroe/Jerebko
Drummond/Harrellson

Plus BPA at 2 1sts.



In summation, not only did Joe screw us with two albatross contracts, he robbed us of the ability to be THE BEST YOUNG TEAM IN THE LEAGUE.

Not sure why there's still this belief the Pistons would be worse with Knight over Jennings. As bad as Smith is at the 3 and as bad defensively Monroe is at the 4, Jennings is this team's biggest problem. No resistance at all defensively. He doesn't space the floor for this bigger front court. He reluctantly defers to his bigs up front...and usually on his terms (when he gets an assist out of it).

Pistons could've done everything else the same but not traded Knight/Middleton for Jennings and I'm pretty sure they'd be in the playoffs. Defense and outside shooting would be better. They'd be deferring to the bigs more too.

[ComboGuardCity]

You do realize at some points last season knight had trouble bringing the ball up the court? He also couldn't throw an entry pass. I don't like Jennings and I liked knight. However, our offense would be worse if Knight was leading the show

[Snakebites]

At this point even if you take the position that Knight's statline is entirely unimpressive this year I don't think a case can be made for Jennings over him.

Heck, I'd even argue that Knight hurt our team less LAST YEAR than Jennings has this year, even if we are taking the position that Knight hasn't improved at all this year.

And this isn't even coming from a Knight supporter. I didn't lose any sleep when he was moved. But, especially when defense has been factored in, Jennings has been an undeniable trainwreck. I find it amusing that people say he's become more pass-first this year despite the fact that he's basically taking as many shots as he was last year and is amazingly making fewer of them.

Assists may be up but he's actually a worse shooter than he's been (especially from three) and is still at comparable volume.

He's been bad offensively and frankly dreadful defensively. I'd take Knight over him easily. It took me a while to get to that mentality, but I'm here. I don't want either of them, though.

[The Penguin]

I think Zach Lowe posted it in one of his columns, but Jennings and Smith and have the two most inefficient players in the entire league.

[g5chand]

I still wonder why we let our amnesty clause go to waste. We could've used it last year rather than trade BG for a pick we need & are destined to lose this year (though no one expected us to be in lottery this year). I am sure this has been mentioned before, but it's still something I just don't understand.

[joseph mamah]

I still wonder why we let our amnesty clause go to waste. We could've used it last year rather than trade BG for a pick we need & are destined to lose this year (though no one expected us to be in lottery this year). I am sure this has been mentioned before, but it's still something I just don't understand.

gores didnt want to spend the money to amnesty, and Dumars was desperate for the cap space sooner rather than later in hopes of saving his job.

[need4detroit]

I still can't get over how we ignore our franchise player on offense. Disgusting to watch.

[OneBadMutha]

We keep talking about how Dumars screwed this franchise...and while its time for him to go, I really think Gores is the bigger problem. A lot of the moves that Dumars has made have been desperation moves and don't fit his MO. He went from having hands tied while allowing the culture to develop cancer...to then being unshackled, told to win now, and forced to use a draft pick to win now because his owner wouldn't use the amnesty clause.

I think this franchise will be F'd regardless of who the next GM is...in large part because I don't believe any good GM would come here. This owner doesn't understand this league. He's only around the franchise sporadically. It's a circus...and it's more on owner than the GM.

I believe losing a draft pick and Jennings were on Gores. Smith was the only move that seemed like something Dumars may have done anyways.

[MotownMadness]

We keep talking about how Dumars screwed this franchise...and while its time for him to go, I really think Gores is the bigger problem. A lot of the moves that Dumars has made have been desperation moves and don't fit his MO. He went from having hands tied while allowing the culture to develop cancer...to then being unshackled, told to win now, and forced to use a draft pick to win now because his owner wouldn't use the amnesty clause.

I think this franchise will be F'd regardless of who the next GM is...in large part because I don't believe any good GM would come here. This owner doesn't understand this league. He's only around the franchise sporadically. It's a circus...and it's more on owner than the GM.

I believe losing a draft pick and Jennings were on Gores. Smith was the only move that seemed like something Dumars may have done anyways.

Gores does seem pretty terrible. But even mandating the playoffs Dumars should know as a GM whats good for the team and at this point he doesnt seem to have a clue. When 90% of the fan base seem to know not to sign the players he does then theres a problem.

Plus when Gores mandated playoffs this offseason Dumars was fully loaded with assets in a terrible Eastern Conference. We had 20 mil in cap space, top 8 draft pick, another new coach with a couple good ones available and 2 very promising big men. Gores had the right idea expecting to build a much improved roster but the problem is Dumars managed to screw every one of those things once again.

[MrBigShot]

We keep talking about how Dumars screwed this franchise...and while its time for him to go, I really think Gores is the bigger problem. A lot of the moves that Dumars has made have been desperation moves and don't fit his MO. He went from having hands tied while allowing the culture to develop cancer...to then being unshackled, told to win now, and forced to use a draft pick to win now because his owner wouldn't use the amnesty clause.

I think this franchise will be F'd regardless of who the next GM is...in large part because I don't believe any good GM would come here. This owner doesn't understand this league. He's only around the franchise sporadically. It's a circus...and it's more on owner than the GM.

I believe losing a draft pick and Jennings were on Gores. Smith was the only move that seemed like something Dumars may have done anyways.

I've said this at least 5 times only to be met with "you're assuming too much". Deciding not to use the amnesty clause is absolutely on Gores. Even if he wasn't willing to use it, I would've rather just kept BG instead of losing the pick along with him. It isn't like we used the cap space very well.

[The Penguin]

I know I put up the OP as slanted against Joe, but I am on board with this being a Gores problem.

I think this is going to go one of two ways:

1) Gores is going to keep meddling in something he doesn't know anything about, treadmill us for the next half decade or more, run off Drummond and ultimately get bored and sell the team.

Or

2) Someone he trusts will get in his ear and back him off.


I agree the blame ultimately rests on him. He was the playoffs or bust guy and he's the one who has cheaped out, Joe was just doing what he thought needed to be done to keep his job.

[jakebernat]

gores is new to basketball, but not to business. you don't think he'll learn from his 80 million dollar mistakes in jennings and smith?

he's gotten tight with drummond. he knows that he's the future of the franchise. i fully expect the next GM to build the team around dre.

[MotownMadness]

I know I put up the OP as slanted against Joe, but I am on board with this being a Gores problem.

I think this is going to go one of two ways:

1) Gores is going to keep meddling in something he doesn't know anything about, treadmill us for the next half decade or more, run off Drummond and ultimately get bored and sell the team.

Or

2) Someone he trusts will get in his ear and back him off.


I agree the blame ultimately rests on him. He was the playoffs or bust guy and he's the one who has cheaped out, Joe was just doing what he thought needed to be done to keep his job.

Thats just making excuses for Dumars again. Of course a owner going into the offseason with alot of cash and a high draft pick while playing in the East is going to expect a pretty big change to his team. The Palace is empty and the money coming in is way down. I mean the team hasnt been in the playoffs in what 5 years because of Joe. So yeah build a playoff team. Thats what Dumars job is.
What do you want Gores to say " Go out and put me another losing team on the floor for the 30 people in attendance". This team needs to start winning badly but Dumars just cant build a team for **** anymore. But its always poor Joe.

[jakebernat]

I know I put up the OP as slanted against Joe, but I am on board with this being a Gores problem.

I think this is going to go one of two ways:

1) Gores is going to keep meddling in something he doesn't know anything about, treadmill us for the next half decade or more, run off Drummond and ultimately get bored and sell the team.

Or

2) Someone he trusts will get in his ear and back him off.


I agree the blame ultimately rests on him. He was the playoffs or bust guy and he's the one who has cheaped out, Joe was just doing what he thought needed to be done to keep his job.

Thats just making excuses for Dumars again. Of course a owner going into the offseason with alot of cash and a high draft pick while playing in the East is going to expect a pretty big change to his team. The Palace is empty and the money coming in is way down. I mean the team hasnt been in the playoffs in what 5 years because of Joe. So yeah build a playoff team. Thats what Dumars job is.
What do you want Gores to say " Go out and put me another losing team on the floor for the 30 people in attendance". This team needs to start winning badly but Dumars just cant build a team for **** anymore. But its always poor Joe.

agreed, but only to an extent. i don't think it's ever a good idea to give a manager an ultimatum. that was gores' main mistake imo. however, the rest of the blame falls onto joe. gores simply gave joe the freedom of an opened checkbook. like previously stated, it was joe's decision to meet with smith at midnight and bring in jennings. honestly, now that i'm thinking about it, joe may have put the ultimatum on himself by trading away our 1st rounder with gordon. he took it upon himself to turn this team around last summer and failed miserably.

[Neptune]

We all know Joe royally screwed the pooch last summer, but just how badly did he? Operating with 20/20 hindsight, this is what our summer could have been:

Move 1: Draft night- do trade Minny did with Utah (#8 for #14 & #21) - draft Giannis (pick 15) & Hardaway Jr (pick 22) - almost no salary impact (KCP making 2.653 vs Giannis 1.792 & THJR 1.196)

Move 2: Amnesty CV31

Move 3: July 10th - Utah, Denver, GSW did a 3 way trade, Utah took back Biedrins, Rip Jefferson, Rush and for their trouble got 2014 & 2017 1sts from GSW and 3 2nds. Denver took in Foye from Utah at $3 mil. We could have done the exact same deal in Utah's place without requiring Denver to take back any salary. It would have wiped out cap room completely out, but as we all know, that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Move 4: Do not sign Chauncey & Datome, do not resign Bynum

Hypothetical alternate roster '13-'14:


Knight/Stuckey/Siva
THJR/Middleton/Rush
Giannis/Singler/Jefferson/Mitchell
Monroe/Jerebko
Drummond/Harrelson/Beidrins


We'd likely be AWFUL this year, but that's half the point as we'd have the potential to hit this summer looking like:

Committed salary = $17.2 mil (Drummond, Giannis, Knight, Singler, THJR, Mitchell, Siva, Harrellson, Middleton, Jerebko)
Picks = Decent shot at keeping ours with the tank, GSW pick (#20 range)

Projected cap space (not counting Monroe) ~ $40 mil

Hypothetical summer: Monroe, Stephenson, Isaiah Thomas


2014-15 lineup:

Thomas/Knight/Siva
Stephenson/THJR/Middleton
Giannis/Singler/Mitchell
Monroe/Jerebko
Drummond/Harrellson

Plus BPA at 2 1sts.



In summation, not only did Joe screw us with two albatross contracts, he robbed us of the ability to be THE BEST YOUNG TEAM IN THE LEAGUE.

Why amnesty CV? He comes to practice, he isn't a problem to the team. The dude just sucks. Why pay him to play for another team?

Jennings is a better PG than Knight. Knight's a 2-guard if starting and he's a 1 coming off the bench. I like Knight though, I wish we would have moved Stuckey to a 3rd team and still signed Jennings. Jennings and Knight could have made something work.

[MrBigShot]

Jennings this season has NOT been better than Knight. Jennings is a better playmaker to be sure, but his defense and efficiency is absolute garbage...there are ways to deal with Knight's lack of PG skills though. Bringing in a point forward or a ball dominant wing player to take pressure off of him for example. Or using Monroe as a hub to run the offense once in a while. Monroe did average 3.5 assists a game his 2nd year when we ran the offense through him more often.

The reality is that we came out on the losing end of that deal. And before any smart aleck tries to claim that Knight/Middleton's stats are empty because they have not led to wins...take a look at the rest of the Buck's roster please.

[The Penguin]

We all know Joe royally screwed the pooch last summer, but just how badly did he? Operating with 20/20 hindsight, this is what our summer could have been:

Move 1: Draft night- do trade Minny did with Utah (#8 for #14 & #21) - draft Giannis (pick 15) & Hardaway Jr (pick 22) - almost no salary impact (KCP making 2.653 vs Giannis 1.792 & THJR 1.196)

Move 2: Amnesty CV31

Move 3: July 10th - Utah, Denver, GSW did a 3 way trade, Utah took back Biedrins, Rip Jefferson, Rush and for their trouble got 2014 & 2017 1sts from GSW and 3 2nds. Denver took in Foye from Utah at $3 mil. We could have done the exact same deal in Utah's place without requiring Denver to take back any salary. It would have wiped out cap room completely out, but as we all know, that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Move 4: Do not sign Chauncey & Datome, do not resign Bynum

Hypothetical alternate roster '13-'14:


Knight/Stuckey/Siva
THJR/Middleton/Rush
Giannis/Singler/Jefferson/Mitchell
Monroe/Jerebko
Drummond/Harrelson/Beidrins


We'd likely be AWFUL this year, but that's half the point as we'd have the potential to hit this summer looking like:

Committed salary = $17.2 mil (Drummond, Giannis, Knight, Singler, THJR, Mitchell, Siva, Harrellson, Middleton, Jerebko)
Picks = Decent shot at keeping ours with the tank, GSW pick (#20 range)

Projected cap space (not counting Monroe) ~ $40 mil

Hypothetical summer: Monroe, Stephenson, Isaiah Thomas


2014-15 lineup:

Thomas/Knight/Siva
Stephenson/THJR/Middleton
Giannis/Singler/Mitchell
Monroe/Jerebko
Drummond/Harrellson

Plus BPA at 2 1sts.



In summation, not only did Joe screw us with two albatross contracts, he robbed us of the ability to be THE BEST YOUNG TEAM IN THE LEAGUE.

Why amnesty CV? He comes to practice, he isn't a problem to the team. The dude just sucks. Why pay him to play for another team?

Jennings is a better PG than Knight. Knight's a 2-guard if starting and he's a 1 coming off the bench. I like Knight though, I wish we would have moved Stuckey to a 3rd team and still signed Jennings. Jennings and Knight could have made something work.

In my hypothetical alternate universe the CV31 amnesty is necessary to make the GSW trade work.

[The Penguin]

I know I put up the OP as slanted against Joe, but I am on board with this being a Gores problem.

I think this is going to go one of two ways:

1) Gores is going to keep meddling in something he doesn't know anything about, treadmill us for the next half decade or more, run off Drummond and ultimately get bored and sell the team.

Or

2) Someone he trusts will get in his ear and back him off.


I agree the blame ultimately rests on him. He was the playoffs or bust guy and he's the one who has cheaped out, Joe was just doing what he thought needed to be done to keep his job.

Thats just making excuses for Dumars again. Of course a owner going into the offseason with alot of cash and a high draft pick while playing in the East is going to expect a pretty big change to his team. The Palace is empty and the money coming in is way down. I mean the team hasnt been in the playoffs in what 5 years because of Joe. So yeah build a playoff team. Thats what Dumars job is.
What do you want Gores to say " Go out and put me another losing team on the floor for the 30 people in attendance". This team needs to start winning badly but Dumars just cant build a team for **** anymore. But its always poor Joe.

My point was how much better off we could be had we followed the Thunder plan and exercised some patience and built to the strengths of our young team, allowing wins to happen organically. Dumars wasn't afforded that opportunity by ownership. Now it's wrecked our cap and put a ceiling on the teams potential.

[Clarity]

Hate hindsight stuff like this, some of this isnt realistic as far as FA etc. Jennings was a roll of the dice, Smith was never needed, we needed a 3 that could shoot, thats it.

As for the draft, its really pretty simple, no one could have guessed TH Jr was gonna have this impact so you cant even bring him up. We didnt want 2 young kids, we only wanted to add 1 more. KCP wasnt a terrible pick but his game was always limited & we needed a shooter who could also create his own shot. I would have taken McCollum.

Knight
McCollum
Shooter (Chandler etc)
Monroe
Drummond

Would have won more games than this team & imagine the numbers Drummond could have put up this year with this team & more focus on his development. Tons of money for 14/15 FA with an insanely attractive young core.