Worst GM according to ESPN?

[theBigLip]

A tidbit on improving the Pistons from an article today:

On that note, make a decision on the big frontcourt. Without elite shooting at every other position (not to mention a leap in spacing ability from either Josh Smith or Greg Monroe) or a massive defensive upgrade, this probably isn't going to work well. Hollins made a big frontcourt work in Memphis, but he also had elite defenders at point guard, shooting guard and center. Although Smith is older than Monroe, from this point on, he's probably going to be the cheaper option: $40.5 million remaining over three years versus what Monroe will probably fetch in free agency (somewhere approaching max of about $60 million over four years). Additionally, at the moment, Smith is the better fit alongside Andre Drummond. Smith is a better perimeter shooter (marginally), more versatile defender and (perhaps most important for the psyche of Drummond) not a center.

[Sheeeeed]

He didn't get lucky. He had a HOF owner guiding him. Its no coincidence that the moment Mr D passed, a lot of his moves from then on have been poor.

Seems like a coincidence to me. All this was set in motion with the Billups/Iverson trade before Davidson died.

You don't just go from being greatest GM in the league for the 2000s to one of the worst in the 2010s. That doesn't just happen. What happened was he went from having a HOF owner in the 00s to a lady with no business experience at all in Karen for 3 years after, and then a guy with no sports business experience in Gores for the past 3 years since.

Oh it does happen. Theres always changes in sports, and if you can't identify those changes you're going to end up out of a job evidentially.

Its also no coincidence that most of those GMs at the top of that list have owners who were at the top of the owners rankings too.

Joe is a good GM. He's not an owner though. And for the past 5-6 years he's basically been asked to do both, as the people who were supposed to be doing it have been absentees. I think they just put too much responsibility on him. Before, he had total faith/trust that Mr. D and Tom Wilson would keep the ship running smoothly, allowing him to just focus on basketball. Who knows what kind of setup they have going there now. I know Gores is never even there. What the heck does Dennis Mannion do?

So its not just Joe that changed. Its been a poorly run franchise above him for years now, and I'm not trying to make excuses for him, but its hard for any GM to succeed when the management above you is incompetent. Its just not the same franchise anymore.

How exactly has Dumars been asked to be both GM/Owner?

Davidson was practically on his death bed at the time of that trade, as he had been in declining health for a while before he died. He didn't just suddenly die one day out of the blue. So to imply Joe had the same HOF version of Davidson there at that time is a bit of a reach.

You bring up a good point though that Joe has actually been operating without a competent owner since even before Davidson died. As he had been sick for a while leading up to that.

If you don't think owners matter in sports, take a look at what happened in LA. Did Kupchak suddenly become a bad GM too after winning two championships, or did his HOF owner die and leave him to steer a rudderless ship?

At least Kupchak still has Jeanie Buss there on a daily basis to help him. Where's Joe's help from the top been? It certainly wasn't Karen for 3 years. Gores is never there. He leaves Joe there to do his job for him. The Pistons haven't had a real owner there on a daily basis for over 6 years now.

Oh owners do matter, but the whole basis of your argument seems to be Davidson was a hall of fame owner, yet you have no evidence he ever had a hand in strong presence in the front office while Joe has been GM telling who to sign or not to sign because of their talent..

The Lakers aren't bad because Buss died, they're bad because they got old, and injury prone. Not to mention theres the failed Paul trade, and Howard wanting nothing to do with Kobe and D'Antoin. That's what has really hurt them. Comparing the current Pistons to the Lakers is apples and oranges. Decisions by other people that Kupchak had no say in hurt the Lakers

[DonVitoReturns]

I'm still working under the assumption that Dumars got lucky.

"Who the hell is Ben Wallace? He's good? You promise? Okay here have Grant Hill"

"Rasheed Wallace? Well he's got the same last name as that other guy and Orlando said he was good, sure I'll trade for him"

"Everyone says I should hire Larry Brown as coach, even Larry Brown. I know I already have a good coach but everyone says this Brown guy is good, even himself"

He didn't get lucky. He had a HOF owner guiding him. Its no coincidence that the moment Mr D passed, a lot of his moves from then on have been poor.

You don't just go from being greatest GM in the league for the 2000s to one of the worst in the 2010s. That doesn't just happen. What happened was he went from having a HOF owner in the 00s to a lady with no business experience at all in Karen for 3 years after, and then a guy with no sports business experience in Gores for the past 3 years since.

Its also no coincidence that most of those GMs at the top of that list have owners who were at the top of the owners rankings too.

Joe is a good GM. He's not an owner though. And for the past 5-6 years he's basically been asked to do both, as the people who were supposed to be doing it have been absentees. I think they just put too much responsibility on him. Before, he had total faith/trust that Mr. D and Tom Wilson would keep the ship running smoothly, allowing him to just focus on basketball. Who knows what kind of setup they have going there now. I know Gores is never even there. What the heck does Dennis Mannion do?

So its not just Joe that changed. Its been a poorly run franchise above him for years now, and I'm not trying to make excuses for him, but its hard for any GM to succeed when the management above you is incompetent. Its just not the same franchise anymore.

agree with the overriding thought that it starts from the top down. Dumars shoulders a lot of blame, but it starts at the top.

[ChainLink]

I think it's way too harsh to put him as the worst. Should he be in the bottom half? Definitely. But dead last? The man won this team a championship as GM and was very close to going back to back. Even if it was ten years ago, that has to count for something. You can't be considered the worst if on your resume you have a title and your teams were serious contenders for the good part of the last decade. Especially since half of that management names on their list has barely been on the job for a year or two, and haven't really made any great moves.

And yes, I'm frustrated as anyone with the last 5 years...but like others have said in this thread, his hands were kind of tied with Karen and Gores. Plus, he did draft Moose and Drummond, and with a probable #7/8 pick this year, some decent salary cap space going forward...Joe will be leaving us with a relatively bright future. His replacement needs to get rid of Smith and we're golden.

Honestly the Pistons and Knicks should have swapped spots (Det at #21, NYK at #30). New York just got a bump in their grade because they just hired Phil Jackson, but he hasn't done anything yet. Dumars at least has a proven track record. The Knicks' front office is the epitome of instability. They'll be looking for a new coach after this season too. And (most likely) we get to keep our lotto pick this year, Knicks have to give it up to Denver. Oh, and they're way over the cap with overpaid vets and there's a real chance they lose Melo. The only thing they have going for them is Tim Hardaway Jr.

[theBigLip]

Chainlink- you're probably right - last is a bit harsh, but to redo the CV/BG mistake with BJ/JS deserves serious punishment. Off with his head! (Getting ready for Game of Thrones)

[JD43320]

This sums up how Joe has spent the last 6 years putting a roster together.

[Q00]

A tidbit on improving the Pistons from an article today:

On that note, make a decision on the big frontcourt. Without elite shooting at every other position (not to mention a leap in spacing ability from either Josh Smith or Greg Monroe) or a massive defensive upgrade, this probably isn't going to work well. Hollins made a big frontcourt work in Memphis, but he also had elite defenders at point guard, shooting guard and center. Although Smith is older than Monroe, from this point on, he's probably going to be the cheaper option: $40.5 million remaining over three years versus what Monroe will probably fetch in free agency (somewhere approaching max of about $60 million over four years). Additionally, at the moment, Smith is the better fit alongside Andre Drummond. Smith is a better perimeter shooter (marginally), more versatile defender and (perhaps most important for the psyche of Drummond) not a center.

What article is this from?

[imagump1313]

He didn't get lucky. He had a HOF owner guiding him. Its no coincidence that the moment Mr D passed, a lot of his moves from then on have been poor.

You don't just go from being greatest GM in the league for the 2000s to one of the worst in the 2010s. That doesn't just happen. What happened was he went from having a HOF owner in the 00s to a lady with no business experience at all in Karen for 3 years after, and then a guy with no sports business experience in Gores for the past 3 years since.

Its also no coincidence that most of those GMs at the top of that list have owners who were at the top of the owners rankings too.

Joe is a good GM. He's not an owner though. And for the past 5-6 years he's basically been asked to do both, as the people who were supposed to be doing it have been absentees. I think they just put too much responsibility on him. Before, he had total faith/trust that Mr. D and Tom Wilson would keep the ship running smoothly, allowing him to just focus on basketball. Who knows what kind of setup they have going there now. I know Gores is never even there. What the heck does Dennis Mannion do?

So its not just Joe that changed. Its been a poorly run franchise above him for years now, and I'm not trying to make excuses for him, but its hard for any GM to succeed when the management above you is incompetent. Its just not the same franchise anymore.

Two great responses on this forum in one day! Things are looking up! I second what you're saying. Joe's problems started when everything else crumbled around him. Joe's definitely made some dumb moves, but his supporting cast is gone. He needs someone capable to bounce ideas off of. I will actually be glad for him when he leaves. There is nothing left for him here with this ownership anyway.

[theBigLip]

A tidbit on improving the Pistons from an article today:

On that note, make a decision on the big frontcourt. Without elite shooting at every other position (not to mention a leap in spacing ability from either Josh Smith or Greg Monroe) or a massive defensive upgrade, this probably isn't going to work well. Hollins made a big frontcourt work in Memphis, but he also had elite defenders at point guard, shooting guard and center. Although Smith is older than Monroe, from this point on, he's probably going to be the cheaper option: $40.5 million remaining over three years versus what Monroe will probably fetch in free agency (somewhere approaching max of about $60 million over four years). Additionally, at the moment, Smith is the better fit alongside Andre Drummond. Smith is a better perimeter shooter (marginally), more versatile defender and (perhaps most important for the psyche of Drummond) not a center.

What article is this from?

It is an insider...

[ImHeisenberg]

A tidbit on improving the Pistons from an article today:

What article is this from?

It is an insider...

I can see the points the author made there. Do you take Smith's terrible shot selection and awful attitude? Or, Monroe's lack of effort on defense and mediocre shooting?

It really isn't a win-win scenario either way. I can't say I love either outcome.

[theBigLip]

What article is this from?

It is an insider...

I can see the points the author made there. Do you take Smith's terrible shot selection and awful attitude? Or, Monroe's lack of effort on defense and mediocre shooting?

It really isn't a win-win scenario either way. I can't say I love either outcome.

Agreed. One thing is clear, once Monroe gets his new contract, we will have waaaayyy too much salary at the PF position. Really need to move one of these guys and spend some of this money on some quality wing players. If we had great outside shooting SG and SF, I think the warts on Smith and Jennings would diminish substantially. They wouldn't be taking bad shots if they had great shooters to pass to.

[Grammer Nazi]

You either die a hero, or stay long enough after 2009 to see yourself become Joe Dumars.