Early Projection: Andre Drummond

[bakesale]

I watched some pistons games to see how good Drummond was. I watched against Indiana, Toronto and Sacramento. I gotta say I think his one on one defence is very very good. He isn't great at help defence though. Guys like bogut, gasol and hibbert are kind of omnipresent and help out when little guys attack the lane, they don't have great quickness but they have great anticipation and are always in a position to prevent any inside scoring, not just from their direct opponent.
Thing is though, there are many centres in the nba you could say are good one on one defenders, even Andrea bargnani is a good low post one on one defender, but to be a great defensive anchor you need all those extra little things like great positioning, anticipation, having an iq of the flow of their offence and knowing where the ball is going to go etc that separates the good defenders from the best defenders...
I think his offensive polish needs a lot of work and could be limited... Call me crazy but I don't think Detroit can become a defensive powerhouse with Drummond as their anchor. I'd say his defence is on par with gortat or Lopez. Good and serviceable but not elite.
I still like the guy, but do think he's a bit overhyped. I'm saying don't be surprised if he doesn't end up being anywhere near the elite defender that dwight Howard is...

Bear in mind you're ranked 23rd in defence. If Drummond was an elite defender, you'd be better than 23rd...

Drummond is 20 years old already playing for his 3rd coach in 2 seasons, While also playing with a dysfunctional roster. He will be fine once things get better from a roster and coach standpoint.

You think all it takes is a good coach? I hope you're right cos right now his defensive iq, his ability to read where the play is going, knowing when to contest and when to stay back, all those intangibles aren't there. It looks like he gets lost especially if the opp team has good ball movement.
Things like iq and second level efforts are a hard thing to learn if you don't already have it.

[MotownMadness]

I watched some pistons games to see how good Drummond was. I watched against Indiana, Toronto and Sacramento. I gotta say I think his one on one defence is very very good. He isn't great at help defence though. Guys like bogut, gasol and hibbert are kind of omnipresent and help out when little guys attack the lane, they don't have great quickness but they have great anticipation and are always in a position to prevent any inside scoring, not just from their direct opponent.
Thing is though, there are many centres in the nba you could say are good one on one defenders, even Andrea bargnani is a good low post one on one defender, but to be a great defensive anchor you need all those extra little things like great positioning, anticipation, having an iq of the flow of their offence and knowing where the ball is going to go etc that separates the good defenders from the best defenders...
I think his offensive polish needs a lot of work and could be limited... Call me crazy but I don't think Detroit can become a defensive powerhouse with Drummond as their anchor. I'd say his defence is on par with gortat or Lopez. Good and serviceable but not elite.
I still like the guy, but do think he's a bit overhyped. I'm saying don't be surprised if he doesn't end up being anywhere near the elite defender that dwight Howard is...

Bear in mind you're ranked 23rd in defence. If Drummond was an elite defender, you'd be better than 23rd...

Drummond is 20 years old already playing for his 3rd coach in 2 seasons, While also playing with a dysfunctional roster. He will be fine once things get better from a roster and coach standpoint.

You think all it takes is a good coach? I hope you're right cos right now his defensive iq, his ability to read where the play is going, knowing when to contest and when to stay back, all those intangibles aren't there. It looks like he gets lost especially if the opp team has good ball movement.
Things like iq and second level efforts are a hard thing to learn if you don't already have it.

This is a whole different situation in Detroit than just a bad coach. We have no coach and two players who have the green light to just do whatever the hell they feel like on the court without repercussions. And Yeah I think a good coach and a roster that wasnt get beat by theyre man on every play from every position would do wonders for him. He has the skill set to be a force defensively. He just needs a coach and a few more years experience to learn how to position himself better.

[Q00]

Look at a lot of the top defensive teams and they all have an excellent defensive anchor:
Chicago has Noah, Memphis has gasol, spurs have Duncan, Indiana has hibbert, warriors have bogut, okc has ibaka...

Do you think Drummond has the defensive chops to have a dynamic impact on defence like the guys I have listed above?

Yes.

What do all those teams have in common that the Pistons don't?

They all have really good team defenders around their Center and good defensive coach's.

One player doesn't make a whole defense look good by himself. Its called team defense for a reason. In other words, if you traded Drummond for any of those Centers you mentioned, the Pistons defense would still be terrible.

As for Valanciunas, I've seen some Raptors games and Toronto has a good team defense and he's a good team defender, and Casey is a good defensive coach. I haven't seen anything special about Valanciunas as an individual defender though.

I'd like to think that the aforementioned defensive centres do have a dynamic impact on their teams. For eg the year bogut left the bucks they went from a top 5 defensive team to one of the worst.
Or a more recent eg when gasol was injured earlier this year the Memphis defence was easy to score against. Since coming back they've gone back to being one of the best defensive teams in the nba and are back in contention for the playoffs out of the blue.

I'm not trying to upset any Detroit fans, I was just a bit concerned about drummond's defence and is it really that impactful or is he a stats padder?

I wasn't upset at all, just answering your question honestly.

We're talking about two different things when you say those Centers don't have an impact on their teams. Obviously they are great defensive players and have an impact, but there's a difference between a team full of good defenders becoming elite upon the return of their best defender, and that same defender going to a team full of bad defenders and thinking he will turn them into a good team defense all by himself.

That's why I said I think the Pistons defense as a whole would still be terrible even if you traded Drummond for any of those guys. Whether its Drummond, Noah, Hibbert, or whoever, not even Ben Wallace in his prime can guard all 5 players himself and stop constantly dribble penetrating guards from wreaking chaos on the whole defense, or make the Pistons defend the 1-4 pick and roll any better.

Point is that even with Noah on this team, the perimeter defense would still be a sieve, and offenses would still put Monroe and Jennings in pick and rolls that they can't guard, as well as late rotations and confusion from everyone around him.

In the case of Bogut and the Bucks, it wasn't just him that changed. If you look at their 2011 season when they were 3rd in defense, the top 6 guys in minutes (Salmons, Bogut, Moute, Dooling, Delfino, Jennings) have all been good team defenders throughout their careers, with Jennings the exception. Then the next season when Bogut only played 12 games before getting traded and they were 22nd in defense, their top 6 guys in minutes were (Jennings, Ilyasova, Delfino, Gooden, Dunleavy, Livingston) plus Monta also played big minutes after the trade.

So they went from Bogut, Salmons, Moute, Dooling - all solid defenders, alongside Jennings...to matadors like Ilyasova, Dunleavy, Livingston, Gooden, and Ellis.

Thus you can see it wasn't just Bogut.

I'm not saying one great defensive Center can't make a bad defense better, but it requires the other guys to buy in as well and do their jobs too. Here on the Pistons you have none of that, so it wouldn't matter who was at Center, they would still be a bad defense playing like this, in my opinion.

[bakesale]

Yes.

What do all those teams have in common that the Pistons don't?

They all have really good team defenders around their Center and good defensive coach's.

One player doesn't make a whole defense look good by himself. Its called team defense for a reason. In other words, if you traded Drummond for any of those Centers you mentioned, the Pistons defense would still be terrible.

As for Valanciunas, I've seen some Raptors games and Toronto has a good team defense and he's a good team defender, and Casey is a good defensive coach. I haven't seen anything special about Valanciunas as an individual defender though.

I'd like to think that the aforementioned defensive centres do have a dynamic impact on their teams. For eg the year bogut left the bucks they went from a top 5 defensive team to one of the worst.
Or a more recent eg when gasol was injured earlier this year the Memphis defence was easy to score against. Since coming back they've gone back to being one of the best defensive teams in the nba and are back in contention for the playoffs out of the blue.

I'm not trying to upset any Detroit fans, I was just a bit concerned about drummond's defence and is it really that impactful or is he a stats padder?

I wasn't upset at all, just answering your question honestly.

We're talking about two different things when you say those Centers don't have an impact on their teams. Obviously they are great defensive players and have an impact, but there's a difference between a team full of good defenders becoming elite upon the return of their best defender, and that same defender going to a team full of bad defenders and thinking he will turn them into a good team defense all by himself.

That's why I said I think the Pistons defense as a whole would still be terrible even if you traded Drummond for any of those guys. Whether its Drummond, Noah, Hibbert, or whoever, not even Ben Wallace in his prime can guard all 5 players himself and stop constantly dribble penetrating guards from wreaking chaos on the whole defense, or make the Pistons defend the 1-4 pick and roll any better.

Point is that even with Noah on this team, the perimeter defense would still be a sieve, and offenses would still put Monroe and Jennings in pick and rolls that they can't guard, as well as late rotations and confusion from everyone around him.

In the case of Bogut and the Bucks, it wasn't just him that changed. If you look at their 2011 season when they were 3rd in defense, the top 6 guys in minutes (Salmons, Bogut, Moute, Dooling, Delfino, Jennings) have all been good team defenders throughout their careers, with Jennings the exception. Then the next season when Bogut only played 12 games before getting traded and they were 22nd in defense, their top 6 guys in minutes were (Jennings, Ilyasova, Delfino, Gooden, Dunleavy, Livingston) plus Monta also played big minutes after the trade.

So they went from Bogut, Salmons, Moute, Dooling - all solid defenders, alongside Jennings...to matadors like Ilyasova, Dunleavy, Livingston, Gooden, and Ellis.

Thus you can see it wasn't just Bogut.

I'm not saying one great defensive Center can't make a bad defense better, but it requires the other guys to buy in as well and do their jobs too. Here on the Pistons you have none of that, so it wouldn't matter who was at Center, they would still be a bad defense playing like this, in my opinion.

ok

How about this?
Bogut went to warriors surrounded by d lee (horrible defender), Barnes a rookie whose defence was average at best, klay was getting better but not great like he is now and curry who was also a horrible defender. They didn't have iggy at the time and yet the warriors went from 29th in defence to 7th in the league.
Look at when Dallas had chandler they weren't a great defence but with a great defensive anchor they had just enough to beat Miami. Yes they played some zone but i guarantee they wouldn't have beaten Miami without chandler.
2 eg of great defensive centres who had to play alongside average to terrible defenders

[MotownMadness]

I'd like to think that the aforementioned defensive centres do have a dynamic impact on their teams. For eg the year bogut left the bucks they went from a top 5 defensive team to one of the worst.
Or a more recent eg when gasol was injured earlier this year the Memphis defence was easy to score against. Since coming back they've gone back to being one of the best defensive teams in the nba and are back in contention for the playoffs out of the blue.

I'm not trying to upset any Detroit fans, I was just a bit concerned about drummond's defence and is it really that impactful or is he a stats padder?

I wasn't upset at all, just answering your question honestly.

We're talking about two different things when you say those Centers don't have an impact on their teams. Obviously they are great defensive players and have an impact, but there's a difference between a team full of good defenders becoming elite upon the return of their best defender, and that same defender going to a team full of bad defenders and thinking he will turn them into a good team defense all by himself.

That's why I said I think the Pistons defense as a whole would still be terrible even if you traded Drummond for any of those guys. Whether its Drummond, Noah, Hibbert, or whoever, not even Ben Wallace in his prime can guard all 5 players himself and stop constantly dribble penetrating guards from wreaking chaos on the whole defense, or make the Pistons defend the 1-4 pick and roll any better.

Point is that even with Noah on this team, the perimeter defense would still be a sieve, and offenses would still put Monroe and Jennings in pick and rolls that they can't guard, as well as late rotations and confusion from everyone around him.

In the case of Bogut and the Bucks, it wasn't just him that changed. If you look at their 2011 season when they were 3rd in defense, the top 6 guys in minutes (Salmons, Bogut, Moute, Dooling, Delfino, Jennings) have all been good team defenders throughout their careers, with Jennings the exception. Then the next season when Bogut only played 12 games before getting traded and they were 22nd in defense, their top 6 guys in minutes were (Jennings, Ilyasova, Delfino, Gooden, Dunleavy, Livingston) plus Monta also played big minutes after the trade.

So they went from Bogut, Salmons, Moute, Dooling - all solid defenders, alongside Jennings...to matadors like Ilyasova, Dunleavy, Livingston, Gooden, and Ellis.

Thus you can see it wasn't just Bogut.

I'm not saying one great defensive Center can't make a bad defense better, but it requires the other guys to buy in as well and do their jobs too. Here on the Pistons you have none of that, so it wouldn't matter who was at Center, they would still be a bad defense playing like this, in my opinion.

ok

How about this?
Bogut went to warriors surrounded by d lee (horrible defender), Barnes a rookie whose defence was average at best, klay was getting better but not great like he is now and curry who was also a horrible defender. They didn't have iggy at the time and yet the warriors went from 29th in defence to 7th in the league.
Look at when Dallas had chandler they weren't a great defence but with a great defensive anchor they had just enough to beat Miami. Yes they played some zone but i guarantee they wouldn't have beaten Miami without chandler.
2 eg of great defensive centres who had to play alongside average to terrible defenders

The fact that your comparing a 20 year old center to guys on established teams with many more years experience is comical. Lets put 20 year old version of Chandler, Bogut or even Noah on this roster with no coach and see if the outcome is any different.

[MotownMadness]

I wasn't upset at all, just answering your question honestly.

We're talking about two different things when you say those Centers don't have an impact on their teams. Obviously they are great defensive players and have an impact, but there's a difference between a team full of good defenders becoming elite upon the return of their best defender, and that same defender going to a team full of bad defenders and thinking he will turn them into a good team defense all by himself.

That's why I said I think the Pistons defense as a whole would still be terrible even if you traded Drummond for any of those guys. Whether its Drummond, Noah, Hibbert, or whoever, not even Ben Wallace in his prime can guard all 5 players himself and stop constantly dribble penetrating guards from wreaking chaos on the whole defense, or make the Pistons defend the 1-4 pick and roll any better.

Point is that even with Noah on this team, the perimeter defense would still be a sieve, and offenses would still put Monroe and Jennings in pick and rolls that they can't guard, as well as late rotations and confusion from everyone around him.

In the case of Bogut and the Bucks, it wasn't just him that changed. If you look at their 2011 season when they were 3rd in defense, the top 6 guys in minutes (Salmons, Bogut, Moute, Dooling, Delfino, Jennings) have all been good team defenders throughout their careers, with Jennings the exception. Then the next season when Bogut only played 12 games before getting traded and they were 22nd in defense, their top 6 guys in minutes were (Jennings, Ilyasova, Delfino, Gooden, Dunleavy, Livingston) plus Monta also played big minutes after the trade.

So they went from Bogut, Salmons, Moute, Dooling - all solid defenders, alongside Jennings...to matadors like Ilyasova, Dunleavy, Livingston, Gooden, and Ellis.

Thus you can see it wasn't just Bogut.

I'm not saying one great defensive Center can't make a bad defense better, but it requires the other guys to buy in as well and do their jobs too. Here on the Pistons you have none of that, so it wouldn't matter who was at Center, they would still be a bad defense playing like this, in my opinion.

ok

How about this?
Bogut went to warriors surrounded by d lee (horrible defender), Barnes a rookie whose defence was average at best, klay was getting better but not great like he is now and curry who was also a horrible defender. They didn't have iggy at the time and yet the warriors went from 29th in defence to 7th in the league.
Look at when Dallas had chandler they weren't a great defence but with a great defensive anchor they had just enough to beat Miami. Yes they played some zone but i guarantee they wouldn't have beaten Miami without chandler.
2 eg of great defensive centres who had to play alongside average to terrible defenders

The fact that your comparing a 20 year old center to guys on established teams with many more years experience is comical. Lets put 20 year old version of Chandler, Bogut or even Noah on this roster with no coach and see if the outcome is any different.
It took Chandler damn near 10 years and a championship roster to become a defensive anchor, And guys like Noah came into a pretty good roster and got better with experience. Hibbert looked like **** in his sophomore year with a playoff team as well.

[bakesale]

ok

How about this?
Bogut went to warriors surrounded by d lee (horrible defender), Barnes a rookie whose defence was average at best, klay was getting better but not great like he is now and curry who was also a horrible defender. They didn't have iggy at the time and yet the warriors went from 29th in defence to 7th in the league.
Look at when Dallas had chandler they weren't a great defence but with a great defensive anchor they had just enough to beat Miami. Yes they played some zone but i guarantee they wouldn't have beaten Miami without chandler.
2 eg of great defensive centres who had to play alongside average to terrible defenders

The fact that your comparing a 20 year old center to guys on established teams with many more years experience is comical. Lets put 20 year old version of Chandler, Bogut or even Noah on this roster with no coach and see if the outcome is any different.
It took Chandler damn near 10 years and a championship roster to become a defensive anchor, And guys like Noah came into a pretty good roster and got better with experience. Hibbert looked like **** in his sophomore year with a playoff team as well.

Ok dwight Howard was a defensive beast from day dot.

It looks to me like Drummond's problems are more to do with iq more so than anything. Hell of a physical specimen though.

[Q00]

ok

How about this?
Bogut went to warriors surrounded by d lee (horrible defender), Barnes a rookie whose defence was average at best, klay was getting better but not great like he is now and curry who was also a horrible defender. They didn't have iggy at the time and yet the warriors went from 29th in defence to 7th in the league.
Look at when Dallas had chandler they weren't a great defence but with a great defensive anchor they had just enough to beat Miami. Yes they played some zone but i guarantee they wouldn't have beaten Miami without chandler.
2 eg of great defensive centres who had to play alongside average to terrible defenders

Again, you are confusing individual defense with team defense. All those players you mentioned might be poor individual defenders, but they learned how to be good enough team defenders to make the system work, and learned it from good coaching. Jackson is a good defensive coach. Carlisle is a great defensive coach.

Obviously when you have a great defensive Center like Bogut or Chandler, they are the centerpiece with which the system is built around, but like I said it still takes more than that for the whole machine to function. All the guys around him have to be smart and know the rotations and everything, and it takes good coaching and discipline to learn it. Both those teams have all those ingredients and that's why it works.

The Pistons don't have any disiciplined players around Drummond that know how to play good team defense, and they have no good coach to teach them either. So I stand by what I said and you can look at the Knicks as an example of what I mean. The same Chandler who won a championship as the defensive Center for Dallas is now surrounded by a bunch of lazy, undisciplined players in the New York with an undisciplined coach and the Knicks defense is just that - lazy and undisciplined. Chandler is still the same player capable of leading a great defense, but when they players around him aren't buying into the system, and the coach can't get them to buy in, then you end up with what they have instead.

[bakesale]

ok

How about this?
Bogut went to warriors surrounded by d lee (horrible defender), Barnes a rookie whose defence was average at best, klay was getting better but not great like he is now and curry who was also a horrible defender. They didn't have iggy at the time and yet the warriors went from 29th in defence to 7th in the league.
Look at when Dallas had chandler they weren't a great defence but with a great defensive anchor they had just enough to beat Miami. Yes they played some zone but i guarantee they wouldn't have beaten Miami without chandler.
2 eg of great defensive centres who had to play alongside average to terrible defenders

Again, you are confusing individual defense with team defense. All those players you mentioned might be poor individual defenders, but they learned how to be good enough team defenders to make the system work, and learned it from good coaching. Jackson is a good defensive coach. Carlisle is a great defensive coach.

Obviously when you have a great defensive Center like Bogut or Chandler, they are the centerpiece with which the system is built around, but like I said it still takes more than that for the whole machine to function. All the guys around him have to be smart and know the rotations and everything, and it takes good coaching and discipline to learn it. Both those teams have all those ingredients and that's why it works.

The Pistons don't have any disiciplined players around Drummond that know how to play good team defense, and they have no good coach to teach them either. So I stand by what I said and you can look at the Knicks as an example of what I mean. The same Chandler who won a championship as the defensive Center for Dallas is now surrounded by a bunch of lazy, undisciplined players in the New York with an undisciplined coach and the Knicks defense is just that - lazy and undisciplined. Chandler is still the same player capable of leading a great defense, but when they players around him aren't buying into the system, and the coach can't get them to buy in, then you end up with what they have instead.

New York's 2 best defensive players Chandler and Iman Shumpert missed half the season. Since Chandler has been back in the lineup they've at least got a chance of making the playoffs. I can't prove it of course but I bet if they were both there the whole year they would've been a lock for the playoffs rather than fighting for a playoff position.

As for the Pistons Josh Smith and Jennings are both capable defenders and come from teams that were solid defensively. From what I've seen Rodney Stuckey ain't a bad defender either. But regardless of your situation, based on observation and I'm not 100% sure as I haven't watched him ALL season but made it a point to study him the times I did watch him he just seemed a bit lost, a bit dumb and maybe even a bit lazy at times. Sure a Thibedeau or a Skiles kind of coach might be able to force him to work hard but there's no cure for stupid. Again, I'm sorry if I come across as harsh, I'm not trying to insult the guy. Seriously I was just trying to figure out why a guy has such great numbers and yet the team doesn't perform well defensively. Yes poor coaching/system but also poor individual defence. I promise I'm not a hater, I want him to do well. I miss the days in the NBA when true centres used to dominate and I hope he figures it out so we can see a renaissance of big men.

[BadMofoPimp]

Dwight Howard was a fouling machine day one. it took him a two years to develop. But, he did have Rivers then SVG coachign him.

[Clarity]

Dwight Howard was a fouling machine day one. it took him a two years to develop. But, he did have Rivers then SVG coachign him.

This

Drummond at 20 right now is far superior to Dwight at 20.

& Dwight was fed on offense when he entered the league, 85% of Drummond's stats are created by his own hustle.

It's remarkable

[BadMofoPimp]

Dwight Howard was a fouling machine day one. it took him a two years to develop. But, he did have Rivers then SVG coachign him.

This

Drummond at 20 right now is far superior to Dwight at 20.

& Dwight was fed on offense when he entered the league, 85% of Drummond's stats are created by his own hustle.

It's remarkable

Being I was in Orlando for Dwights rookie season and went to many games, Dwight had to earn his points the hard way just like Drummond. Put backs and grabbing boards. Thus, they are fairly close. I think Dwight's handle was worse than Drummonds. They both have their strengths and weaknesses at this age. The key is how much they work to improve each year. Dwight was a Gym rat and worked hard at his game because he always stated he wanted to be the best. Drummond just needs to learn to self-motivate himself the same way.

[Q00]

ok

How about this?
Bogut went to warriors surrounded by d lee (horrible defender), Barnes a rookie whose defence was average at best, klay was getting better but not great like he is now and curry who was also a horrible defender. They didn't have iggy at the time and yet the warriors went from 29th in defence to 7th in the league.
Look at when Dallas had chandler they weren't a great defence but with a great defensive anchor they had just enough to beat Miami. Yes they played some zone but i guarantee they wouldn't have beaten Miami without chandler.
2 eg of great defensive centres who had to play alongside average to terrible defenders

Again, you are confusing individual defense with team defense. All those players you mentioned might be poor individual defenders, but they learned how to be good enough team defenders to make the system work, and learned it from good coaching. Jackson is a good defensive coach. Carlisle is a great defensive coach.

Obviously when you have a great defensive Center like Bogut or Chandler, they are the centerpiece with which the system is built around, but like I said it still takes more than that for the whole machine to function. All the guys around him have to be smart and know the rotations and everything, and it takes good coaching and discipline to learn it. Both those teams have all those ingredients and that's why it works.

The Pistons don't have any disiciplined players around Drummond that know how to play good team defense, and they have no good coach to teach them either. So I stand by what I said and you can look at the Knicks as an example of what I mean. The same Chandler who won a championship as the defensive Center for Dallas is now surrounded by a bunch of lazy, undisciplined players in the New York with an undisciplined coach and the Knicks defense is just that - lazy and undisciplined. Chandler is still the same player capable of leading a great defense, but when they players around him aren't buying into the system, and the coach can't get them to buy in, then you end up with what they have instead.

New York's 2 best defensive players Chandler and Iman Shumpert missed half the season. Since Chandler has been back in the lineup they've at least got a chance of making the playoffs. I can't prove it of course but I bet if they were both there the whole year they would've been a lock for the playoffs rather than fighting for a playoff position.

As for the Pistons Josh Smith and Jennings are both capable defenders and come from teams that were solid defensively. From what I've seen Rodney Stuckey ain't a bad defender either. But regardless of your situation, based on observation and I'm not 100% sure as I haven't watched him ALL season but made it a point to study him the times I did watch him he just seemed a bit lost, a bit dumb and maybe even a bit lazy at times. Sure a Thibedeau or a Skiles kind of coach might be able to force him to work hard but there's no cure for stupid. Again, I'm sorry if I come across as harsh, I'm not trying to insult the guy. Seriously I was just trying to figure out why a guy has such great numbers and yet the team doesn't perform well defensively. Yes poor coaching/system but also poor individual defence. I promise I'm not a hater, I want him to do well. I miss the days in the NBA when true centres used to dominate and I hope he figures it out so we can see a renaissance of big men.

Why do you keep asking me the same question, if you aren't willing to accept my answer?

I told you the reason why the Pistons defense is bad. If you don't agree and have your own opinion already formed then why are you asking me what I think?

You don't have to apologize for having an opinion. However you are starting to get annoying asking me the same thing over and over, because I can only tell you the same answer so many times.

[Clarity]

Being I was in Orlando for Dwights rookie season and went to many games, Dwight had to earn his points the hard way just like Drummond. Put backs and grabbing boards. Thus, they are fairly close. I think Dwight's handle was worse than Drummonds. They both have their strengths and weaknesses at this age. The key is how much they work to improve each year. Dwight was a Gym rat and worked hard at his game because he always stated he wanted to be the best. Drummond just needs to learn to self-motivate himself the same way.

I watched a gang of young Dwight games too, he certainly got touches, Drummond gets maybe 2 a week.

Not at all concerned about Drummond's work ethic, his work ethic is off the charts, he's literally improved night & day from his rookie year with really no help aside from Sheed. His teammates have basically ignored him on the floor & he's still shown this type of improvement from year 1 to year 2.

You are right about Dwight being motivated in Orlando, miss that guy, he is long gone now. Sadly

[bakesale]

Again, you are confusing individual defense with team defense. All those players you mentioned might be poor individual defenders, but they learned how to be good enough team defenders to make the system work, and learned it from good coaching. Jackson is a good defensive coach. Carlisle is a great defensive coach.

Obviously when you have a great defensive Center like Bogut or Chandler, they are the centerpiece with which the system is built around, but like I said it still takes more than that for the whole machine to function. All the guys around him have to be smart and know the rotations and everything, and it takes good coaching and discipline to learn it. Both those teams have all those ingredients and that's why it works.

The Pistons don't have any disiciplined players around Drummond that know how to play good team defense, and they have no good coach to teach them either. So I stand by what I said and you can look at the Knicks as an example of what I mean. The same Chandler who won a championship as the defensive Center for Dallas is now surrounded by a bunch of lazy, undisciplined players in the New York with an undisciplined coach and the Knicks defense is just that - lazy and undisciplined. Chandler is still the same player capable of leading a great defense, but when they players around him aren't buying into the system, and the coach can't get them to buy in, then you end up with what they have instead.

New York's 2 best defensive players Chandler and Iman Shumpert missed half the season. Since Chandler has been back in the lineup they've at least got a chance of making the playoffs. I can't prove it of course but I bet if they were both there the whole year they would've been a lock for the playoffs rather than fighting for a playoff position.

As for the Pistons Josh Smith and Jennings are both capable defenders and come from teams that were solid defensively. From what I've seen Rodney Stuckey ain't a bad defender either. But regardless of your situation, based on observation and I'm not 100% sure as I haven't watched him ALL season but made it a point to study him the times I did watch him he just seemed a bit lost, a bit dumb and maybe even a bit lazy at times. Sure a Thibedeau or a Skiles kind of coach might be able to force him to work hard but there's no cure for stupid. Again, I'm sorry if I come across as harsh, I'm not trying to insult the guy. Seriously I was just trying to figure out why a guy has such great numbers and yet the team doesn't perform well defensively. Yes poor coaching/system but also poor individual defence. I promise I'm not a hater, I want him to do well. I miss the days in the NBA when true centres used to dominate and I hope he figures it out so we can see a renaissance of big men.

Why do you keep asking me the same question, if you aren't willing to accept my answer?

I told you the reason why the Pistons defense is bad. If you don't agree and have your own opinion already formed then why are you asking me what I think?

You don't have to apologize for having an opinion. However you are starting to get annoying asking me the same thing over and over, because I can only tell you the same answer so many times.

Well you said the pistons didn't have any players who knew team defence to which I pointed out that you have several... Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Back on topic though, I'll just state that I don't think Drummond has enough basketball iq to be able to control the paint like Howard can and I'll leave it at that. I actually hope I'm wrong in this instance, I'd love to see more rivalries built through the big man match ups.

[Q00]

New York's 2 best defensive players Chandler and Iman Shumpert missed half the season. Since Chandler has been back in the lineup they've at least got a chance of making the playoffs. I can't prove it of course but I bet if they were both there the whole year they would've been a lock for the playoffs rather than fighting for a playoff position.

As for the Pistons Josh Smith and Jennings are both capable defenders and come from teams that were solid defensively. From what I've seen Rodney Stuckey ain't a bad defender either. But regardless of your situation, based on observation and I'm not 100% sure as I haven't watched him ALL season but made it a point to study him the times I did watch him he just seemed a bit lost, a bit dumb and maybe even a bit lazy at times. Sure a Thibedeau or a Skiles kind of coach might be able to force him to work hard but there's no cure for stupid. Again, I'm sorry if I come across as harsh, I'm not trying to insult the guy. Seriously I was just trying to figure out why a guy has such great numbers and yet the team doesn't perform well defensively. Yes poor coaching/system but also poor individual defence. I promise I'm not a hater, I want him to do well. I miss the days in the NBA when true centres used to dominate and I hope he figures it out so we can see a renaissance of big men.

Why do you keep asking me the same question, if you aren't willing to accept my answer?

I told you the reason why the Pistons defense is bad. If you don't agree and have your own opinion already formed then why are you asking me what I think?

You don't have to apologize for having an opinion. However you are starting to get annoying asking me the same thing over and over, because I can only tell you the same answer so many times.

Well you said the pistons didn't have any players who knew team defence to which I pointed out that you have several... Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I said the Pistons didn't have good team defenders around him and also didn't have a good defensive coach, and that you needed both to have a good defense.

You are wrong if you think those players you suggested have been good team defenders this year.

To your comment about Howard and protecting the paint, here are both of their stats defending the rim this year:

Opp FGM at Rim per game

Howard: 4.3
Drummond: 4.1

Opp FGA at Rim per game

Howard: 8.9
Drummond: 8.2

Opp FG% at Rim

Howard: 48%
Drummond: 50%

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefe ... PerPage=25

Here's his defensive stats vs his teammates



Make of that whatever you want.

[tmorgan]

C'mon, this is just some guy trying to inject some juice into a JV/Dre rivalry by ragging on Drummond's defense.

Yes, Drummond isn't a very good help or team defender yet. I wouldn't say he's bad, and having guys like Jennings and Monroe to cover for certainly doesn't help, but he definitely has a long, long way to go if he wants to be an elite defender.

Happy? Does that make you feel better? Does it cover up the fact that the guy that a majority of Toronto fans thought was as good as Drummond is averaging 10.7 and 8.6 with a PER of 15, while Drummond is averaging 13.0 and 12.8 with a PER of 22?

Quit stirring the pot, enjoy your much improved team (props for developing Amir Johnson correctly), and live with the fact that our center is a future superstar, while yours is a future star. You'll live.

[wallace72]

C'mon, this is just some guy trying to inject some juice into a JV/Dre rivalry by ragging on Drummond's defense.

Yes, Drummond isn't a very good help or team defender yet. I wouldn't say he's bad, and having guys like Jennings and Monroe to cover for certainly doesn't help, but he definitely has a long, long way to go if he wants to be an elite defender.

Happy? Does that make you feel better? Does it cover up the fact that the guy that a majority of Toronto fans thought was as good as Drummond is averaging 10.7 and 8.6 with a PER of 15, while Drummond is averaging 13.0 and 12.8 with a PER of 22?

Quit stirring the pot, enjoy your much improved team (props for developing Amir Johnson correctly), and live with the fact that our center is a future superstar, while yours is a future star. You'll live.

It is what it is:

Raptors are limited in growing as a team.
Pistons are unlimited in growing as a team, it can't be worse
just get rid off the morons over here.
I'll take pistons future over raptors future any day off the week.