ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob

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ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#1 » by MisterHibachi » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:03 pm

This is the thread for the match up of seeds 8 and 6 in the Eastern Conference of the All-Time Fantasy League.

General Discussion in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1293300
Draft was in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1294562
Playoff results in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1299878

Eastern Conference Conference Finals: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob

(8) Bruh Man
1. Kevin Garnett (03-05)
2. Scottie Pippen (94-96)
3. Reggie Miller (93-95)
4. Jason Kidd (01-03)
5. Mitch Richmond (95-97)
6. Roy Hibbert (12-14)
7. Blake Griffin (12-14)
8. Tim Hardaway (91-93)
9. Nene Hilario (09-11)
10. Tayshaun Prince (07-09)

(6) Notanoob
1. Hakeem Olajuwon (93-95)
2. Paul Pierce (08-10)
3. Dennis Rodman (90-92)
4. Chris Bosh (08-10)
5. Vince Carter (99-01)
6. Mookie Blaylock (95-97)
7. Arron Afflalo (12-14)
8. Jason Terry (05-07)
9. Ron Artest (09-11)
10. Tree Rollins (82-84)

Judges
bastillon
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penbeast0: Bruh Man
ronnymac2: Notanoob
Doctor MJ: Bruh Man
SideshowBob
Texas Chuck: Bruh Man
therealbig3: Bruh Man
whitehops: Bruh Man
Quotatious: Notanoob
john248: Notanoob
MisterHibachi: Notanoob

In each match up, GMs will offer their preliminary strategy for beating the other team and reasons for why their team is stronger. GMs will also have the opportunity to respond to the opponent's strategy. Judges will offer any comments and questions they have of the GMs and finally will cast their vote for whichever team they think is stronger simply by saying 'Team A wins this matchup' or 'Team B wins this matchup'. Whoever gets more votes moves on.


Good luck!
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#2 » by arifgokcen » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:08 pm

where are all the posts and comments for this thread.I am more interested in this matchup than the other one.

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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#3 » by Bruh Man » Sun Mar 2, 2014 12:21 pm

Minutes
Spoiler:
Hibbert(26)/Nene(14)/KG(8)
KG(28)/Griffin(10)/Pippen(8)
Pippen(28)/Prince(12)/Miller(8)
Miller(26)/Richmond(22)
Kidd(26)/Hardaway(22)

*Note these numbers aren't absolute just there to give you an example how a game might play out.


Match-ups

lets take a look at the individual positional match-ups just to put things in perspective first.

Hakeem is a clear advantage over Hibbert, but unfortunately for Noob that is his only advantage in this series.

KG does everything better than Bosh, and the defensive edge is colossal when comparing the years selected.

Prime Pippen is better than an older Paul and he will take the slower out his prime Pierce completely out of his game, we've seen how well Lebron defended him so imagine how awful Paul would play whenever Pippen is guarding him and with KG/Roy as the second line of defense. Lots of blood, sweat, and tears.

Miller in his prime vs a young Vince which includes his rookie year is another advantage as Miller is much more savvy and much more efficient.

Kidd vs Mookie is another obvious advantage in everything from leadership, skill and size.

Also when it comes to the bench my team has another big advantage. Afflalo probably shouldn’t have been drafted. Metta is well past his prime and by 2011 he was basically a liability on offense while not even being All-D worthy. Rodman is nice but redundant with Metta and then you have Rollins which then gives you 3 players that will give you practically nothing on offense. While Tim/Mitch/Tayshaun/Blake/Nene is everything you need in a bench and can be a contender in the league today compared to Rollens/Rodman/MWP/Afflalo/Terry who would give you the best chance at Embiid..


Offense

In the half court my team will have no trouble running an efficient offense. Hakeem is an exceptional defender but he will mostly be on Hibbert while KG sets a screen for miller to get an open shot, or Kidd/KG run a pick and role against Mookie/Bosh, or Pippen attacks the paint and takes flight against a wingless Pierce.

KG has had no problems abusing Bosh when he was with the Celtics so imagine what little trouble he would give to a prime Garnett. Miller will tire out who ever tries following him around court, and will have no problems getting open looks against Noob's perimeter. Kidd with his significant size and strength advantage will have no troubles orchestrating against the smaller Mookie and Pierce will have a hard time keeping up with Pippen who is bigger, stronger and much more athletic.

Transition will again be another big factor, this time due to my opponents lack of great ball handlers and playmakers. Terry bringing the ball up against Kidd spells trouble, Pierce trying to create against Pippen spells disaster. In fact my entire bench is deadly on the break especially this guy...
Spoiler:
Image
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHF0r69KNMY[/youtube]


My bench will contribute a good amount to my offense as well, with the entire bench being very efficient at what they do. If I need to spread the floor Tim/Mitch are 40% 3p shooters that can handle the ball create plays and take it to the basket. Prince is anther solid outside shooter at 38% along with exceptional D. Blake is an athletic freak who can give you a bunch of points without dominating the ball, he’s also a solid ball handler and very good passer with range close the 3 point line. Then I have Nene who won’t be taking many shots but did lead the league in FG % one of the years selected, he’s an excellent post defender who is very mobile so when Hibbert is on the bench the team will be even more deadly in transition.

Defense

My opponent will rely heavily on his starters for his offense which makes things infinitely tougher going against my gargantuas Defense. Whenever Rollins/Rodman/Metta are on the court it will just make matters worse as the already suffocating defense clamps down and makes it that much harder to breathe.

Hakeem can’t really be stopped, but he can be slowed down. Most of the time Hakeem will be played straight up with HIbbert and Nene, but it doesn’t mean he won’t see the occasional double. and one thing my team will excel greatly at is rotations. Pippen and KG alone can cover an insane amount of ground and have the length size and strength to challenge anyones shot. Some soft and hard doubles to force him to pick up his dribble, and ball denial whenever possible to take the ball out his hands as much as possible

Main goal isn’t to focus on Hakeem who will still have to work hard to get his but instead to take out his perimeter threats and that won’t be a problem with my personal. So let’s start with Pierce who I would say is his best perimeter player, first thing I’d like to point out is that his playoff efficiency took a significant hit come playoff time with the years chosen. Then add in the fact that he will have a GOAT perimeter defender on him to start so those percentages take another nose-dive. Then add in the help defense and other defenders he’ll see on him (Prince), and those percentages are going to look very ugly.

Once Pierce is made irrelevant Noob will try and give Carter a shot, Kidd/Miller/Mitch/Prince will all see time on Carter who shouldn’t be hard to force into difficult shots whenever he has the ball or is playing off it. Main thing is to just force him into jumpers but take away the 3 ball. So take away the drive with my massive front line and contest the 3 with my long athletic perimeter defenders. That would leave the mid-range which wasn’t young Carter’s strong suit.

So what’s my opponents last ditch effort?
Spoiler:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm-lVjf8y-M[/youtube]



I plan on pressing full court some and pressuring whoever has the ball since Mookie is the only great ball handler on his team. So I expect a lot of turnovers and stolen passes from my D. The lack of elite playmakers/passers against this type of D will make for a lot of iso’s from my opponent which makes things easier for my defense.


Conclusion

My team has a giant defensive edge, more shooters, better ball handlers, and much better playmakers and passers. my opponent has one too many players out of their prime, with 2011 MWP being the worst and most out of prime player in this league. A rookie vince which makes up 33% of his selected years, A slightly out of prime Pierce as well. Noob’s bench is very weak which will make fatigue a big factor for his starters if the bench doesn’t see many minutes. and once either one of Rollen/Rodman/MWP come on the floor things will get very ugly for my opponent.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#4 » by Notanoob » Mon Mar 3, 2014 9:56 pm

Sorry I haven't post my own strategy/response yet. My attention has been occupied with what's going on in Ukraine. I'll get to this eventually, hopefully somewhat soon.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#5 » by Notanoob » Thu Mar 6, 2014 7:46 am

Minutes
PG: Mookie 35/Terry 13
SG: Carter 34/Afflalo 14
SF: Pierce 28/Artest 10/Rodman 10
PF: Bosh 28/Rodman 20
C: Hakeem 42/Rollins 6

My strategy will not differ too much from what's been working so far. On offense I pound the ball inside, where despite his excellent overall defense, Bruh Man has no one really capable of stopping Hakeem. Hibbert has never faced a big in the same league as Hakeem in the post, Nene is just okay, and KG has never been known for his post defense. The rest of my team (outside of Rodman and Rollins) is composed of very capable shooters who will make Bruh Man pay for any doubles he tries to throw at him.

Hakeem's range will be a factor here, since he can drag Hibbert out of the paint and clear the lane for anyone who feels like driving. In particular, this will mean Carter, as Bruh Man foolishly has Miller, Prince and Mitch spending time on him. None of these guys are really equipped to handle rookie Carter, honestly. Miller and Mitch are not the caliber of defender needed to stop him, and Prince will not be fast enough to keep up with pre-injury Carter. He'll demolish them, plain and simple.

On defense, the plan is equally simple. Stick close to the shooters (Miller and KG) and try and force them to drive into the wall Hakeem makes around the rim. As for the others (Kidd, Blake, Nene) let them shoot those jumpers, which they are terrible at. Since Hardaway was not yet a good shooter, and Mitch blew in the playoffs, his spacing with be terrible when the bench plays, which will be a lot. I'll just clean up the boards and deny them second chances. I will not be playing Bosh at center at all this series, so with Rollins and Hakeem I'll always have an excellent paint protector and shot blocker turning people away from the rim.

Bruh Man has chosen to play Kidd very light minutes, which is odd to me, especially considering that he was used to heavy minutes. Mookie will have much less trouble guarding Hardaway, and this being the younger, TO-prone out of control version, Mookie will be forcing plenty of turnovers (Tim turned the ball over nearly 5 times a game when facing Mookie's Hawks over the years selected BTW). Tim was also an unspectacular shooter over the years selected, shooting only 34% from 3, so if he doesn't provide much better spacing, why bother playing him over Kidd?

In fact, he's playing everyone light minutes, which I think is simply wrong of him. He's got an advantage with KG over Bosh, but as opposed to pressing it, he give KG light minutes and has him trying to check Hakeem some, which he is not capable of doing. KG's floor spacing and defense, so valuable to what Bruh Man does on both sides of the floor, are completely reversed with Blake on the floor. He's got a big size advantage with Kidd, but he instead chooses to play into Mookie's strengths by giving Hardaway relatively heavy minutes. I've got pretty much no answer for Miller but he plays the inferior Richmond (awful in the playoffs, BTW, shot only 33% from 3 in the years selected, and only 30% for his playoff career) nearly as many minutes anyways. Pip is better than Prince at everything bar 3 point shooting, but as opposed to keeping Prince glued to the bench and playing Pip the minutes he can handle, he lets him see the bench plenty. Heck, he's got Miller playing SF, I'd love to see him stop Pierce. After having the long-limbed Pip and Prince on him, he'll be overjoyed getting to beat Miller's brains in. This is the playoffs, when you shorten your bench so that your best players can have the biggest impact on the game, but

When Rodman is on the floor, Bruh Man might think he's getting an advantage here, but that isn't the case. While he hurts spacing, Rodman cannot be left alone on offense, as he will dominate the glass. Heck, even being face-guarded, he'll dominate the glass and allow me to extend possessions. On the other end of the floor, he provides some of the greatest forward defense in history, allowing him to essentially take KG or Pip out of the game for periods at a time. I've got the perfect blend of Rodman selected here-he's still going to lock down either forward, but he's discovered that he can clean up the glass better than anyone in history.

Matter of fact, it seems that Bruh Man is giving me the boards anyways. He's got two piss-poor rebounders at center, but as opposed to countering this with good rebounders in KG, Pip and Kidd, he isn't playing any of them heavy minutes. With my frontcourt, I'll have a decisive rebounding advantage, even bigger than I usually would.

Overall, I've got a perfect fit of talents on offense, and a sound defense that will clean up the glass and avoid giving up easy buckets. Hakeem and Carter will dominate, while Bruh Man's best players will be seeing enough time to get in a rhythm, or will be facing a strong enough of an individual defender that they won't be able to get in rhythm anyways. My spacing will always be very good, while Bruh Man's spacing will be poor for much of the game, with Miller and Prince being his most reliable shooters in the playoffs. I'll kill him on the boards. Bruh Man has done little to press his advantages and seems to be hoping that he'll win by wearing me out as opposed to pressing his actual advantages. None of my guys are particularly fatigue prone and won't be hurt by the minutes they play, so this will fail. I've got the best player in this series, and he'll dominate. I will press my advantages in every case, and as a result I'll win this series.

Now, to address his write up directly.
Bruh Man wrote:Miller in his prime vs a young Vince which includes his rookie year is another advantage as Miller is much more savvy and much more efficient.
Yeah, I kind of disagree. A guy who peaked as a 3rd team All-NBA guard who's only exceptional skill was jumpshooting, vs. Half-man Half-amazing? Carter, even taking into account his rookie year being averaged into the other 2 years, has a sizable advantage here.

Bruh Man wrote:Kidd vs Mookie is another obvious advantage in everything from leadership, skill and size.
Mookie's clearly got Kidd in two categories: jumpshooting and having a cool name.

Bruh Man wrote:Also when it comes to the bench my team has another big advantage. Afflalo probably shouldn’t have been drafted. Metta is well past his prime and by 2011 he was basically a liability on offense while not even being All-D worthy. Rodman is nice but redundant with Metta and then you have Rollins which then gives you 3 players that will give you practically nothing on offense. While Tim/Mitch/Tayshaun/Blake/Nene is everything you need in a bench and can be a contender in the league today compared to Rollens/Rodman/MWP/Afflalo/Terry who would give you the best chance at Embiid..
Metta was past his prime by 2011, but thankfully, we're not going by single years. Just like this isn't rookie Carter, this isn't 2011 Artest. You've got to take into account his excellent year with the Rockets and first year with the Lakers as well. Additionally, Artest was a solid outside shooter over the years selected, averaging 36.5% from 3. Rodman is more than nice, he's excellent, but more on him later. I wouldn't trash Rollins too much considering that he's just as good as you're starting center, who's reputation is inflated by feasting on this era of centers, and he'd hardly have any hype if he didn't play the center-less Heat in the playoffs last year.


Bruh Man wrote:In the half court my team will have no trouble running an efficient offense. Hakeem is an exceptional defender but he will mostly be on Hibbert while KG sets a screen for miller to get an open shot, or Kidd/KG run a pick and role against Mookie/Bosh, or Pippen attacks the paint and takes flight against a wingless Pierce.
Yeah, you can run PnR's all you want too, but Kidd is going to struggle finishing over Hakeem, and he's an awful shooter. Meanwhile, you can trust Bosh to stick to KG and force him to try and drive too. Neither is going to have any easy time scoring at the rim. So long as Bosh stays close and takes away KG's jumper, he'll struggle to score. Same deal with Pippen, he's not facing your average interior defender.

Bruh Man wrote:Kidd with his significant size and strength advantage will have no troubles orchestrating against the smaller Mookie and Pierce will have a hard time keeping up with Pippen who is bigger, stronger and much more athletic.
You aren't giving Mookie enough credit. He was a tough and pesky defender. Since he doesn't have to respect Kidd's jumpshot at all, he can do everything he want to to bother his attempts to drive the ball. Mookie is a tough cookie. Pierce, inundated with the teachings of the all-knowing Thibbs, will certainly put up a fight as well.

Bruh Man wrote:Prince is anther solid outside shooter at 38% along with exceptional D.
I feel like you made a mistake here with Prince. As a Pistons fan, I remember all of his flaws well. His exceptional defense disappeared as he memorably offered no resistance to LeBron in 07, as the entire team was resting on its laurels. His offense devolved, spawning the nickname "Isolayshaun Prince", as he basically refused to pass the ball to anyone but Rip Hamilton. His outside shooting was always a joke, as he seemed to refuse to take 3's over long 2's at every occasion, to the extent that he it was a surprise when his feet were beyond the ark. His feet were always at least on the line.

Bruh Man wrote:Blake is an athletic freak who can give you a bunch of points without dominating the ball, he’s also a solid ball handler and very good passer with range close the 3 point line.
You're joking about the bold, right? I mean, I know we are supposed to talk up our own teams, but Blake is a terrible shooter. You can look it up on BBall Reference. He's hitting like 33% of his jumpshots. That would be what I call 'not good'.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#6 » by Bruh Man » Thu Mar 6, 2014 11:13 am

You are looking too hard into my minute distribution which i just copied from the last round, which i specified would vary. If I where to overanalyze minutes like you I would say 30 minutes for Rodman is way too much and Artest is also playing 10 too many but no need to overthink minutes.

To adress a few points first Miller vs Vince, on offense which is both player primary objective Miller has the advantage due to his superior shooting/efficiency and since Vince's drives to the basket will be limited expect his numbers to drop. Kidd can D up Carter very well so I can see vince struggling for stretches. On the other hand Miller isn't dependent on getting to the basket like Vince and he's much better at moving without the ball, so he will be getting more open shots as well.

Regarding rebounding I think it's obvious my team has the advantage when it comes to the starters Kidd/Pippen tip the scales basically, also HIbbert and Nene don't put up big rebounding numbers but they box out and play fundamental Defense that will help teammates grab the boards.

re Prince and Blake, Prince isn't starting and won't be relied upon much but is basically being used as a 3 and D guy who is a much better option than Metta. Blake isn't Dirk in terms of mid range but he can nock down a jumper well enough to make his opponents respect his shot, Blake will be getting a lot of points in transition anyhow just like he did in this years all star game.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#7 » by Notanoob » Thu Mar 6, 2014 4:38 pm

Bruh Man wrote:You are looking too hard into my minute distribution which i just copied from the last round, which i specified would vary. If I where to overanalyze minutes like you I would say 30 minutes for Rodman is way too much and Artest is also playing 10 too many but no need to overthink minutes.
You shouldn't have had such an unusual minutes distribution if you didn't want it analyzed. None of your starters are playing 30 minutes (at least, at their natural position). That's so highly unusual for a playoff series that it has to be looked at. Normally I wouldn't bother commenting on minutes, but the distribution you posted is so unexpected and unconventional that it had to be deliberate and talked about. Especially since it plays to my advantage.

With regards to Rodman, I can't see why you wouldn't want one of the best rebounders/defenders in history on the floor for heavy minutes. Metta simply plays more minutes than usual because Pierce will not be effective against Pip, so why not put the longer defender out there if he at least spaces the floor on the other end, which is all I need him to do.

Bruh Man wrote:To adress a few points first Miller vs Vince, on offense which is both player primary objective Miller has the advantage due to his superior shooting/efficiency and since Vince's drives to the basket will be limited expect his numbers to drop. Kidd can D up Carter very well so I can see vince struggling for stretches. On the other hand Miller isn't dependent on getting to the basket like Vince and he's much better at moving without the ball, so he will be getting more open shots as well.
I wouldn't call Vince dependent on getting to the basket; he was an excellent shooter over the years selected (39.5% from 3). The thing is, when going purely head to head, Vince is simply a better offensive player than Miller. The shooting advantage Miller has is obvious, but Vince is much better at getting to the hoop, and Miller simply isn't going to be able to stop him. Head to head I'd take Vince, that's all.

Bruh Man wrote:Regarding rebounding I think it's obvious my team has the advantage when it comes to the starters Kidd/Pippen tip the scales basically, also HIbbert and Nene don't put up big rebounding numbers but they box out and play fundamental Defense that will help teammates grab the boards.
Of course, you don't play them heavy minutes, so the point is kind of moot. Rodman will murder them on the boards regardless.

Bruh Man wrote:re Prince and Blake, Prince isn't starting and won't be relied upon much but is basically being used as a 3 and D guy who is a much better option than Metta. Blake isn't Dirk in terms of mid range but he can nock down a jumper well enough to make his opponents respect his shot, Blake will be getting a lot of points in transition anyhow just like he did in this years all star game.
I was really just venting about Prince; he's been frustrating the heck out a lot of Pistons fans. I understand that he is not seeing awfully heavy minutes, so his flaws will not be on display enough to significantly effect the outcome of this series.

But come on now, Blake is not a threat as a shooter, by reputation or statistic. He's a terrible free throw shooter, and his % on jumpshots in around 33%. That isn't enough to really make me respect him, in fact that's the kind of shot I want him taking. He's about as good a shooter as Kidd was at this point, so I'm content with him bricking long twos if you'll let them shooter 'em.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#8 » by penbeast0 » Fri Mar 7, 2014 3:08 am

Offenses are both reasonably close; very standard modern offenses with excellent spacing and more talent than any modern team could generate. Defensively, I see a clear edge for BruhMan with his versatile and ground covering forward tandem. Rebounding should favor BruhMan too, at least with his starters in, as is playmaking. I think Notanoob has an edge in intangibles but these small but clear advantages add up to a vote for Bruhman for me.

Thanks to you both, enjoy reading your writeups a lot.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#9 » by ronnymac2 » Sun Mar 9, 2014 10:36 am

Pretty good matchup here. Carter and Kidd were teammates, Olajuwon and Garnett are top-5 defensive players ever, Pippen and Rodman fought wars by each other's sides and against each other, Garnett has historically owned Bosh, and Pierce vs. Pippen is a sweet matchup. Add a few Blake Griffin dunks and some Metta World Peace and we've got ourselves a cool series to watch.

I think Bruh Man is going to have some issues no matter what his lineups are. If Hibbert is in, I don't see how his offense works efficiently. Hakeem can just stand there and dominate the paint defensively. Reggie Miller really will have the best offensive series out of anybody on Bruh Man's team. For the purposes of this series, I think Miller looks a lot better than Vince. KG and Pip will have trouble with the forward combination of Rodman/PP/Bosh taking away one aspect of their offense and Hakeem being able to help out. Garnett has owned Bosh, but Bosh has some serious backup here.

When Hibbert is out, KG is playing C. He's never been a great post defender. He also shouldn't be leaving Olajuwon, so that takes away from his help defense.

Pippen is the GOAT defensive wing, but I'm not sure his defense works the same way LBJ's works against Pierce. LBJ works against PP because he's stronger than Pierce and can take Pierce's bumps, and instead of slowing James down, it slows Pierce down. I'm not sure if Pip has that kind of mass and core strength. He's so great anyway that Pip will fair well, but it won't be like the LeBron James shutdown jobs on Pierce we've seen in past playoff series.

I actually think Bruh Man's team will do well slowing down Vince Carter. They've got the length to close out on his shots when he comes around screens or spots up. KG is really the key to all of this. He allows guys to close hard because once the offensive player determines he must aggressively attack the closeout by driving, Garnett steps up into the mid-range area and not only prevents efficient shots but also denies passing lanes. He can do that when he plays with Hibbert, because at least Hibbert can provide some resistance 1 vs. 1 against Olajuwon.

I don't necessarily mind Hardaway coming in more since he's a better shooter than Kidd.

Blaylock is a quick guard and Terry works best with screens, which he will get since Bosh and Olajuwon can set screens and then be respectable threats offensively. I think Terry and Blaylock will have good offensive series even against Jason Kidd.

Dennis Rodman needs to be considered a serious offensive threat because of his intelligence and elite offensive rebounding/activity. The fact that the opposing coach is ignoring him is worrisome. You can't be giving a Hakeem/PP-led offense more shots than they deserve. I like Worm getting big minutes in this matchup. He and MWP help against Scottie, and Rodman helps against KG/Blake, too.

In the end, I don't think Bruh Man has the offense to score efficiently in this series. Notanoob can always exploit certain matchups.

Vote: Notanoob
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#10 » by Bruh Man » Sun Mar 9, 2014 6:57 pm

^^^Couple things I'd like to point out, first KG will not be seeing anytime on Hakeem. It will be Hibbert and Nene only, thought I specified that. If KG plays C it will be with Hakeem resting.

I also find it odd that anyone would think Pippen wouldn't play much better defense on Pierce than Lebron who isn't an all time great when it comes to 1 on 1 D. Sure Lebron's stronger than Pippen but that really isn't going to make any difference whatsoever unless you think Paul is going to back down and score on Scottie.

I don't see KG struggling on offense, his game isn't focused on getting baskets at the rim and his mid-range game won't be affected by Bosh at all. Also Kidd and Pippen will set him up for a lot of easy buckets that he never got the luxury of having in Minnesota.

I'd also like to point out that this version of Metta isn't slowing down anyone on my team much, the best defense he played during those years were against big slow power forwards like Zach Randolph who weren't athletic and didn't play above the rim.

Rodman is a great player no doubt but he's surly not a "serious" offensive threat especially against this D. My opponent should be focusing on making shots instead of grabbing boards, but even still my team will probably grab the majority of the Rebounds regardless how many minutes Rodman plays. He will help on D and boards but will give his team less scoring options which is OK by me.

As far as Natanoob exploiting match-ups I think you meant Notanoob exploiting one match-up which is Hakeem vs Hibbert/Nene. :D
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#11 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Mar 9, 2014 10:40 pm

Vote: Bruh Man

Really tough one. I think Hakeem is the clear star of the series, but it's easy to overstate what that means. Call me literal minded if you like but when I think of Pierce & Carter I think of them having to really diminish their games in order to be a secondary or tertiary scoring threat. Bosh on the other hand can work in a lesser role, but a lesser role when Hakeem's on the court seems like a poor fit as well.

On the other side of the ball we've got more pedestrian scoring threats, and so the question to me is whether they can find a way to work together that's comparable to the superior talent on the other side. I won't say "better" because that implies defense isn't involved, but fundamentally: Can the team successfully attack the other side?

I think they can. They are full of very smart players, and guys used to finding a way to make things work with other talented teammates. Taking this to be a club that has gelled, I've got more faith in them working as a machine.

Getting back to the Hakeem matchup. I think it's important to note that when we think of Hakeem torching great defenses, it was because he had the time and space to work. Granted part of that is his great passing, but for example, Robinson looked so much worse than Hakeem in no small part because Houston could swarm him. With Hakeem's teammates here he obviously gets some of that same benefit, but he's going up against GOAT level perimeter defenders here who can recover very quickly, and so can help on him without leaving crazy open shots. I'd be inclined to bet that the court feels pretty cramped out there for this offense.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#12 » by arifgokcen » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:35 am

i am not a judge but i feel like i need to say this.

Both nene and hibbert are terrible defenders against hakeem.Especially hibbert is a non-factor against quality big-men let alone hakeem..I feel like bruh man center rotation is gonna get annihaleted and he will not be able to recover.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#13 » by therealbig3 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:44 am

This matchup is intriguing, because I've made it known that I don't really see a weakness with Notanoob's team, because it's really hard to attack a team with great creators, great shooting, good perimeter defenders, and a dominant two-way big man.

But you look at Bruh Man's team, and it's pretty much built as the anti-Notanoob team. He has the perfect defensive matchups. His issue is that I don't have much faith in his team's offense. None of those guys are go-to scorers, but they're all very unselfish players and excellent passers, so the offense will work, but it's something I can see being slowed down by a focused defense.

Doctor MJ makes a really good point though, Hakeem can successfully be neutralized here, because even though you have great shooters around him, Bruh Man's team has incredible perimeter defenders that can help and recover, and even the individual matchup against Hibbert I can see giving Hakeem some issues. Hibbert is just huge and strong, and can really push Hakeem off the block, and challenge a lot of his shots. I don't usually like Hibbert in matchups, but this one works in his favor imo. Hakeem just won't have the space he enjoyed during his peak, and one of the biggest criticisms you can throw at him is that he had ball-stopping/chucking tendencies, and he wasn't all that great at getting to the FT line either, so he could be forced into a pretty inefficient series. You have KG as a secondary defender, and as a roamer. You have Pippen roaming around and defending one of Pierce and Carter, and Kidd could also defend the other to be honest. Miller can be hidden on Blaylock. And in this matchup, if Bruh Man's team needs scoring, he's got some great offensive sparks off his bench, with Griffin, Hardaway, and Nene.

I like Notanoob's team a lot, but I see the matchups that Bruh Man has, I see that his offense is actually quite good, especially when you see his bench, and I see how suffocating that defense is, and I got to go with his team.

Vote: Bruh Man
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#14 » by Quotatious » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:57 am

Vote: Notanoob

This is based mainly on Hakeem's presence, and Bruh Man not having anyone who could really slow him down. If I were Notanoob, I would pound the ball to Olajuwon a ton, and let him work 1 on 1 against Hibbert/Nene. After a few of those isolations, when their feelings get hurt big time, seeing how the Dream makes them lose their mind with his elaborate post moves, double teams are likely gonna come, probably coming from Pippen and Kidd, which is about as good as you could hope for, but both Pierce and Carter are great shooters, averaging almost 40% from deep during those 3-year timespans, and both could create their own shot basically at will, which will obviously be more difficult here, with Pippen and Kidd disrupting things on the perimeter, but they'll probably have to ISO just a little, because their inside-outside game will take care of Notanoob's team. As Bruh Man noted, letting Pierce go 1 on 1 against Pippen is a REALLY bad idea, so I don't think it'll happen too often. I actually like the older, Big 3 version of Pierce, because he was more savvy and expierienced than for example 2001-03 Truth would be. Okay, Pippen takes care of Pierce, but who checks Carter? If I were Bruh Man, I'd put Kidd on Pierce, and Pippen on Carter, leaving Reggie on Mookie, who wasn't an especially big threat on offense, at least compared to Carter and Pierce. Someone with young Carter's talent and athleticism is likely gonna own Reg on a few trips, and despite the fact that Miller was a decent defender, especially when he had strong, tough defensive teams around him, like he had in Indiana for a few years, and has here now again, but trying to guard Carter in his athletic prime 1 on 1 would be too much for him.

As great as Bruh Man's team is, another thing that bothers me about it is his lack of truly reliable scoring options in a playoff setting, when the defense is more intense, and there's more physical and mental pressure on your players to perform at their best. Reggie is obviously GREAT in this regard, but he wasn't a guy who was elite in terms of creating his own looks, and obviously neither KG (especially if guarded by Rodman a lot) or Pippen are known as great scorers in the postseason. Their efficiency usually went down by a lot, and their consistency in this regard also wasn't too good. I could see how they would help each other with their presence as a group, but what could be said about Hakeem, Bosh, Pierce and Carter, who were truly great scorers on their own?
Obviously Bruh Man has the best defensive team in the entire tournament (probably slightly better than CaliBullsFan's whom he beat in the semifinals), and peak KG, Pippen and Kidd, supported by Hibbert, is an incredibly scary defensive formation, but like they say - great offense beats great defense...It's not always the case, but coincidentally, Notanoob's team is also at least solid defensively, with Hakeem and Rodman inside, supported by a relentless ballhawk like Mookie, or Afflalo, who could really make things difficult for Reggie or Mitch coming off screens, because of his ability to haunt his opponent anywhere he goes on the floor.

With Richmond, it's hard to say how good he was as a playoff performer, simply because during the three years that Bruh Man has taken, he only played 4 playoff games, in 1996. Even if we give him a benefit of the doubt, and assume that he performs up to his regular season standards (not many players do), he only plays about 20-22 MPG, and wouldn't get as many shots as he'd need to make some serious damage.

So, to sum up, I think that Notanoob has two major matchup advantages on offense - Hakeem and Carter could really wreak some havoc in ISO situations against Hibbert/Nene and Reggie, respectively. Richmond was a better defender than Miller, so Carter (or Pierce) would have some trouble against him, but the edge at center is tremendous in Notanoob's favor.

Notanoob takes this one, in 7 games, after a triple overtime game 7, with Pierce hitting a game winning 3-pointer in Pippen's face, talking trash before he takes that shot : "hey Pip, watch that!" KG says the same as he said here, the only difference being that he's now on the losing side of things. :lol:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeUjRhDl3y4[/youtube]

Just imagine that shot being a buzzer beating game winner, and imagine Pippen rather than LeBron contesting it. :lol:

Sorry, I had to. :lol:
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#15 » by therealbig3 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:07 pm

Well, I honestly think Hakeem is being a bit overrated, and Hibbert is being a bit underrated if people think Hakeem would just flat out destroy him. Hakeem has a legit quickness advantage on Hibbert, obviously, but in terms of getting post position and getting off clean looks, he's gonna have a tough time against Hibbert. Shaq forced Hakeem into a pretty inefficient scoring series in the 95 Finals, and Hibbert brings a similar physicality as Shaq. Hakeem would have to face up most of the time I feel, and I feel like that makes Hakeem easier to defend. Furthermore, you have KG, Pippen, and Kidd (holy ****) helping out and causing havoc. Like Doctor MJ pointed out, Hakeem did his best work when he had space to work with, and that trio of help defenders WILL NOT give you space, and they can still recover to the shooters fast enough to prevent wide open looks. I feel like they could force a bunch of TOs on Hakeem, especially since he had a tendency to ball stop. Nobody ever is going to stop a guy like Hakeem 1 on 1...but there are certain matchups that can give him a tough time, and it comes down to the team defense...and Bruh Man's team is as good as it gets in terms of help defense. Offensively, yes, Bruh Man doesn't have a standout go-to 1st option...or does he? Some great posts in the top 100 project showed how Reggie Miller consistently elevated his game against elite defenses, despite not being surrounded by great offensive talent at the time either. And as part of a team effort that emphasizes cutting, shooting, passing, and all-around high IQ basketball, how can you go wrong with Kidd/Miller/Pippen/Garnett?
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#16 » by Quotatious » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:54 pm

therealbig3 wrote:Well, I honestly think Hakeem is being a bit overrated, and Hibbert is being a bit underrated if people think Hakeem would just flat out destroy him. Hakeem has a legit quickness advantage on Hibbert, obviously, but in terms of getting post position and getting off clean looks, he's gonna have a tough time against Hibbert. Shaq forced Hakeem into a pretty inefficient scoring series in the 95 Finals, and Hibbert brings a similar physicality as Shaq. Hakeem would have to face up most of the time I feel, and I feel like that makes Hakeem easier to defend. Furthermore, you have KG, Pippen, and Kidd (holy ****) helping out and causing havoc. Like Doctor MJ pointed out, Hakeem did his best work when he had space to work with, and that trio of help defenders WILL NOT give you space, and they can still recover to the shooters fast enough to prevent wide open looks. I feel like they could force a bunch of TOs on Hakeem, especially since he had a tendency to ball stop.

I think the key to this conversation would be to establish some benchmarks - what would "destroy" mean, and how would it affect their entire teams? I think the center position in these all-time settings, with a truly dominant, top 10 all-time caliber player like Hakeem, is absolutely critical to the whole game.
therealbig3 wrote:Nobody ever is going to stop a guy like Hakeem 1 on 1...but there are certain matchups that can give him a tough time, and it comes down to the team defense...and Bruh Man's team is as good as it gets in terms of help defense.

Certainly true, but I think that Shaq was a much more difficult matchup for Hakeem than Hibbert would be, because Shaq could've played Olajuwon as his equal, on both ends of the court, while Roy would only really make him work on offense. Defensively, Hibbert isn't a threat for him, at all. He has some offensive moves, but he's gonna be the 5th option in Bruh Man's starting lineup, and hugely marginalized. He'd be lucky if he got 5 FGA in that game. To be honest, I think that Notanoob's backup center Tree Rollins would be enough to neutralize Hibbert, let alone Olajuwon. That difference in terms of expending energy against Shaq, and against Hibbert, is obviously huge, I'm sure you get my point.

therealbig3 wrote:Offensively, yes, Bruh Man doesn't have a standout go-to 1st option...or does he? Some great posts in the top 100 project showed how Reggie Miller consistently elevated his game against elite defenses, despite not being surrounded by great offensive talent at the time either. And as part of a team effort that emphasizes cutting, shooting, passing, and all-around high IQ basketball, how can you go wrong with Kidd/Miller/Pippen/Garnett?

Reggie is great, and he's one of the elite playoff performers of all-time (at least if you compare his regular season numbers to his playoff exploits) as I've said earlier, but in a tournament when you have the cream of the crop of talent in league's history, he's not that impressive. Yeah, I'd make him my first option here if I were Bruh Man, but he doesn't really have an edge even over Carter or Pierce. Notanoob has an elite, clear-cut leader on offense in Hakeem, and guy who can create his own shot at will as a center, which Reggie couldn't even do as a shooting guard.

The mix of two-way talents like KG, Pippen and Kidd, that you mentioned, is quite impressive, for sure, but are their matchup advantages really that significant, especially with Kidd and Reggie, who are gonna play just about 26 MPG, like Bruh Man said? Tim Hardaway was obviously a fine point guard, but Mookie is an IDEAL defender on him, and Richmond, who would be an even better replacement for Miller (he adds an extra, new dimension with his post game, and he can fight through screens just like Reg, too), but his 20 MPG aren't gonna hurt Notanoob's team too much. Carter and Pierce could both play Mitch equal, or slightly outplay him, even in his limited playing time.

Besides, one more vote for Notanoob makes it a closer decision, because Bruh Man led 3-1 before my vote, so it's now 3-2, and it'd be a shame if this matchup was the same as those matchups in the previous rounds, for example mine against Notanoob, when everyone (you too :wink: ) was talking about how close it was, but at first glance the hard facts , ie. the results indicated that it was a blowout.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#17 » by Texas Chuck » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:31 pm

Vote: Bruh Man in 7

Only "weakness" he has is that he doesnt have that one dominant scorer, but he has Reggie Miller who was a terrific go-to scorer in the PS on strong defensive oriented teams. And in this case he has much more talented guys at both ends. A team with Kidd, Pippen, and KG as primary decision makers is going to be just fine offensively and completely dominant defensively especially with the physical presence of Hibbert.

Defensively they could go 2 ways--help like crazy on Dream and use their athleticism and unbelievable basketball IQ to rarely get caught in a bad rotation. Or they could simply lock down on everyone else and dare Dream to beat them. Probably the former, but they are built for Dream's team.

Now Dream's team has a lot going for it. They have the best player at both ends and some great complementary guys around him. I just think the synergy of Bruh Man's team is incredible and that they are the better TEAM.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#18 » by whitehops » Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:54 pm

sorry I haven't checked in recently and that I won't break the matchup down with a lengthy post.

Bruh Man would win the series.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#19 » by MisterHibachi » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:22 pm

I don't have much to add. Most things have already been said.

Bruh Man's defense is nasty, but I trust Hakeem and Carter/Pierce to create enough offense to keep them even. On he other hand, I'm not sure if Bruh Man will be as successful on offense. Hakeem is a pretty good defensive anchor and Rodman is a great defender too. I'm not sure there's enough one on one creation on the perimeter for Bruh Man to take advantage.

Vote: Notanoob.
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Re: ATFL Eastern: (8) Bruh Man vs. (6) Notanoob 

Post#20 » by MisterHibachi » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:23 pm

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Bruh Man leading 5-3.
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