Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong

[hands11]

Wall, Beal, TA, Webster, Nene, Gortat, Gooden, A Miller, AH, Booker, Otto, Temple, Kevin S

vs what.

Gil, Hughes, Jefferies, AJ, Haywood, Hayes, Ruffin, Dixon, Etan, Kwame, S Blake 45 win 2nd round team ?
Gil, AD, CB, AJ, Haywood, Jefferies, Etan Ruffin, Hayes ?

I'll take this team to beat either of those teams and I will take this rebuild and owner over that last one. Which would you take ?

Pretty sure I'd take 04-05 Wizards over this team. I'll call coach/GM/owner about even.

As a nod to your eternal optimism, I'm sure I can't say anything with absolute finality about the current team. I sure hope its ceiling is higher.

Fair enough. You take that team, I'll take this one. It would be fun to pit those teams against each other. Can that be done in a video games ? Is there an online SIM where you can que up teams like this and have it project the outcomes ?

As for coach vs coach. I'll take the amazingly sucky Witless over EFJ. LOL
Defense vs Offense. Gruff vs Ball Hugger. Neither could game time coach worth a crap. Thats a wash.

GM is the same only under different ownership and with more experience.

Owner ? I know I didn't like how Abe ran things. Hard to imagine anyone could do worse. With Ted, it appears he is better, but clearly no enough data yet. With Abe you have over 20 years.

[montestewart]

Wall, Beal, TA, Webster, Nene, Gortat, Gooden, A Miller, AH, Booker, Otto, Temple, Kevin S

vs what.

Gil, Hughes, Jefferies, AJ, Haywood, Hayes, Ruffin, Dixon, Etan, Kwame, S Blake 45 win 2nd round team ?
Gil, AD, CB, AJ, Haywood, Jefferies, Etan Ruffin, Hayes ?

I'll take this team to beat either of those teams and I will take this rebuild and owner over that last one. Which would you take ?

Pretty sure I'd take 04-05 Wizards over this team. I'll call coach/GM/owner about even.

As a nod to your eternal optimism, I'm sure I can't say anything with absolute finality about the current team. I sure hope its ceiling is higher.

Fair enough. You take that team, I'll take this one. It would be fun to pit those teams against each other. Can that be done in on of these video games ? Is there an online SIM where you can que up teams like this and have it project the outcomes ? Man that would be fun to watch.

As for coach vs coach. I'll take the amazingly sucky Witless over EFJ. LOL
Defense vs Offense. Gruff vs Ball Hugger. Neither could game time coach worth a crap. Thats a wash.

GM is the same only under different ownership and with more experience.

Owner ? I know I didn't like how Abe ran things. Hard to imagine anyone could do worse. With Ted, it appears he is better, but clearly no enough data yet. With Abe you have over 20 years.

With Abe, you have over 40 years. Pollin had a heyday. By the time he died, the league he'd help build had sort of passed him by. Trading Webber and resigning injured Arenas were both very bad moves. But he did bring a championship, three other finals appearances, and the best NBA team this city has had so far. To me, the most notable thing Leonsis has done is lie about what happened to the championship trophy. Hopefully he's got a little more to him than that.

[hands11]

Pretty sure I'd take 04-05 Wizards over this team. I'll call coach/GM/owner about even.

As a nod to your eternal optimism, I'm sure I can't say anything with absolute finality about the current team. I sure hope its ceiling is higher.

Fair enough. You take that team, I'll take this one. It would be fun to pit those teams against each other. Can that be done in on of these video games ? Is there an online SIM where you can que up teams like this and have it project the outcomes ? Man that would be fun to watch.

As for coach vs coach. I'll take the amazingly sucky Witless over EFJ. LOL
Defense vs Offense. Gruff vs Ball Hugger. Neither could game time coach worth a crap. Thats a wash.

GM is the same only under different ownership and with more experience.

Owner ? I know I didn't like how Abe ran things. Hard to imagine anyone could do worse. With Ted, it appears he is better, but clearly no enough data yet. With Abe you have over 20 years.

With Abe, you have over 40 years. Pollin had a heyday. By the time he died, the league he'd help build had sort of passed him by. Trading Webber and resigning injured Arenas were both very bad moves. But he did bring a championship, three other finals appearances, and the best NBA team this city has had so far. To me, the most notable thing Leonsis has done is lie about what happened to the championship trophy. Hopefully he's got a little more to him than that.

LOL.

For Ted, What about signing Wall to max early. That was an assertive move. And dude did drop a butt ton of weight. Gotta give him props for that.

Hey, I live through that title run and the finals games in other seasons. So I feel ya. But yeah, the league passed Abe by. He was a mom and pop owner in a corporate league. But landover back in the day was something special. And the little bullet hot dog dog with the wagon.. LOL.

I grown up on the black tops making moves shouting.. EEEEE or Bobby DDDD and CJ. Lets not forget little CJ running hard to the baseline and launching the long ball. I have a great memory of that year. I remember telling my father they were going to win it all and him laughing at me. They were the Bullets. They weren't going to win it all. I had already become a fan in my early teens as I started playing basketball myself. My father only knew the team as the local team that couldn't win a title. He wasn't a basketball fan like I was.

I remember being at a friends pool and running and jumping from the diving board to sling a ball into a small floating hoop and yelling CJJJJJJJJJJJJJ. Good stuff. Fond memory to have. The team became the buzz. There were less things to distract people back then. Less shows to watch so when the Bullets won it all it was a huge deal. Some with when the Redskins won it all the first time.

[DANNYLANDOVER]

A "Great" GM? The title of this thread makes me want to puke. Safe to say that I will be staying away from this delusion of grandeur.

[mohammed10]

A "Great" GM? The title of this thread makes me want to puke. Safe to say that I will be staying away from this delusion of grandeur.

Who knows...milellie111 (OP) = Ernie?

[leswizards]

Pick a methodology. Then people here can have an honest debate with you.

I am having an honest debate. The only thing that matters is that EG has assembled a team of first round picks that were obvious choices, high priced veterans that push the team toward the cap and luxury tax, and first round busts. He has added almost no players that are producing over and above what they are getting paid. His mistakes are killing the Wizards ability to build a long term contender. He needs to go.

[TGW]

Pick a methodology. Then people here can have an honest debate with you.

I am having an honest debate. The only thing that matters is that EG has assembled a team of first round picks that were obvious choices, high priced veterans that push the team toward the cap and luxury tax, and first round busts. He has added almost no players that are producing over and above what they are getting paid. His mistakes are killing the Wizards ability to build a long term contender. He needs to go.

"And 1"

[dckingsfan]

Man - if millie started this thread thinking it would help EG - it has only made him look worse.

[hands11]

Pick a methodology. Then people here can have an honest debate with you.

I am having an honest debate. The only thing that matters is that EG has assembled a team of first round picks that were obvious choices, high priced veterans that push the team toward the cap and luxury tax, and first round busts. He has added almost no players that are producing over and above what they are getting paid. His mistakes are killing the Wizards ability to build a long term contender. He needs to go.

So those are the only things that matter to you right now ? Sounds like you have forgotten what being a fan of a sports team is about.

Why with games remaining and a playoff appearance just ahead of them would the focus be on EG getting replaced when that decision isn't scheduled to happen until after the playoffs.

Why would you bother following them if you can't find any joy in what actually happening good that is happening right now ? And If there is no hope over the next 1-3 years because you don't trust Ted, why bother following them and posting on a bulletin board about them ? Just troll fans that actually find some joy in following the team ? Why not just come back when you think there is actually something to enjoy ? And what happens after the playoffs if EG gets resigned ? Are you going to stop being a fan of the team ? Well if that's the case, there is even more reason you should enjoy the remaining games and the playoffs because if they resign EG, you will be hunting for a new team to follow.

EG will get addressed in the offseason. The trade deadline has passed so him holding as the GM doesn't have much if any effect on the remaining games and playoff run. About the only thing he might still do is cut Singleton and call up Rice. Not franchise changing moves. The things you have concerns about are not active issues right now. They are summer issues.

So no, the things you say are the only important things to focus on are not the important things for fans of the team to focused on. Other more important things right now are the games left to play. The playoff experience. Its Wall and Beal developing. It watching new additions like Gooden, Miller and AH help them win. Its the franchise getting better exposure as the team shows a vastly better record then last year and improved play from Wall as their #1 pick franchise player. Its his newly developed 3 ball. I bet there are more fans focused on those things than worrying about what they do with EG over the summer.

[leswizards]

Pick a methodology. Then people here can have an honest debate with you.

I am having an honest debate. The only thing that matters is that EG has assembled a team of first round picks that were obvious choices, high priced veterans that push the team toward the cap and luxury tax, and first round busts. He has added almost no players that are producing over and above what they are getting paid. His mistakes are killing the Wizards ability to build a long term contender. He needs to go.

So those are the only things that matter to you right now ? Sounds like you have forgotten what being a fan of a sports team is about.

Why with games remaining and a playoff appearance just ahead of them would the focus be on EG getting replayed when that decision isn't scheduled to happen until after the playoffs.

Why would you bother following them if you can't find any joy in what actually happening good that is happening right now ? And If there is no hope over the next 1-3 years because you don't trust Ted, why bother following them and posting on a bulletin board about them ? Just troll fans that actually find some joy in following the team ? Why not just come back when you think there is actually something to enjoy ? And what happens after the playoffs if EG gets resigned ? Are you going to stop being a fan of the team ? Well if that's the case, there is even more reason you should enjoy the remaining games and the playoffs because if they resign EG, you will be hunting for a new team to follow.

EG will get addressed in the offseason. The trade deadline has passed so him holding as the GM doesn't have much if any effect on the remaining games and playoff run. About the only thing he might still do is cut Singleton and call up Rice. Not franchise changing moves. The things you have concerns about are not active issues right now. They are summer issues.

So no, the things you say are the only important things to focus on are not the important things for fans of the team to focused on. Other more important things right now are the games left to play. The playoff experience. Its Wall and Beal developing. It watching new additions like Gooden, Miller and AH help them win. Its the franchise getting better exposure as the team shows a vastly better record then last year and improved play from Wall as their #1 pick franchise player. Its his newly developed 3 ball. I bet there are more fans focused on those things than worrying about what they do with EG over the summer.

That is the fallacy of a straw man.

[leswizards]

I am having an honest debate. The only thing that matters is that EG has assembled a team of first round picks that were obvious choices, high priced veterans that push the team toward the cap and luxury tax, and first round busts. He has added almost no players that are producing over and above what they are getting paid. His mistakes are killing the Wizards ability to build a long term contender. He needs to go.

So those are the only things that matter to you right now ? Sounds like you have forgotten what being a fan of a sports team is about.

Why with games remaining and a playoff appearance just ahead of them would the focus be on EG getting replayed when that decision isn't scheduled to happen until after the playoffs.

Why would you bother following them if you can't find any joy in what actually happening good that is happening right now ? And If there is no hope over the next 1-3 years because you don't trust Ted, why bother following them and posting on a bulletin board about them ? Just troll fans that actually find some joy in following the team ? Why not just come back when you think there is actually something to enjoy ? And what happens after the playoffs if EG gets resigned ? Are you going to stop being a fan of the team ? Well if that's the case, there is even more reason you should enjoy the remaining games and the playoffs because if they resign EG, you will be hunting for a new team to follow.

EG will get addressed in the offseason. The trade deadline has passed so him holding as the GM doesn't have much if any effect on the remaining games and playoff run. About the only thing he might still do is cut Singleton and call up Rice. Not franchise changing moves. The things you have concerns about are not active issues right now. They are summer issues.

So no, the things you say are the only important things to focus on are not the important things for fans of the team to focused on. Other more important things right now are the games left to play. The playoff experience. Its Wall and Beal developing. It watching new additions like Gooden, Miller and AH help them win. Its the franchise getting better exposure as the team shows a vastly better record then last year and improved play from Wall as their #1 pick franchise player. Its his newly developed 3 ball. I bet there are more fans focused on those things than worrying about what they do with EG over the summer.

That is the fallacy of a straw man.

You talk about an honest debate, and then invent a straw man and falsely claim it as my views. Apparently it is you that is incapable of having an honest debate.

[hands11]

So those are the only things that matter to you right now ? Sounds like you have forgotten what being a fan of a sports team is about.

Why with games remaining and a playoff appearance just ahead of them would the focus be on EG getting replayed when that decision isn't scheduled to happen until after the playoffs.

Why would you bother following them if you can't find any joy in what actually happening good that is happening right now ? And If there is no hope over the next 1-3 years because you don't trust Ted, why bother following them and posting on a bulletin board about them ? Just troll fans that actually find some joy in following the team ? Why not just come back when you think there is actually something to enjoy ? And what happens after the playoffs if EG gets resigned ? Are you going to stop being a fan of the team ? Well if that's the case, there is even more reason you should enjoy the remaining games and the playoffs because if they resign EG, you will be hunting for a new team to follow.

EG will get addressed in the offseason. The trade deadline has passed so him holding as the GM doesn't have much if any effect on the remaining games and playoff run. About the only thing he might still do is cut Singleton and call up Rice. Not franchise changing moves. The things you have concerns about are not active issues right now. They are summer issues.

So no, the things you say are the only important things to focus on are not the important things for fans of the team to focused on. Other more important things right now are the games left to play. The playoff experience. Its Wall and Beal developing. It watching new additions like Gooden, Miller and AH help them win. Its the franchise getting better exposure as the team shows a vastly better record then last year and improved play from Wall as their #1 pick franchise player. Its his newly developed 3 ball. I bet there are more fans focused on those things than worrying about what they do with EG over the summer.

That is the fallacy of a straw man.

You talk about an honest debate, and then invent a straw man and falsely claim it as my views. Apparently it is you that is incapable of having an honest debate.

You lost me now. I responded to your position about what you said the only important things were with my view on what is important right now. I detailed my position and why. All you have as a response to that is a one liner about a straw man without any details to back up the claim. I have no idea what strawman you think I created.

My hope is that you enjoy whats ahead and suspend your worries about what follows this summer until that is the next important thing on the plate. Enjoy the games. Celebrate the wins or good play and get pissed when they fail. Enjoy others who are fans of the team doing the same.

That's whats ahead of us. Once the playoffs are over, thats when we will all be on pins and needles watching the big decision that are on the plate this summer.

[leswizards]

Pick a methodology. Then people here can have an honest debate with you.

I am having an honest debate. The only thing that matters is that EG has assembled a team of first round picks that were obvious choices, high priced veterans that push the team toward the cap and luxury tax, and first round busts. He has added almost no players that are producing over and above what they are getting paid. His mistakes are killing the Wizards ability to build a long term contender. He needs to go.

So those are the only things that matter to you right now ? Sounds like you have forgotten what being a fan of a sports team is about.

When I wrote "The only thing that matters", I assumed that most people would be intelligent and honest enough to understand that I was clearly referencing the debate that we were having over whether EG should still be GM. Your straw man about my comment about "The only thing that matters" being a universal statement in regards to my view of the Wizards and my ability to enjoy the team, you have proven I either gave you too much credit in my assumption in regards to your honesty or your intellect.

[hands11]

I am having an honest debate. The only thing that matters is that EG has assembled a team of first round picks that were obvious choices, high priced veterans that push the team toward the cap and luxury tax, and first round busts. He has added almost no players that are producing over and above what they are getting paid. His mistakes are killing the Wizards ability to build a long term contender. He needs to go.

So those are the only things that matter to you right now ? Sounds like you have forgotten what being a fan of a sports team is about.

When I wrote "The only thing that matters", I assumed that most people would be intelligent and honest enough to understand that I was clearly referencing the debate that we were having over whether EG should still be GM. Your straw man about my comment about "The only thing that matters" being a universal statement in regards to my view of the Wizards and my ability to enjoy the team, you have proven I either gave you too much credit in my assumption in regards to your honesty or your intellect.

Considering that was your response to a detailed post I made about different time frames and things to focus on, yeah. I took your short targeted response to mean what you actually wrote. I only do the mind reading things when interacting with women.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

Fair enough. You take that team, I'll take this one. It would be fun to pit those teams against each other. Can that be done in on of these video games ? Is there an online SIM where you can que up teams like this and have it project the outcomes ? Man that would be fun to watch.

As for coach vs coach. I'll take the amazingly sucky Witless over EFJ. LOL
Defense vs Offense. Gruff vs Ball Hugger. Neither could game time coach worth a crap. Thats a wash.

GM is the same only under different ownership and with more experience.

Owner ? I know I didn't like how Abe ran things. Hard to imagine anyone could do worse. With Ted, it appears he is better, but clearly no enough data yet. With Abe you have over 20 years.

With Abe, you have over 40 years. Pollin had a heyday. By the time he died, the league he'd help build had sort of passed him by. Trading Webber and resigning injured Arenas were both very bad moves. But he did bring a championship, three other finals appearances, and the best NBA team this city has had so far. To me, the most notable thing Leonsis has done is lie about what happened to the championship trophy. Hopefully he's got a little more to him than that.

LOL.

For Ted, What about signing Gil to max early. That was an assertive move. And dude did drop a butt ton of weight. Gotta give him props for that.

Hey, I live through that title run and the finals games in other seasons. So I feel ya. But yeah, the league passed Abe by. He was a mom and pop owner in a corporate league. But landover back in the day was something special. And the little bullet hot dog dog with the wagon.. LOL.

I grown up on the black tops making moves shouting.. EEEEE or Bobby DDDD and CJ. Lets not forget little CJ running hard to the baseline and launching the long ball. I have a great memory of that year. I remember telling my father they were going to win it all and him laughing at me. They were the Bullets. They weren't going to win it all. I had already become a fan in my early teens as I started playing basketball myself. My father only knew the team as the local team that couldn't win a title. He wasn't a basketball fan like I was.

I remember being at a friends pool and running and jumping from the diving board to sling a ball into a small floating hoop and yelling CJJJJJJJJJJJJJ. Good stuff. Fond memory to have. The team became the buzz. There were less things to distract people back then. Less shows to watch so when the Bullets won it all it was a huge deal. Some with when the Redskins won it all the first time.

Good memories, Hands. But dang, I figured you were younger than I am.

When did you graduate high school... And from where?

[leswizards]

Considering that was your response to a detailed post I made about different time frames and things to focus on, yeah. I took your short targeted response to mean what you actually wrote. I only do the mind reading things when interacting with women.

Your detailed post was about judging EG over different time frames. Apparently, you are not smart enough to even remember what you wrote about.

[leswizards]

Considering that was your response to a detailed post I made about different time frames and things to focus on, yeah. I took your short targeted response to mean what you actually wrote. I only do the mind reading things when interacting with women.

Your detailed post was about judging EG over different time frames. Apparently, you are not smart enough to even remember what you wrote about.

I also might add that this whole thread is about whether EG is a great GM, and has proved his doubters wrong. Stop being so slow and try to keep up.

[hands11]

Ah. Right. I'm not keeping up. If you want to know what the thread is about, you might want to read it from page one.

Thanks for your contributions since page 20.

I'm done with this little back and forth. Its clearly going no where interesting. I am smart enough to realize that.

[leswizards]

Ah. Right. I'm not keeping up. If you want to know what the thread is about, you might want to read it from page one.

Thanks for your contributions since page 20.

I'm done with this little back and forth. Its clearly going no where interesting. I am smart enough to realize that.

It was interesting until you felt the need to resort to a cheap debating trick in a fallacy of a straw man.

I also might add that your last post is borderline fallacy of appeal to authority (ie, I have been here longer hence I have more credibility than you).

[Nivek]

What is the time frame ?
Some feel the time frame is this year over last. Some feel its since Ted took over. Some think its since he was the Wizards GM. Some feel its his entire GM work. A case can be made for each of those as viable but some look at them separately, in context and weighted differently. The longer the time frame, the more variables there are.

Clearly some fans, specially new ones, look at this year over last or this year over two years or this year over since Ted as the more relevant conversation to have. For those who have prebaked everything is failure, the progress is a sell out dead end so they don't see progress as progress. Those people tend to find something bad in every move and always frame things and add speculation to make it that way. Or they change the conversation to something longer term that was bad that supports their negative take things. For those that understand the offseason is a huge blank slate, they see progress or progress toward something that can keep getting better so they are enjoying the good moves and more wins. Gooden was a good move so you find some fans of the Wizards enjoying things getting better year over year.

That's what goes on here.

Year over year is a win.
The combined moves both good and bad, improved med staff, etc. has added up to 7 more wins than last year so far with 13 games to go. Lets say they end up at 14 games better then last year. That 48% more wins.

No way you can ignore the validity of some fans seeing that as progress. Now you can change the time frame to draw the conversation into something negative, but evaluating things on shorter time frames is also relevant. It why people looking at stock look at different windows as well. I'm in a stock that tanked when the banks failed. It bottomed out at like 6. I got in after that. Its now at 14 and paying a 10% dividend. I wasn't in it before it tanked so I don't evaluate it based on that. Its an interesting reference point, but not more important then what it is doing for me know.

Not knowing what the offseason brings, it perfectly valid for fans to look at this data as a positive.

Even looking at the team year over year, I don't see the "win" for Grunfeld. The record is better, but his individual moves were mediocre at best.

1. Draft Porter -- incomplete for the long-term. For this season, it's an abject failure.
2. Traded two 2nd round picks for Glen Rice -- incomplete for the long-term, but like Porter for this season, it's a failure. Especially when one of the guys they traded (Wolters) has been a solid reserve PG (for league minimum).
3. Signed Eric Maynor -- total, complete, utter abject failure
4. Re-signed Martell Webster -- not a bad move in isolation. Webster's been down some this year (I think he's been playing hurt much of the year), but he still provides outstanding shooting. His game isn't much beyond the shooting, and his contract isn't outlandish, but it is full retail for what he does. But, giving full MLE to a limited SF/SG is at least questionable for a team with Ariza already on the roster, with Porter and Rice drafted, and with a glaring need for frontcourt depth.
5. Traded Okafor and a 1st round pick for Gortat -- On the court, a clear success. Gortat's been good. They'll probably re-sign him to the expensive decline portion of his career.
6. Traded Vesely, Maynor and a 2nd round pick for Andre Miller -- On the court, a good move. And, the Wizards didn't give up much. But still, that's two terrible mistakes plus another future asset for the league's second oldest PG.
7. Signed Drew Gooden -- good move so far.

So, seven roster moves -- three of which are total failures for this season, two of which are iffy (at best), and two of which were at least okay.