Discussion on the Nuggets and "Goodwill"

[Powder Blue]

I'm moving this goodwill discussion into its own thread so it doesn't get lost in draft pipe dreams.

Pickaxe wrote..

We can chill a little bit knowing we reinforced the roster. The goodwill isn't destroyed, it's just when you see last offseason's trades and don't get to see a huge piece like JaVale and see what he can do you have to be a bit concerned.

The small move of obtaining Brooks allows the team to still function as opposed to building bad habits.

The small move of obtaining Vesely shores up the overall size factor so the team will not run out of size.

Somehow someone is coming to the Nuggets this draft in just a few months, and that someone is very likely to improve the roster.

The biggest ?'s revolve around Gallo & McGee's recoveries. There is very good chemistry between the players on the team.

Could not figure out the dedication to keeping the team strong and now we can see a little light at the end of the tunnel.

For the active roster main thing is build good habits, keep improving, focus on elements of their game that will come into play next season.

Rebel wrote..

You know it is funny despite less postings on this and many other Nuggets boards, many hard core fans are still in denial.

If you guys do not think the goodwill the Nuggets had rebuilt has been seriously damaged then I do not know what to tell you. Over the last few years there were actually people talking about the Nuggets on sports radio in Denver, now you never hear about them and if you do it is to trash them. Attendance went down towards the end of the Melo years, and than was hurt after Melo was traded, finally last year they were getting somewhere once again, and than the failure in the playoffs, firing Karl, and this disaster of a season has hurt them considerably. Add to that the Broncos getting better and the Avalanche starting to become a good team again and what is already an pretty obvious drop off in attendance to the games I have been to this year. I have been to Nuggets games where there could not have been more than 4,000 people in the whole arena and can see it coming again.

You see a light at the end I see dark days ahead. I was fine with the team trying to find a new way to win, trying the superstar route has not worked out for them, now hoping they draft right and sign the right free agents, while having a rookie head coach who thinks he is the smartest guy in the room all the time, sounds an awful lot like 1990 to me, but we will only know over the next few years.

I want to address some of what you said Rebel. 3 of our top 7 players have season ending injuries, McGee played 5 games and Gallo none. No team can make the playoffs with losing 3 of 7. You can also mix in the rib injury that our best player experienced. If someone had goodwill towards the Nuggets organization why would they abandon it because of a string of injuries? If that's how this team lost its goodwill it didn't have much to start.

Speaking of goodwill, in 10 years the Nuggets exited the first round once.....in 10 years. Their goodwill has been slipping because people are tired of that crap, I know I was. For 10 years I was forced to swallow GK and his "run,run" offense only to see him fail, get out coached and not take the blame year after year after year (Minus the Billups year). Shaw is a first year coach with a F'd roster, I'm not going to toss out my goodwill because he's learning on the job with a bunch of guys that can't play D.

This year isn't last year, we lost Iggy and replaced him with Foye/JJ. We didn't have a 57 win roster to start so it's absurd to expect 57 wins. Ujiri and GK are gone, unfortunately for the former and thankfully for the latter. I can go on the fan and hear a lot of Nuggets talk, yea they are critical about the roster moves but aren't we all, plus they got tired of the ole one and done GK song and dance too.

For one year what's the big difference between getting smoked in the first round and not even making it. The Knicks are 3.5 games out of the playoffs, we could end up using our own lotto pick. I'm fine sitting this year out, adding a top 10-12 player and seeing what a healthy and hopefully re-tooled roster can do next year.

I don't think the sky is falling, at least no more than it ever was after every first round exit in years past. I'm actually optimistic because we have a coach that knows how to win at the next level....now we wait and see if he can do it.

[berserker]

I can see both points.

First, when Melo didn't want to stay in Denver, we lost credibility. Second, when we let go of the coach and GM of the year, we lost credibility. Those are very negative.

On the flip side - we are a young team who faced some injuries and are looking for an identity. We have a lot of tradeable assets, limited cap flexibility, and a roster that can compete on any given night. Let's give Shaw a chance to coach a team of his choosing, without having to replace so many parts, and with having a pretty good draft choice and see where we are.

[tstrick33]

I'm a lot more optimistic about this team than those dreadful teams we had in the 90s/early 2000s.

One difference we have is a top 5 pg, who can take over a game.

Gallo being back will give us another shooting dimension that we are desperately missing from our big men.

I still think we need to move some parts such as Faried and Chandler. Whoever we get in the drafts needs to come in and be an effective starter, immediately.

One thing I worry about is our effort. Shaw seems to have a defeated attitude and it rubs off on the players. Right now I'll give him a pass because it's been an unlucky first year, but if this continues next year, Shaw could be the next McDaniels.

[pickaxe]

My take is a mixture of my previous dislike for the offseason moves, my hope that the 57 win Karl team could actually get one legit second chance (also being a last chance), my annoyance when Afflalo was traded prior to that year and now Iggy left a hole at sg, my acceptance that there is no going back and at least we regained some size and didn't end up with a pg-less roster and totally devolve.

Then mix in the possibility that the draft will bring us new hope.

The end result is I have no choice but to be hopeful and so long as there is a direction and we do not hopelessly repeat the mistakes of the past -that we actually have some pretty damn good players that went from a nearly elite team to a bottom feeding team through mismanagement and injury.

For all those who believe any coach will instantly be better than Karl remember that Karl himself as a young coach went all the way up the mountain and still lost to Michael Jordan simply because Michael Jordan existed.

Shaw could potentially go up the same mountain and meet Kevin Durant and go down. Melo gave us a very good counter to a Durant. Karl gave us someone with experience going head to head with the greatest basketball player to ever live. Keep one or the other, don't chuck them like they are not once in a lifetime landings.

Anyway, that perfect storm doesn't exist any longer. That perfect storm is over.

So, you have what is left. Either we cheer for how good they can be, or we boo them and depress the **** out of them as players and make them want to seek out a better city that has fans with more energy.

Yeah they make millions of dollars but at the end of the day they are human and if you don't cheer for them it just ain't fun. Hell, we cheered for Melo, we cheered Karl's teams and by that virtue alone the fans got teams that had no business in the playoffs TO the playoffs. Got players who didn't give a damn to give a damn.

[Powder Blue]

I have a feeling John Elway could assist the Nuggets in making some off-season moves. Different situation I know but I don't think he would have signed off on the JJ deal.

[scottcarman]

I really don't understand why people did not like George Karl. He will be a hall of fame coach and will probably hold the number one spot for overall wins in nba history in a few years. He still wants to coach and someone will give him a chance. If the Nuggets had extended Karl then he would have forever been known as a Nugget and he would have claimed the record as a Nugget. Now we have Shaw, a guy that was turned down SEVEN times before he finally got on as a head coach. Apparrently we have to have the players for Shaws system and he is not flexible enough to coach a roster that basically won 57 games last year. Karl has had many different types of teams over the years. He has had success with a superstar (Melo and WCF), he has had success no clear stars (57 wins last year, Bucks years, making playoffs every year), and he has had to deal with personalities like JR Smith, Melo, Kenyon, Gary Payton, Shawn Kemp, who have shown to cause disruption at times because of their personalities. Shaw has a very long way to go until he will be near the coach that George Karl is.

A previous poster was correct. It was very negative that the Nuggets won a franchise record for wins, had the coach of the year, and had the gm of the year and then they left. Argue what you will about Ujiri, but he would have stayed if Kroenke was backing him 100% and was willing to pay a top notch GM in the league. The Nuggets were the third youngest team in the league even with the Dinosaur Andre Miller on the team. I still remember being a fan in the '90's and just praying that the team will make the playoffs. Yes, I would very much like to make the playoffs every year. I don't think the way to win a championship is to tank. The way to win a championship for Denver is the Houston model. Build good contracts and get value. Always stay relevant and be ready when an opportunity like James Harden comes around. Make an attractive offer. We will never know if Denver made an offer for Harden. Now that they had Harden, Dwight Howard is suddenly more interested in Houston. Denver needed to stay relevant, try to win a championship Detroit style with several 2a pieces but no superstar, and be ready if a superstar suddenly need a new home where he can be the star.

Basically the Nuggets were expressing to the entire league that if you do an awesome job, the best job in the entire league, then you will not be rewarded for it in Denver. Say what you want about Iggy, but he expressed that he was not satisfied with the culture in Denver. I believe he meant that Denver was not showing the attitude of winning and nba championship by allowing Ujiri and Karl to walk (or get fired).

[pickaxe]

I have a feeling John Elway could assist the Nuggets in making some off-season moves. Different situation I know but I don't think he would have signed off on the JJ deal.

I don't think Elway would either.

I do wonder if he would go after MWP just for a look-see.


-Ultimately-and I have been thinking about it further- I think we all expect something reasonably better than what we had in the Melo-Karl years. I suppose it's like a botched surgery if the patient doesn't come out, heal up, and perform even better. You gain a certain level of success and there is value in all of the components of that echelon of success that was reached.

A couple of bad trades can take away 10 years of progress fairly quickly.

I'm still a strong believer in remaining faithful in the team until we are through the draft and can count our chickens. At that point it becomes a team and a coach that can be fully evaluated by us (and hopefully the GM) as to what we think a successful Shaw team would be without making a bad gamble.

We have a full year of watching Shaw. We know we can still win with an up-tempo style.

The million dollar question is what has the team learned defensively? Enough? Nothing? Some?

Do we literally need a compliment of bruisers to flip the focus of the team to a slow, brutal style of making scoring points against the Nuggets very difficult.

Ultimately what I want to see is every team in the league flying in to Denver thinking, man this is going to be hell we won't get 75 shots up!

It would be a dream of mine to see a Nuggets team that could both score in an an up-tempo style to pour on the offense as needed, but could slow the opponent down to a trickle on a dime.

[pickaxe]

The new Nuggets' logo should be a big hand with an index finger waving.

We should rally around Mutombo and the accomplishment of that Denver team. That's what we really want. We want to see a capable and defensively elite Nuggets.

[Powder Blue]

I really don't understand why people did not like George Karl. He will be a hall of fame coach and will probably hold the number one spot for overall wins in nba history in a few years. He still wants to coach and someone will give him a chance.

10%...I didn't like George Karl because he coached the Nuggets well enough to get out of the first round 10% of the time. ONE time in TEN years. Explain to me why he deserved to stick around with a 10% success rate? His playoff record here was 21-38, take away 09 and it was 11-32.

I really don't understand why Nuggets fans desire to just be mediocre. Desire to lose in the first round every year. Don't tell me Karl should still be the coach because he wins a lot of regular season games, last I checked that's not what the goal is. The goal is to win in the playoffs and if 1-10 isn't a large enough sample size to prove that someone wasn't good at something I don't know what is.

Is Shaw the answer? We don't know. Karl was given 10 years to coach teams with more talent than what Shaw currently has, Shaw deserves a fair shot.

[Powder Blue]

I have a feeling John Elway could assist the Nuggets in making some off-season moves. Different situation I know but I don't think he would have signed off on the JJ deal.

I don't think Elway would either.

I do wonder if he would go after MWP just for a look-see.


-Ultimately-and I have been thinking about it further- I think we all expect something reasonably better than what we had in the Melo-Karl years. I suppose it's like a botched surgery if the patient doesn't come out, heal up, and perform even better. You gain a certain level of success and there is value in all of the components of that echelon of success that was reached.

A couple of bad trades can take away 10 years of progress fairly quickly.

I'm still a strong believer in remaining faithful in the team until we are through the draft and can count our chickens. At that point it becomes a team and a coach that can be fully evaluated by us (and hopefully the GM) as to what we think a successful Shaw team would be without making a bad gamble.

We have a full year of watching Shaw. We know we can still win with an up-tempo style.

The million dollar question is what has the team learned defensively? Enough? Nothing? Some?

Do we literally need a compliment of bruisers to flip the focus of the team to a slow, brutal style of making scoring points against the Nuggets very difficult.

Ultimately what I want to see is every team in the league flying in to Denver thinking, man this is going to be hell we won't get 75 shots up!

It would be a dream of mine to see a Nuggets team that could both score in an an up-tempo style to pour on the offense as needed, but could slow the opponent down to a trickle on a dime.

Touche pickaxe.

Is it fair to say that most Nuggets fans are also Broncos fans? Although the situations are not the same the Broncos are spending the money and making the big..yet reasonable moves to improve the roster. Josh and TC have thus far not done anything like that. At some point I think fans are going look down on Josh and TC if they continue to flounder as GM's.

[tstrick33]

There's also a reason George Karl is still unemployed, I think firing him was the right move. Shaw has been given a terrible hand, next year should be more interesting.

Right now our pick is looking in the 8-12 range which is probably where you look at Aaron Gordon or McDermott, not bad but we really need to improve that with a trade.

The Broncos are proving that big named players will come to Denver. The Nuggets have always had the excuse of having a medium size market to not attract all stars.

However, all it takes is one superstar to lure more. It's what were seeing with Manning and even though it was a trade and a failed experiment. We were still able to get AI, who I'm convinced would have committed long time, if the Melo/AI combo worked.

Unfortunately, it's probably going to have to be someone we draft to be that star to lure other stars to play in Denver.

[The Rebel]

Rebel wrote..

You know it is funny despite less postings on this and many other Nuggets boards, many hard core fans are still in denial.

If you guys do not think the goodwill the Nuggets had rebuilt has been seriously damaged then I do not know what to tell you. Over the last few years there were actually people talking about the Nuggets on sports radio in Denver, now you never hear about them and if you do it is to trash them. Attendance went down towards the end of the Melo years, and than was hurt after Melo was traded, finally last year they were getting somewhere once again, and than the failure in the playoffs, firing Karl, and this disaster of a season has hurt them considerably. Add to that the Broncos getting better and the Avalanche starting to become a good team again and what is already an pretty obvious drop off in attendance to the games I have been to this year. I have been to Nuggets games where there could not have been more than 4,000 people in the whole arena and can see it coming again.

You see a light at the end I see dark days ahead. I was fine with the team trying to find a new way to win, trying the superstar route has not worked out for them, now hoping they draft right and sign the right free agents, while having a rookie head coach who thinks he is the smartest guy in the room all the time, sounds an awful lot like 1990 to me, but we will only know over the next few years.

I want to address some of what you said Rebel. 3 of our top 7 players have season ending injuries, McGee played 5 games and Gallo none. No team can make the playoffs with losing 3 of 7. You can also mix in the rib injury that our best player experienced. If someone had goodwill towards the Nuggets organization why would they abandon it because of a string of injuries? If that's how this team lost its goodwill it didn't have much to start.

You are right the Nuggets did not have much goodwill to start with, like it or not the 13 lost years for this franchise from 1989 to 2003 destroyed almost all support this team had in the 1980s, especially with the Broncos and Avs doing so well. Hell even the Rockies made a trip to the world series, yet they get less of a pass than you are giving the Nuggets.

Sure the Nuggets have been decimated by injuries but with the attention that the Broncos get and now the Avs, people are moving on from the Nuggets, and the truth is this team has not done enough to get loyalty from a very big base. Add to it that the Nuggets even predicted a step back this year, and that the national media put them winning right about where they are even without the injuries and you have a big problem with perception right now.

One last point on this part, injuries happen, especially when you have a roster full of injury prone guys, whether any of us like it or not Gallo and Chandler especially are injury prone, having a roster with only 2 centers especially when both had been disappointments leading into the season is also a recipe for disaster.

Speaking of goodwill, in 10 years the Nuggets exited the first round once.....in 10 years. Their goodwill has been slipping because people are tired of that crap, I know I was. For 10 years I was forced to swallow GK and his "run,run" offense only to see him fail, get out coached and not take the blame year after year after year (Minus the Billups year). Shaw is a first year coach with a F'd roster, I'm not going to toss out my goodwill because he's learning on the job with a bunch of guys that can't play D.

I was fine with Karl being fired, but one of the marks of a good coach is running a system that fits the players on his roster, can you honestly say that the system Shaw has been trying to run fits with anybody on the roster?

This year isn't last year, we lost Iggy and replaced him with Foye/JJ. We didn't have a 57 win roster to start so it's absurd to expect 57 wins. Ujiri and GK are gone, unfortunately for the former and thankfully for the latter. I can go on the fan and hear a lot of Nuggets talk, yea they are critical about the roster moves but aren't we all, plus they got tired of the ole one and done GK song and dance too.

Really? On the fan Karl is beloved, and if you are listening to them you know it, especially by Clough who is one of the few that actually talk about the Nuggets.

Now when did Iggy become this great player? Did you miss last year? Did you miss the fact that he half assed it almost the entire season? As for who they replaced him with, who's fault is that? Is that not the front office and the owners fault? So why do they get a pass for not replacing a player you seem to be insinuating is so important?

For one year what's the big difference between getting smoked in the first round and not even making it. The Knicks are 3.5 games out of the playoffs, we could end up using our own lotto pick. I'm fine sitting this year out, adding a top 10-12 player and seeing what a healthy and hopefully re-tooled roster can do next year.

Sure the Knicks are 3.5 games out, what's new? They have been 3-4 games out all season, but that still puts them out, which means the worse of the Nuggets and Knicks pick is gone. but let's be honest, what makes you think that the Nuggets are going to be able to properly retool this team? Last offseason was a disaster, and last I checked the front office that built a team properly is gone, the head scouts even left last year. With what this front office did last year I am not confident at all in them being able to do anything.

Let me reiterate what they did last year, and you tell me why I should be confident.
They traded a late 1st for a 2nd round pick and cash, with that 1st pick a young center who needs developed was taken, the Nuggets got a guy who is not doing much in Europe.
They traded our starting center for a young injury prone PF and a late 2nd round pick, that young center has been our 4th big all season which would put him at 5th at best if McGee was healthy.
They decided to play hardball with the Warriors and Igoudala, allowing the Jazz to get 4 picks including 2 unprotected 1st round picks while they got Foye and a swap of future 2nd round picks.
They signed a backup PG in Robinson and then refused to trade Andre until they could only get back jan Vesely of all people.
They overpaid JJ Hickson the full MLE than sat on him and Faried, making Hickson the 4th PF they have with 3 sfs already on the roster that can and have played PF when needed.
They declined the option on Jordan Hamilton, and than traded him for a PG that they could have signed last offseason.
To top it off the ignored the fact that they only had 2 centers on the roster, and not a single true starting SG on the roster, but hey we got PFs.

I don't think the sky is falling, at least no more than it ever was after every first round exit in years past. I'm actually optimistic because we have a coach that knows how to win at the next level....now we wait and see if he can do it.

What coach knows how to win at the next level? If you are talking about Shaw, sure he knows how to win as a role player off the bench on a team with 2 superstars. he also knows how to be an assistant coach on a team that wins a couple of championships as an assistant on a team with the best player in the game and 2 dominant bigs. But what has he shown as a head coach? That resume means the guy deserves a shot, but so far he has done nothing to make me believe that he is going to be a great coach here in Denver.

So far I see a coach that for more than half the season has insisted on running an offense that does not fit his roster. I see a coach that killed the trade value of many of our young players due to not fitting the system he is insisting they run. I also see a coach that insists his players take mid range jump shots despite the fact that it is the worst shot in basketball. I know he talks about running in press conferences, but anybody who goes to practices has reported that he refuses to practice any kind of running there.

Oh and do not give me that crap that he wants a team to play defense, maybe he does, but than how do you explain Foye, hickson, and Anthony Randolph getting all the minutes they have all season? Fact is Shaw has experience playing on stacked teams, being an assistant on stacked teams, he so far appears to not have any idea what to do when he does not have a star center and wing on the roster to win the games for him.

[The Rebel]

I have a feeling John Elway could assist the Nuggets in making some off-season moves. Different situation I know but I don't think he would have signed off on the JJ deal.

I don't think Elway would either.

I do wonder if he would go after MWP just for a look-see.


-Ultimately-and I have been thinking about it further- I think we all expect something reasonably better than what we had in the Melo-Karl years. I suppose it's like a botched surgery if the patient doesn't come out, heal up, and perform even better. You gain a certain level of success and there is value in all of the components of that echelon of success that was reached.

A couple of bad trades can take away 10 years of progress fairly quickly.

I'm still a strong believer in remaining faithful in the team until we are through the draft and can count our chickens. At that point it becomes a team and a coach that can be fully evaluated by us (and hopefully the GM) as to what we think a successful Shaw team would be without making a bad gamble.

We have a full year of watching Shaw. We know we can still win with an up-tempo style.

The million dollar question is what has the team learned defensively? Enough? Nothing? Some?

Do we literally need a compliment of bruisers to flip the focus of the team to a slow, brutal style of making scoring points against the Nuggets very difficult.

Ultimately what I want to see is every team in the league flying in to Denver thinking, man this is going to be hell we won't get 75 shots up!

It would be a dream of mine to see a Nuggets team that could both score in an an up-tempo style to pour on the offense as needed, but could slow the opponent down to a trickle on a dime.

i am sorry but watching a game of 140 possessions every night sounds like a nightmare to me.

Fact is the Lakers and Celtics won many championships in the 80s, and they played at a considerably faster pace than is played now. You can win playing at a watchable pace, but you have to be able to execute in the half court, and take away the other teams strength on offense, both things that Karl struggled with.