Does anyone know Horford's status

[Rip2137]

Okay, we have a disconnect.

Al taking a beating, so you say, I am not arguing that it is happening. At all. Of course its happening.

I am saying that this injury and his getting beat up in the post have NOTHING to do with each other.

I am basing this on the entire medical history of the tens of thousands athletes in the history of sports. So withal due respect to beat writers, analyst and scouts, I am going to go with medical fact that playing Center in no way could possibly have caused this injury.

I mean, you do realize that you are arguing that Al Horford is somehow the ONLY person in the history of the sport this affects right? Using this theory, at least some undersized centers and pfs would have suffered this injury as well...yet...none.

The same amount of NBA players have missed games sneezing and damaging their sinus(Kevin Johnson and Jermaine O'Neal) as guys that have had torn pec injuries. like...seriously.

[Jamaaliver]

I am saying that this injury and his getting beat up in the post have NOTHING to do with each other.

I am basing this on the entire medical history of the tens of thousands athletes in the history of sports. So withal due respect to beat writers, analyst and scouts, I am going to go with medical fact that playing Center in no way could possibly have caused this injury.

I mean, you do realize that you are arguing that Al Horford is somehow the ONLY person in the history of the sport this affects right? Using this theory, at least some undersized centers and pfs would have suffered this injury as well...yet...none.

I understand what you are saying 100%. but the fact that AL has been playing at a high level for literally most of his life with little injury history, but has suffered the same rare injury twice in two years leads me to believe something is indeed causing it.

I doubt he's just now having issues from improper workouts, especially after the first injury which required months of rehab under supervision.

I do not believe he's a PED abuser.

The doctor indicated that he was not predisposed to such an injury.

In addition to this, AL has struggled through smaller injuries at the position for years missing little if any PT. Just last winter:

Al just said on 680 the fan that he has been injured for the past few weeks with the calf/knee issue. Guess we were right.

I simply believe that all these injuries are related to the pounding he takes guarding 250+ men every night. Something he's never had to do before the NBA.

Just like recovering from a torn pec.
Something he's never had to do before the NBA.

If new information is revealed, or a new theory is devised I will consider them as well. Until then I'll simply remember what AL said months before his injury. His body is taking a hit and he needs help.

And I'll remember the dismissive responses Hawks fans provided before he suffered his second torn pec injury in two years.

[PandaKidd]

I totally get what you are saying Jamaaliver. Im not even saying you are wrong. BUT, i have seen ZERO CONCLUSIVE evidence we can say his pectorals are caused by playing Center.

Furthermore, lets look at someone who has JUST as much "wear and tear" as him.

Joakim Noah- 6'11'' 232 LBS
Al Horford- 6'10'' 250lbs
According to ESPN STATS (height and weight)

they came out at the same time, played for the same collegiate team. Al Horford is a BIG dude. hes giving up an inch to 2 inches and MAYBE 15lbs. Theres no SHAQ in the league anymore.

out of EVERYONE who plays in the NBA, are you asking me to believe that Al Horford is becoming injured because he plays C? Cmon, im not sure even you believe that.

I think hes on PEDs or his muscles are brittle and its genetic. MOST people can correlate injures to types of play. Look at guys like Westbrook and Derrick Rose, similar injuries (Sans ACL) or even Rondo, Rubio, Lou Will, etc. Happens to guards more than big men.

Major causes of Pec Tears (Specifically the Pectoralis Major)

How does a pectoralis major muscle rupture occur?
These injuries generally occur during forceful activities. Almost half of all pectoralis major ruptures occur during weightlifting, particularly during a bench press maneuver. Other causes of a pectoralis major rupture include football, rugby, wrestling and other traumatic accidents/injuries.

It is known that steroid use can weaken the tendon, and this is thought to be a contributing factor in many pectoralis major muscle ruptures. However, these injuries can certainly occur in patients who have never used steroids.

Almost any sports medicine board ive been to cites specifically WEIGHT LIFTING AND PEDs as the major cause to tears.

[PandaKidd]

Im not saying AH is on steroids, Im merely saying its far more likely thats the cause, or poor weight lifting techniques, than it is to say that the ONLY guy to tear pectorals is being caused by him guarding slightly bigger people than him (which in actuality ARENT actually that much bigger than him).

Carlos Boozer would have titty tears on titty tears considering the guys hes had to guard.

[Jamaaliver]

Hey, I completely understand what you guys are saying and that is goes against 100+ years of basketball wisdom. And I'm not nearly smart enough to refute common medical knowledge. (I'll assume that in addition to watching hundreds of NBA games every year, RIP also is an expert in science, biology, anatomy as well.)

I'm just looking at the basic facts and drawing my own conclusion:

-Horford has had this same injury twice in two different parts of the body. Both times it happened....he was playing basketball, wrestling with one of the largest human beings on the planet.

-Both tears occurred on relatively low contact plays which leads me to believe this was not from a single blow to the muscle, but a continued stress placed on it over time.

-Al's doctor indicated there was a ton of scar tissue on the muscle itself indicating issues with the muscle prior to the final tear.

-The injury is common amongst weightlifters when they literally attempt to lift too heavy of a load. (Such as 250 pound men?)

-Al's doctor has stated (allegedly) that he is not prone to this type of injury.

I'm just connecting the dots. Until I hear allegations of PED use, or AL admits that at age 28 he has no idea what the proper weightlifting guidelines are, or until he gets a torn pec muscle mowing the lawn in the offseason, or we discover he is genetically disposed to muscle tears, or we find out Horfy is a member of a secret fight club, I will simply stick with this very simple conclusion.

Al's body is falling apart.

[Jamaaliver]

So what are you suggesting? Where are all these Centers that have been available that the Hawks have passed on?

Off the top of my head:

Kosta Koufas
Nene
Emeka Okafor
Chris Kaman
Javale McGee
Nikola Vucevic
Robin Lopez
Andrew Bynum
Brandan Wright
Dwight Howard
Omer Asik
Pau Gasol
Jason Thompson
Marcin Gortat
Tyson Chandler
Derrick Favors
Andre Blatche
Fab Melo
Festus Ezeli
Andrew Bogut
AL Jefferson
JJ Hickson
Zaza Pachulia
Byron Mullens
Spencer Hawes
Greg Stiemsma

That's 26 big men who either changed teams or at least became free agents.

[PandaKidd]

I'm just looking at the basic facts and drawing my own conclusion:

-Horford has had this same injury twice in two different parts of the body. Both times it happened....he was playing basketball, wrestling with one of the largest human beings on the planet.

I didnt see both injuries occur, there youtube video of it?

-Both tears occurred on relatively low contact plays which leads me to believe this was not from a single blow to the muscle, but a continued stress placed on it over time.

from what , we dont know conclusively all im saying

-Al's doctor indicated there was a ton of scar tissue on the muscle itself indicating issues with the muscle prior to the final tear.

Leads me to believe maybe he did heavy PED use in the beginning of his career, or recently, or he is over weight lifting. Would be curious to see what Hawks Trainers say behind closed doors

-The injury is common amongst weightlifters when they literally attempt to lift too heavy of a load. (Such as 250 pound men?)

As you suggested, he hurt it wrestling, not a blow to his chest. So, the muscle had to be damaged before the injury occurred, which means to me, hes over lifting, hes weight lifting wrong or way too much. or hes using PEDs.

I mean if hes getting hurt like this, then Basketball may not be his sport.

-Al's doctor has stated (allegedly) that he is not prone to this type of injury.

well the facts contradict that dont you think? Obviously he IS prone to it.

I'm just connecting the dots. Until I hear allegations of PED use, or AL admits that at age 28 he has no idea what the proper weightlifting guidelines are, or until he gets a torn pec muscle mowing the lawn in the offseason, or we discover he is genetically disposed to muscle tears, or we find out Horfy is a member of a secret fight club, I will simply stick with this very simple conclusion.

Al's body is falling apart.

Agree 1000000%

[Rip2137]

So what are you suggesting? Where are all these Centers that have been available that the Hawks have passed on?

Off the top of my head:

Kosta Koufas
Nene
Emeka Okafor
Chris Kaman
Javale McGee
Nikola Vucevic
Robin Lopez
Andrew Bynum
Brandan Wright
Dwight Howard
Omer Asik
Pau Gasol
Jason Thompson
Marcin Gortat
Tyson Chandler
Derrick Favors
Andre Blatche
Fab Melo
Festus Ezeli
Andrew Bogut
AL Jefferson
JJ Hickson
Zaza Pachulia
Byron Mullens
Spencer Hawes
Greg Stiemsma

That's 26 big men who either changed teams or at least became free agents.

I'm sorry but more than half of that list are worse options than what we have now. Byron Mullens, Greg Stiemsma, Festus Ezeli, Fab Melo? Seroiusly? Then explain to me how taking a flyer on a foreign Center that has never performed in the NBA different from us taking a flyer on a foreign Center than has never performed in the NBA. Then you have old guys which would kinda negate your complain about Brand. some of those guys aren't even Centers and some of those guys you are just trying to be argumentative. Javalle McGee? Are you arguing we should have paid more than 10 million a year for him? How is Zaza Pachulia a upgrade over Antic or Brand? Emeka Okafor? The guy that can't play because of his injured neck...we should have signed him instead of Antic, Brand, Muscala, Bebe, and Ayon. That is a better move to you?

And on top of that you know for a FACT that the Hawks went after Bynum and Howard, looked into trading for Hawes and Asik. Come on dude.

[Rip2137]

Hey, I completely understand what you guys are saying and that is goes against 100+ years of basketball wisdom. And I'm not nearly smart enough to refute common medical knowledge. (I'll assume that in addition to watching hundreds of NBA games every year, RIP also is an expert in science, biology, anatomy as well.)

I'm just looking at the basic facts and drawing my own conclusion:

-Horford has had this same injury twice in two different parts of the body. Both times it happened....he was playing basketball, wrestling with one of the largest human beings on the planet.

-Both tears occurred on relatively low contact plays which leads me to believe this was not from a single blow to the muscle, but a continued stress placed on it over time.

-Al's doctor indicated there was a ton of scar tissue on the muscle itself indicating issues with the muscle prior to the final tear.

-The injury is common amongst weightlifters when they literally attempt to lift too heavy of a load. (Such as 250 pound men?)

-Al's doctor has stated (allegedly) that he is not prone to this type of injury.

I'm just connecting the dots. Until I hear allegations of PED use, or AL admits that at age 28 he has no idea what the proper weightlifting guidelines are, or until he gets a torn pec muscle mowing the lawn in the offseason, or we discover he is genetically disposed to muscle tears, or we find out Horfy is a member of a secret fight club, I will simply stick with this very simple conclusion.

Al's body is falling apart.

I don't have to be an expert in anything to know something that has NEVER happened to ANYONE ELSE in competitive basketball has nothing to do with what you are saying. Playing center in the NBA has never cause gingivitis. No I am not a dentist. But I get this feeling that if AL has gingivitis you will probably blame that on playing Center too.

Your "simple conclusion" goes against medical science and all of the medical history in this sport. That is just wanting to believe what you want to believe despite all evidence showing you something else. But feel free to try and be condescending to me.

All getting beat up and Al tearing his pecs are two COMPLETELY different issues. And oddly, you know what else Al hasn't said besides being a PED user or having bad weightlifting guidelines(as you say)? That playing Center caused him to tear his pec. So basically the same requirement you have for saying this injury wasn't caused by playing Center isn't met for saying it was caused by playing center. So basically you have something you made up versus everything else in the world.

Yeah, there is no point in arguing the REAL simple conclusion here buddy.

[Jamaaliver]

from what , we dont know conclusively all im saying

Exactly!!!! I have a theory, but have acknowledged other potential causes yet come to my own conclusion. If more information comes out, I will adjust accordingly. I understand and rspect you have come to a different conclusion. Some of the other posters here do not allow alternate theories and seem to often speak in definitives. Two things I am wholeheartedly against.

Leads me to believe maybe he did heavy PED use in the beginning of his career, or recently, or he is over weight lifting. Would be curious to see what Hawks Trainers say behind closed doors

A distinct possibilty, but until allegations/evidence otherwise becomes available, I won't believe it.

I mean if hes getting hurt like this, then Basketball may not be his sport.

well the facts contradict that dont you think? Obviously he IS prone to it.

And that's the mystery. The kid has played elite, high level basketball for almost 15 years. At four different levels. Under a half dozen of coaches in a myriad of systems. He's logged heavy minutes since the day he came into the league. Why is this a recurring issue now?

[Jamaaliver]

Playing center in the NBA has never cause gingivitis. No I am not a dentist. But I get this feeling that if AL has gingivitis you will probably blame that on playing Center too.

Your "simple conclusion" goes against medical science and all of the medical history in this sport. That is just wanting to believe what you want to believe despite all evidence showing you something else.

A young man is out playing basketball, something he does often without issue. On a routine play he suffers a serious, gruesome, rare injury that takes months to recover from.

Two years later that same young man is out playing basketball, something he does often without issue. On a routine play he suffers that same serious, gruesome, rare injury that takes months to recover from.

In his entire life he has never experienced this injury. It's only ever occurred when he was playing basketball.

He concludes that this recurring injury is basketball related.

Are any of these statements innaccurate or unreasonable?

Are you really unwilling to even acknowledge the possibility?

[Jamaaliver]

So what are you suggesting? Where are all these Centers that have been available that the Hawks have passed on?

.....................

I'm sorry but more than half of that list are worse options than what we have now. Byron Mullens, Greg Stiemsma, Festus Ezeli, Fab Melo? Seroiusly? Then explain to me how taking a flyer on a foreign Center that has never performed in the NBA different from us taking a flyer on a foreign Center than has never performed in the NBA. Then you have old guys which would kinda negate your complain about Brand. some of those guys aren't even Centers and some of those guys you are just trying to be argumentative. Javalle McGee? Are you arguing we should have paid more than 10 million a year for him? How is Zaza Pachulia a upgrade over Antic or Brand? Emeka Okafor? The guy that can't play because of his injured neck...we should have signed him instead of Antic, Brand, Muscala, Bebe, and Ayon. That is a better move to you?

And on top of that you know for a FACT that the Hawks went after Bynum and Howard, looked into trading for Hawes and Asik. Come on dude.

My point was that there have literally been dozens of opportunities to attempt and upgrade the Center position next to AL or in front of AL. Ferry's had two offseasons to address the issue. I've been disappointed with his choices.

[Rip2137]

Playing center in the NBA has never cause gingivitis. No I am not a dentist. But I get this feeling that if AL has gingivitis you will probably blame that on playing Center too.

Your "simple conclusion" goes against medical science and all of the medical history in this sport. That is just wanting to believe what you want to believe despite all evidence showing you something else.

A young man is out playing basketball, something he does often without issue. On a routine play he suffers a serious, gruesome, rare injury that takes months to recover from.

Two years later that same young man is out playing basketball, something he does often without issue. On a routine play he suffers that same serious, gruesome, rare injury that takes months to recover from.

In his entire life he has never experienced this injury. It's only ever occurred when he was playing basketball.

He concludes that this recurring injury is basketball related.

Are any of these statements innaccurate or unreasonable?

Are you really unwilling to even acknowledge the possibility?

YES. Because it has NEVER HAPPEND TO ANYONE ELSE EVER IN THE HISTORY OF BASKETBALL.

His injury is AL Horford related. The ONLY other time it has happened in basketball is in the weight room with Darell Arthur. Again, this has NEVER HAPPEND and happened twice to one guy. Maybe its his workout intensity. Maybe it is PED's. Maybe its genetic. But no. I don't think its possible for Al Horford to be the only basketball player in the history of basketball to have this injury and it be "basketball related". Hundreds of smaller guys have played the same position against the same size and bigger guys yet miraculously not ONE of them tore their pec from the bone. Have they been beaten up and injured often? Yes! Could that be happening to Al? YES!!! Of course. Has that EVER caused a pectoral muscle to detach from bone? No. Never.

I will say this again. More guys have gotten "injured" and missed games SNEEZING in the NBA than have had pec tears outside of the weight room. Sneezing is not a basketball related injury.

[Rip2137]

So what are you suggesting? Where are all these Centers that have been available that the Hawks have passed on?

.....................

I'm sorry but more than half of that list are worse options than what we have now. Byron Mullens, Greg Stiemsma, Festus Ezeli, Fab Melo? Seroiusly? Then explain to me how taking a flyer on a foreign Center that has never performed in the NBA different from us taking a flyer on a foreign Center than has never performed in the NBA. Then you have old guys which would kinda negate your complain about Brand. some of those guys aren't even Centers and some of those guys you are just trying to be argumentative. Javalle McGee? Are you arguing we should have paid more than 10 million a year for him? How is Zaza Pachulia a upgrade over Antic or Brand? Emeka Okafor? The guy that can't play because of his injured neck...we should have signed him instead of Antic, Brand, Muscala, Bebe, and Ayon. That is a better move to you?

And on top of that you know for a FACT that the Hawks went after Bynum and Howard, looked into trading for Hawes and Asik. Come on dude.

My point was that there have literally been dozens of opportunities to attempt and upgrade the Center position next to AL or in front of AL. Ferry's had two offseasons to address the issue. I've been disappointed with his choices.

Okay, lets try this again. You listed:

Foreign players that had no NBA experience drafted in the 2nd round that didn't contribute as a rookie and blossomed into players : Ferry has done the first half of that.

Horrible players that are worse than what we have now. To UPGRADE you would need to be BETTER than the options that Ferry has added.

Guys that have been injured constantly: Again...to UPGRADE you would need to be BETTER than the options that Ferry has added. Dexter Pittman gave us more than Emeka Okafor could have this year, so why list him?

Guys that we DID try to acquire: So you are disappointed in Ferry's attempt to acquire a Center and to prove it you list guys he attempted to acquire? Do you not see how that makes no sense?

Guys smaller than Horford: So to save Al the banging of playing Center(which apparently makes guys chest explode) you fault Ferry for not bringing in a guy smaller than him to play Center....

Guys with stupid contracts AND suck AND are injury prone...okay so I was basically just talking about Javalle McGee...but still.

Remove those guys from your list and have a pretty anemic listing. I already said I felt like we should have gone after Lopez, but seriously, you can't consider the vast majority of those guys you listed as "upgrades". That's just artificial lengthening of a quite honestly crappy list of crappy players with a few decent ones sprinkled in. I mean, Fab Melo? Dude...Fab Melo....

[Jamaaliver]

YES. Because it has NEVER HAPPEND TO ANYONE ELSE EVER IN THE HISTORY OF BASKETBALL.

His injury is AL Horford related. The ONLY other time it has happened in basketball is in the weight room with Darell Arthur. Again, this has NEVER HAPPEND and happened twice to one guy. Maybe its his workout intensity. Maybe it is PED's. Maybe its genetic. But no. I don't think its possible for Al Horford to be the only basketball player in the history of basketball to have this injury and it be "basketball related". Hundreds of smaller guys have played the same position against the same size and bigger guys yet miraculously not ONE of them tore their pec from the bone. Have they been beaten up and injured often? Yes! Could that be happening to Al? YES!!! Of course. Has that EVER caused a pectoral muscle to detach from bone? No. Never.

I will say this again. More guys have gotten "injured" and missed games SNEEZING in the NBA than have had pec tears outside of the weight room. Sneezing is not a basketball related injury.

Sorry. I disagree. If you twist your ankle playing basketball, it is a basketball injury. If you break a finger playing basketball. It's a basketball injury. If you tear a muscle playing basketball, it's a basketball injury.

I can't speak to the other 100,000s of other players. But I can speak to the guy who twice tore a muscle while playing basketball.

Does it really bother you that much that my opinion differs from yours?

[PandaKidd]

Maybe its an anomaly. Why do some guys knee repititve knee surgeries and some dont. Why do guys like LBJ never get injured?

I guess we can all agree we will NEVER know what it is and what is really causing it, we can speculate its basketball or its other stuff.

We can ALL AGREE that AH needs to play PF, and we need a real center. right?

[Jamaaliver]

So what are you suggesting? Where are all these Centers that have been available that the Hawks have passed on?

.....................

I'm sorry but more than half of that list are worse options than what we have now. Byron Mullens, Greg Stiemsma, Festus Ezeli, Fab Melo? Seroiusly? Then explain to me how taking a flyer on a foreign Center that has never performed in the NBA different from us taking a flyer on a foreign Center than has never performed in the NBA. Then you have old guys which would kinda negate your complain about Brand. some of those guys aren't even Centers and some of those guys you are just trying to be argumentative. Javalle McGee? Are you arguing we should have paid more than 10 million a year for him? How is Zaza Pachulia a upgrade over Antic or Brand? Emeka Okafor? The guy that can't play because of his injured neck...we should have signed him instead of Antic, Brand, Muscala, Bebe, and Ayon. That is a better move to you?

And on top of that you know for a FACT that the Hawks went after Bynum and Howard, looked into trading for Hawes and Asik. Come on dude.

My point was that there have literally been dozens of opportunities to attempt and upgrade the Center position next to AL or in front of AL. Ferry's had two offseasons to address the issue. I've been disappointed with his choices.

Okay, lets try this again. You listed:

Foreign players that had no NBA experience drafted in the 2nd round that didn't contribute as a rookie and blossomed into players : Ferry has done the first half of that.

Horrible players that are worse than what we have now. To UPGRADE you would need to be BETTER than the options that Ferry has added.

Guys that have been injured constantly: Again...to UPGRADE you would need to be BETTER than the options that Ferry has added. Dexter Pittman gave us more than Emeka Okafor could have this year, so why list him?

Guys that we DID try to acquire: So you are disappointed in Ferry's attempt to acquire a Center and to prove it you list guys he attempted to acquire? Do you not see how that makes no sense?

Guys smaller than Horford: So to save Al the banging of playing Center(which apparently makes guys chest explode) you fault Ferry for not bringing in a guy smaller than him to play Center....

Guys with stupid contracts AND suck AND are injury prone...okay so I was basically just talking about Javalle McGee...but still.

Remove those guys from your list and have a pretty anemic listing. I already said I felt like we should have gone after Lopez, but seriously, you can't consider the vast majority of those guys you listed as "upgrades". That's just artificial lengthening of a quite honestly crappy list of crappy players with a few decent ones sprinkled in. I mean, Fab Melo? Dude...Fab Melo....

I literally named dozens of guys that Ferry could have obtained. Again. I simply disagree with you.

Is that allowed?

[Jamaaliver]

Your "simple conclusion" goes against medical science and all of the medical history in this sport. That is just wanting to believe what you want to believe despite all evidence showing you something else.

Are you really unwilling to even acknowledge the possibility?

YES. Because it has NEVER HAPPEND TO ANYONE ELSE EVER IN THE HISTORY OF BASKETBALL.

His injury is AL Horford related. Has that EVER caused a pectoral muscle to detach from bone? No. Never.

I will say this again. More guys have gotten "injured" and missed games SNEEZING in the NBA than have had pec tears outside of the weight room. Sneezing is not a basketball related injury.

Not that it matters, but there seems to be history of it:

Nowadays, pectoral injuries are caused by 1) sports injury (typically football or basketball when the arm is in extension and externally rotated or 2) the ever popular bench press - See more at: http://www.myhousecallmd.com/pectoral-t ... wuKYe.dpuf

Who is at Risk for Pulled Chest Muscles?
Sportspersons such as tennis players, football and basketball players, boxers, and other professionals who indulge in quick movement of the chest muscles and recurrent usage of the upper body portion, are highly susceptible to a muscle strain in the chest.

Read more at Buzzle: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/pulled-c ... ptoms.html

Dr. Nikola Gjuzelov
replied January 14th, 2009
Muscular and Nerve Disorders Answer A5359
Current medical status: 2-3 years ago i injured my chest playing basketball... i had a burning sensation all around my collar bone and on my pec...i also had muscle spasms and i could not rotate my arm. I went to the doctor and doctor got x-rays on my collarbone and found nothing so he diagnosed it as a torn pec. So he said i would most likely not need surgery and it would heal on its own. Now i still have the pain in my chest and around my collar bone and my collar bone looks swollen.
Current medical treatment: no therapy i took pain meds for a while


Read more: Surgical therapy for a torn pectoral muscle - Muscular and Nerve Disorders Forum - eHealthForum http://ehealthforum.com/health/surgical ... z2wMJaG3rn
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[Jamaaliver]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Al_Horford/status/468470195187511296[/tweet]

I have a distinct feeling AL Horford is going to come back with a vengeance this Fall.

MAN, I hope we at least have a viable backup at Center for him. He is still the single best player we have.

[ATLHawksfan21]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Al_Horford/status/468470195187511296[/tweet]

I have a distinct feeling AL Horford is going to come back with a vengeance this Fall.

MAN, I hope we at least have a viable backup at Center for him. He is still the single best player we have.

This is certainly good to hear! Al was straight killing it in December before he went down. Hopefully, he adds another element or two to his game and comes back even stronger.