Heats cohesiveness without Wade

[Tim_Hardawayy]

But Wade WAS injured last year in the playoffs, this has been documented over and over again, its the whole reason he's getting as much rest as he is now. So pointing to how the Heat performed with him playing through injury last year as proof that he hurts us when he's at his best is extremely disingenuous.

Again though, this thread was started because we are crushing lottery teams that are actively trying as hard as possible to tank, and our offense hasn't even looked good these past few games, that's the funniest part of all this!

[WD]

^They completely discount or want to forget the injury part

[DWadeno3]

Really? The only real benefit with Wade you see is bail-out isos and some backdoor cuts? I don't know how many games you watch or what you're paying attention to when you're watching, but Wade is often enough the cause of ball movement for us.

---

The worst part in all of this the overreaction coming from a few regular season games against some of the worst teams in the league where LeBron didn't even have to score 20 for us to win.

i think you're being a little impartial towards wade and misconstrued some of my comments. i said he was a great player and recognized that his ability to iso, move off ball, defend and dominate on the fastbreak were all beneficial to the team. i wasn't saying that the team is better off without him, but if you replaced him with a player that had similar tendencies (could create for themselves, defend, etc.) and had legitimate three-point range it would be better for the team, even if that player was overall less talented than wade. the team would absolutely be worse off if we lost him for nothing.

i watch many heat games and didn't appreciate you implying that i don't watch or know how to recognize what the heat are doing on the court...

i also didn't appreciate you assuming that i had posted my opinion based on their recent victories over lottery teams. i was basing my post on from what I've seen against the better (smarter) defensive teams, specifically in the playoffs. the bulls, pacers and spurs all have the ability both in personnel and coaching to pack the paint (the bulls' wall) and still do a good job recovering on the perimeter. there were countless times last year in the playoffs against these teams where the ball would get swung around to wade and the ball stopped because he couldn't shoot it and the defense had closed out so he couldn't really penetrate. the entire offense essentially had to reset. it was borderline debilitating to the offense and the heat's best lineups were consistently with LeBron and bosh or Andersen to go with the shooters.

this was all on my observations from last year (but who knows what i was paying attention to) so i looked to the numbers for some support. i'll post like this: team offensive rating/wade's offensive rating

CHI series - 114/103
IND series - 112/103
SAS series - 109/104

the offense consistently scored more points (per 100 possessions) when wade was not on the floor.

And now you're committing a colossal mistake, taking examples of several playoff series where Wade in general was playing clearly far under his level due to his injury. If your knee is injured in basketball, you're pretty much f***ed. You can't attack in any way, not even post up because you can't put pressure on your knee, you can forget about any sort of explosive moves to create space and you can definitely forget about your jump shot because you won't have any lift. Now with all that being said, those smart teams gave Wade space to shoot, fully well knowing he couldn't do that well due to being hampered. In the two games in the Finals he shot the ball at a solid rate (nothing even out of the ordinary), we won.
And let's not forget that LeBron wasn't shooting the ball well either, mainly due to fatigue I suppose.

So with your entire text, you've still not proven that a healthy Wade without a three-point shot is so detrimental. Even if he had a three-point shot, when your knee is ****, long-range shooting is definitely gonna be gone because you need good lift for that.

Now if we wanna talk about Wade's long-term health concerns as an issue, that's legitimate. If you wanna talk about him adding a three-point shot, that's legitimate as well. But please stop this bulls*** about him suddenly being a bad fit or a ballstopper or anything of that regard. We've had extremely efficient offenses every year since the Big Three era, if not the best one in the league and despite everything, have not only won two titles, but managed to overcome plenty of adversity (people underestimate how huge Chris Bosh's injury in the 2012 playoffs was) on the way to it.

[toodles23]

The Indiana series, OKC series and Winning streak stretch was mentioned but you guys all forget how Wade and LeBron destroyed Boston, posting nearly identical stats. Remember this:

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/21 ... d-For-Heat


So no you can't just say a Wade/LeBron tandem dominating is an anomaly.

It's funny to see people even try and suggest that Lebron would be better with just shooters, that's why people scream "agenda".

People have short memories, it takes more than just one dominant player to win series in the playoffs this era, we saw it with LeBron in Cleveland get dismantled by the BIG 3-4 in Boston each year, Durant got completely fatigued in the latter half of the playoffs last year with no Westbrook. It's the main reason why they decided to team up, they can't do it alone.

Looks may be deceiving, outside of the finals last year the Heat have a better on/off stats with Wade + LeBron on the floor. The way LeBron and Wade were so inconsistent in jumpers made it obvious as to why they were struggling together in the series alongside the fact that Wade was playing on one knee. We all saw what happened when both of them made their jumpers consistently in game 7.

So what's the key to an easier playoff run? A healthy Wade, thought we all knew this.

Wade and Lebron dominating together in the postseason might not be an anomaly, but it's not been the norm at all. Since the big 3 have gotten together, there's been three series where they've both played like superstars together: the 2011 Philly series, the 2011 Celtics series, and the last 3 games of the 2012 Pacers series. Wade's health is the biggest reason for this the last two years of course, but I don't think you can ignore the fact that even when they were both healthy and in their primes in 2011, they each had a series where they struggled big time while the other went off (Wade struggling in the '11 ECF, Bron in the 2011 Finals).

This isn't an LBJ vs. Wade thing at all, it's just an acknowledgement of the fact that both guys play such extremely similar styles and are about as far from an ideal fit as two superstars can get.

[Sign5]

The Indiana series, OKC series and Winning streak stretch was mentioned but you guys all forget how Wade and LeBron destroyed Boston, posting nearly identical stats. Remember this:

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/21 ... d-For-Heat


So no you can't just say a Wade/LeBron tandem dominating is an anomaly.

It's funny to see people even try and suggest that Lebron would be better with just shooters, that's why people scream "agenda".

People have short memories, it takes more than just one dominant player to win series in the playoffs this era, we saw it with LeBron in Cleveland get dismantled by the BIG 3-4 in Boston each year, Durant got completely fatigued in the latter half of the playoffs last year with no Westbrook. It's the main reason why they decided to team up, they can't do it alone.

Looks may be deceiving, outside of the finals last year the Heat have a better on/off stats with Wade + LeBron on the floor. The way LeBron and Wade were so inconsistent in jumpers made it obvious as to why they were struggling together in the series alongside the fact that Wade was playing on one knee. We all saw what happened when both of them made their jumpers consistently in game 7.

So what's the key to an easier playoff run? A healthy Wade, thought we all knew this.

Wade and Lebron dominating together in the postseason might not be an anomaly, but it's not been the norm at all. Since the big 3 have gotten together, there's been three series where they've both played like superstars together: the 2011 Philly series, the 2011 Celtics series, and the last 3 games of the 2012 Pacers series. Wade's health is the biggest reason for this the last two years of course, but I don't think you can ignore the fact that even when they were both healthy and in their primes in 2011, they each had a series where they struggled big time while the other went off (Wade struggling in the '11 ECF, Bron in the 2011 Finals).

This isn't an LBJ vs. Wade thing at all, it's just an acknowledgement of the fact that both guys play such extremely similar styles and are about as far from an ideal fit as two superstars can get.

You pretty much answered why they weren't dominant for more series. The BIGGEST reason for less dominance is due to Wade's health. Wade historically struggles against the Bulls and I think we can all agree Bron's woes in 2011 were mental, if he had the same mindset in 2012 then the Heat win in 5 that finals.

Wade is just injury prone partly due to his early mistake in College, so people seem to forget how great these guys are together too often. LeBron winning without Wade doesn't mean the Heat don't need Wade or are better without, it illustrates more on how great LeBron is. However, a healthy Wade makes the team better overall.

[whitehops]

This isn't an LBJ vs. Wade thing at all, it's just an acknowledgement of the fact that both guys play such extremely similar styles and are about as far from an ideal fit as two superstars can get.

i'm with this guy. I personally think wade's value to the team is by far the highest when LeBron is not on the floor and can take over the 'LeBron role'.

[CeCeySay]

Actually....what I was trying to initially get at was saying that the cohesiveness with Bron, Bosh, Bird & 2 3-pt shooters looks pretty effective. In no way am I saying we shouldn't play Wade. As I said, we all know the kind of 2 way player he is. I'm just suggesting that when he's sitting, those 5 on the court looks very fluid & that would be a good 5 to have. (Ray & JJ as the 2 shooters). Bird & Bosh can protect the basket for the defensive breakdowns Ray & JJ may allow. I want Wade playing, as much as he can. But we have to consider the realization that he may tweak something in the playoffs, miss a game, & I'd like to see us prepared with 5 men on the court that gel nicely. Even as someone earlier noted, that spacing even allowed Bosh to take his man off the dribble and go to the basket more often (I do realize the teams we played, just saying).

[Sorkoram]

What? Wade doesn't need the ball in his hands because he's very good at moving without the ball. If a team is daring you to shoot, then yeah, a shooter helps more, but the Spurs dared LeBron to shoot just as much as they dared Wade to shoot. With that being said, they're both good enough midrange jump shooters to ignore the lack of 3-ball in Wade's arsenal in favor of all his other skills.

Wade is cutting because he isn't the trigger in those sets (if you even want to call them that). If LeBron or Chalmers are in the PnR, Wade is on the wing and he cuts when his man overplays. IF Wade is healthy, he is getting a ton of PnRs himself, so his offball game isn't as much of a necessity since he is getting into the lane himself.

Yes, he is very good at moving without the ball, but he had to emphasize that portion of his game because he can't live above the rim anymore, break defenders down on ISO's, and his jumper isn't anywhere near consistent (by volume) as it used to be.

Wade wasn't running the 1 and getting those picks at the top of the key/elbow as much vs the Spurs because of his ailments, so that took away a large portion of his game. His jumper also wasn't going due to his ailments. Pop didn't have to do much against Wade, but bring a help defender from the baseline and go under his screens.

What has changed is his health has been much better this season, resulting in midrange game coming back. He has been able to attack the paint off PnRs, get out on the break, and teams have had to respect his midrange game. Last season they sagged off heavily during the playoffs and it hurt the spacing.

If people want to reference 11-12 vs the Pacers, the Wade-Bron pick and roll was absolutely devastating, teams couldn't defend that.

I'm not saying Wade should come off the bench unless he isn't healthy, but as I said previously, I don't expect that to be the case working with Grover.

[HIF]

People writing Wade off again. When will you learn?

[Heat3]

I'm sure Wade will play ok in the playoffs, but there needs to be a change soon. Hopefully this summer. A $20M/yr block of our cap is far too often on the bench in a suit. The side effect is Lebron is getting the Ricky Williams treatment and being run into the ground.

[Flash4thewin]

We need Wade healthy and more importantly we need Wade to play better than how he played against Pacers last game. A rested Wade playing to par with Lance Stephenson is a wash. Wade needs to out perform him come playoff time

[narmerguy]

...I just want Wade to be healthy. Let's be real, Wade will be here until he retires. This whole discussion is pointless because he'll always get playing time and he obviously will play with our best units until the wheels have totally come off. I just want him to be healthy so he can play his best, whatever that may be.