Official Trade Thread - Part XXVII

[stevemcqueen1]

And Steve, that last paragraph surmises my worry. How many seasons have we started "knowing" that some team should be a contender because on paper it says they should only to discover that the personalities don't blend, or that the "leaders" of the team can't keep it together.

We have a young team and a foundational piece who twice had to have a talking to to get his head readjusted. You think putting a player with all the red flag personality traits next to Wall is what championship teams are built on? I wonder. And I worry especially because those situations seem to fail much more than succeed.

All I'm saying is if you get Love (somehow), you better think long and hard about getting that third piece (rim protector/leader/tough guy). Because that addition will be just as critical to success as getting Love.

Eh, I think Wall has always had his head on right. Having some locker room frustrations spring up in the media during the ebb and flow of a season is minor and different from Love's situation. Wall is progressively maturing too. It probably wouldn't worry me that much if Kevin Love was here and every now and then bitched about his touches after frustrating games. When the culture became good, our locker room issues have always blown over, even last year when we lost a ton.

It would worry me if he played selfishly and/or turned the locker room on him though.

Our big men have to be willing to play traditional, gritty big men ball though. Gortat talked about accepting that change in role now that he's here. It's one of the many reasons I think he's such a good fit here. Love would have to do it too, to a lesser extent.

That's what I find kind of hard to envision. Sometimes a change of scenery makes all the difference though. I would love it if he came here and bought in, his skills are awesome. But I would want it to happen through free agency so we're only risking money and his contract situation would be long term.

Finding the right mix of role players to go with him would be secondary. If the intangible and chemical situation is good, I honestly don't think it would be that hard. Wall + Love + Beal could be an incredibly foundation. A potential multi-ring dynasty team. Maybe Gortat is still here at C. Figure by that point Porter would be starting at SF. Him, Beal, and Wall all have elite defensive potential. If Love bought in and played good defense we could be a really good defensive team. Memphis plays great defense with ZBo on the floor after all.

Of course, that's a lot of ifs with Love, and involves projecting growth from Wall, Beal, and Porter.

[Ruzious]

To me, and this is overwhelmingly obvious from every angle, it's enough for anyone to say he'd rather have Aldridge than Love for me to conclude that the person doesn't have the faintest idea of how to judge a basketball player.

As to saying "I want Durant" -- guess what, that isn't really a sign of perspicacious analysis either. Who doesn't want Durant?

And here's another thing -- you know what? I want to make love with Jennifer Lawrence. But I'm not planning my future around it.

I've been a huge supporter of Aldridge over the years and still like him, but Love is a better player. Love is arguably the best shooting big man in the game, the best passing big man in the game, and one of the best rebounders in the game. Getting teammates involved is part of leadership, and he shows that with his passing. His defensive numbers are much better than his reputation.

Aldridge has become too much of a jump shooter - which is a shame because he has the ability to be a dominant low post scorer - with his size, length, skills and athleticism. His scoring efficiency is the lowest of his career. And he's not a dominant defender himself. And he hasn't won much either - for the same reason Love hasn't. This season, he's winning more because Portland's management went out and got depth.

That Portland team in 2010-2011 was pretty good, that was really the first year Aldridge was a beast. A lot of people though they were actually the favorite against the Mavs in that playoffs series, and Dallas didn't want any more of them after they got out of that series. Portland could have won that series. But Dirk was on a mission that postseason and literally dragged a hodge podge Mavs team that almost nobody saw coming to a title. Beat Portland. Ended that Lakers dynasty. Postponed OKC's rise handily. Beat a heavily favored Heat team, postponing their dynasty run too. As an aside, Dirk's run was easily one of the most incredible playoff performances in NBA history.

Point being, Aldridge has demonstrated you can win building around him. We're still waiting for that confirmation from Love. I think it has to come next season for Love or he's done in Minnesota.

I don't think Portland's improvement was just a matter of adding depth, their depth still isn't that great, although I'm impressed with Victor Claver. Last year you could see the elements of a pretty good team were there, but it just wasn't all quite coming together. The defense really sucked, Lillard was a rookie, Mathews had a bad year. Lopez is something of an upgrade over Hickson, Lillard has matured into a worthy All Star, and that kind of simplified the roles of Mathews and Batum and the dominoes started falling into place.

But TBH, I wouldn't prefer either Aldridge or Love to be my franchise player and leader to build around. For one thing, they're bad defenders, and that sets a bad tone IMO. Makes it harder to establish the foundation for good defense. Dirk is often brought up as a comparison to those two as an offensively minded PF. But Dirk is a much better and more consistent defender than them IMO. He doesn't dog it like them and Dirk's team's can play defense. I think Dirk always got a bad rap for his defense because his peer PF/Cs were some of the greatest defensive players ever. Aldridge and Love are just bad defenders. And I don't really trust either as leaders. And I think Damian Lillard's emergence has meant that he's assumed a lot of the leadership for Portland, kind of growing into a role as THE guy for them, and that he's as much responsible for Portland's emergence as Aldridge.

I think your conclusions are wrong. The only thing that's been demonstrated is that you're not going to win a championship led by Aldridge or Love without a good supporting cast. Again, I like Aldridge more than most do, but I don't like that he's become so mid-range jump shot dependent. He's no longer the efficient scorer he was in that 2010/2011 season.

[stevemcqueen1]

Aldridge doesn't impress me as a guy that is going to carry 'his' team that far.
He's very good at doing something, shooting long 2s, that generally is not a central
part of winning teams. Love, OTOH, does 2 things much better than LMA
that are central to winning, rebounding and efficient scoring.

And of course a PG is going to dominate the ball more than a PF.
I seriously doubt this would have to be explained to Love.

If we could get Love here, I'd be very happy. Wall is pretty much
the only guy on the team that would be untouchable in a trade
to get Love.

No I don't think Aldridge could carry his team to a ring. I actually think Lillard is going to become the most essential player in Portland in a couple years.

But he's got a lot more than "just" a Dirk-like mid range game. He's got terrific size, legit PF/C size, and he's an excellent rebounder too. Wears you out in the paint. Aldridge is an efficient scorer too, and he creates his own offense and runs offense in the half court. He's got a huge usage rate for a big man in today's NBA. He's a big time offensive weapon that you could build an excellent and balanced offense around, even if you don't really have a traditional PG.

I don't know that he'd be a good fit with Wall though. Aldridge needs the ball in his hands in the high post. Wall needs the ball in his hands. You're mostly looking for finishers for Wall.

I definitely think Kevin Love would be a better fit for us from a skills perspective. Offensively, he'd be awesome with Wall and Beal. Pick and fades and two man games with them would be easy offense that teams would have to run special schemes for. Already you're going into the half court dictating terms to them. Drive and kick and trail game threes would get Love easy set shots to prop up his scoring numbers as his touches take a hit. He could easily make 150 threes a year here, maybe a lot more actually. He could clean up on the offensive glass too when you've got perimeter players taking a lot of the shots. And he could be a monster fast break starter for Wall and Beal. Old school, that would be fun.

I wouldn't trade for him though. Too much risk. Personality, contract, etc. And to me, the biggest appeal of Love is adding him to a fully stocked up core of Wall and Beal and Porter. That's the team with the potential to be special. Say you trade Beal and Porter among other for Love and then you DO get him to take a max extension long term. Well, that's the team. You're not realistically adding any other significant pieces after that, just looking for role players and bargain deals.

I'd wait until he hits UFA. If he didn't sign here, then so be it. I've still got a great foundation in place, and there would be other stars interested.

[Sluggerface]

And Steve, that last paragraph surmises my worry. How many seasons have we started "knowing" that some team should be a contender because on paper it says they should only to discover that the personalities don't blend, or that the "leaders" of the team can't keep it together.

We have a young team and a foundational piece who twice had to have a talking to to get his head readjusted. You think putting a player with all the red flag personality traits next to Wall is what championship teams are built on? I wonder. And I worry especially because those situations seem to fail much more than succeed.

All I'm saying is if you get Love (somehow), you better think long and hard about getting that third piece (rim protector/leader/tough guy). Because that addition will be just as critical to success as getting Love.

Players shouldn't have to have player's only meetings. Get a stronger coach, and the problem fixes itself. That is this organization's achilles heal right now. Even with all of EG's panic moves, so many of his picks haven't panned out simply because our coaching staff wasn't able to maximize their talents.

Trevor Booker is the fastest player on the team, but how often have we seen that speed put to use on the court. How many times did we attempt to get Vesely going in space instead of handing him a dead fish in the post.

This season we've seen Wittman and Co. attempt to turn Brad into J.R. Smith and it's trickled down to hurt the team in so many ways other than Brad chucking long twos. Playing Beal with the 2nd unit effectively makes playing Temple or Porter an impossibility, so we're sacrificing length and defensive acumen on a 2nd unit that desperately needs that right now.

If you want Brad to handle the ball and get used to being out of his comfort zone, then fine, but you can do that without making as many sacrifices as they have had this season to do that.

This organization has tried to rebuild a winning culture when the crux of the issue is the organization itself. Until we cut ties with coaches and GM's that are stuck in past methodologies, and move on with a FO that understands how to win in the modern day NBA. This team will continue to struggle getting out of the cellar.

It is not on John Wall to dominate and encompass this team. Get a better coaching regime, and it won't matter if it's Love or Kwame Brown. We'll still find a way to win.

[stevemcqueen1]

I think your conclusions are wrong. The only thing that's been demonstrated is that you're not going to win a championship led by Aldridge or Love without a good supporting cast. Again, I like Aldridge more than most do, but I don't like that he's become so mid-range jump shot dependent. He's no longer the efficient scorer he was in that 2010/2011 season.

I think he's a good deal better than he was back in 2010-2011. His efficiency dropped because his role changed, not a decay of skills. By and large, he creates his own offense now and scores from all over the floor, which naturally leads to less efficiency, but not less value. The only thing he's not really creating on his own is that pick and fade game on the left side of the floor--which is deadly.

[Ruzious]

I think your conclusions are wrong. The only thing that's been demonstrated is that you're not going to win a championship led by Aldridge or Love without a good supporting cast. Again, I like Aldridge more than most do, but I don't like that he's become so mid-range jump shot dependent. He's no longer the efficient scorer he was in that 2010/2011 season.

I think he's a good deal better than he was back in 2010-2011. His efficiency dropped because his role changed, not a decay of skills. By and large, he creates his own offense now and scores from all over the floor, which naturally leads to less efficiency, but not less value. The only thing he's not really creating on his own is that pick and fade game on the left side of the floor--which is deadly.

Really? He's got an improved big-time PG, quality wings in Batum and Matthew, and so his role is to score less efficiently? He's got a 46% eFG. There's no legitimate reason/excuse for a guy with his talent and skill level to be doing that. A 46% eFG isn't good for a big man no matter what his role is.

[barelyawake]

And Steve, that last paragraph surmises my worry. How many seasons have we started "knowing" that some team should be a contender because on paper it says they should only to discover that the personalities don't blend, or that the "leaders" of the team can't keep it together.

We have a young team and a foundational piece who twice had to have a talking to to get his head readjusted. You think putting a player with all the red flag personality traits next to Wall is what championship teams are built on? I wonder. And I worry especially because those situations seem to fail much more than succeed.

All I'm saying is if you get Love (somehow), you better think long and hard about getting that third piece (rim protector/leader/tough guy). Because that addition will be just as critical to success as getting Love.

Players shouldn't have to have player's only meetings. Get a stronger coach, and the problem fixes itself. That is this organization's achilles heal right now. Even with all of EG's panic moves, so many of his picks haven't panned out simply because our coaching staff wasn't able to maximize their talents.

Trevor Booker is the fastest player on the team, but how often have we seen that speed put to use on the court. How many times did we attempt to get Vesely going in space instead of handing him a dead fish in the post.

This season we've seen Wittman and Co. attempt to turn Brad into J.R. Smith and it's trickled down to hurt the team in so many ways other than Brad chucking long twos. Playing Beal with the 2nd unit effectively makes playing Temple or Porter an impossibility, so we're sacrificing length and defensive acumen on a 2nd unit that desperately needs that right now.

If you want Brad to handle the ball and get used to being out of his comfort zone, then fine, but you can do that without making as many sacrifices as they have had this season to do that.

This organization has tried to rebuild a winning culture when the crux of the issue is the organization itself. Until we cut ties with coaches and GM's that are stuck in past methodologies, and move on with a FO that understands how to win in the modern day NBA. This team will continue to struggle getting out of the cellar.

It is not on John Wall to dominate and encompass this team. Get a better coaching regime, and it won't matter if it's Love or Kwame Brown. We'll still find a way to win.

I understand the point. I just happen to disagree with it. I think team chemistry/personalities play an important role in team development/success. Especially considering Kwame, Blatche and others, we should know that by now. Our coach isn't out on the court. When we are in game seven, and it's the fourth quarter, it will take grit to outwill the other team.

Durant, LeBron and Davis (eventually) are most likely to win most of the championships for the next several years. It's going to take a tough, focused defensive team to take one or two away from them. And as I have said, Love has been criticized for his defense, leadership and his ability to close out games. That should worry people. Because regular season stats aren't what win game seven.

[Nivek]

And as I have said, Love has been criticized for his defense, leadership and his ability to close out games.

At issue, though, is the validity of the criticism. Many apparently believe/agree with the criticism. I haven't found the case made against Love to this point to be credible.

Except maybe the defense, which is something he's improved upon this season.

[barelyawake]

And as I have said, Love has been criticized for his defense, leadership and his ability to close out games.

At issue, though, is the validity of the criticism. Many apparently believe/agree with the criticism. I haven't found the case made against Love to this point to be credible.

Except maybe the defense, which is something he's improved upon this season.

It really doesn't matter because: A) We aren't getting Love and B) We are getting Durant. So, I think this intellectual exercise has run its course. I still would take a handful of players who have demonstrated either defensive prowess or proven leadership qualities (to go along with their stats) over a guy who has been questioned (by fans, sportswriters, and his team management) on both. And I hope our management builds a team with those qualities in mind.

[Dat2U]

I don't love Love. I believe he's a stat monger but a very good one. I'd certainly trade Beal, Porter or whoever else for him but that's only because Love is actually a very good player while Beal & Porter might or might not ever get there.

Love is just as flawed as a Melo, Aldridge or even Amare' in his prime. He has prioritized rebounding numbers over challenging shots. That's a huge issue that needs to be addressed IMO. Also, he must be paired with an athletic shot blocker and elite defender to have any real championship aspirations otherwise were just going to be trying to outscore teams which works, until you get to the playoffs. Trading for Love means Gortat is not the answer at C because Gortat isn't a guy that really anchors the paint defensively.

[fishercob]

I don't love Love. I believe he's a stat monger but a very good one. I'd certainly trade Beal, Porter or whoever else for him but that's only because Love is actually a very good player while Beal & Porter might or might not ever get there.

Love is just as flawed as a Melo, Aldridge or even Amare' in his prime. He has prioritized rebounding numbers over challenging shots. That's a huge issue that needs to be addressed IMO. Also, he must be paired with an athletic shot blocker and elite defender to have any real championship aspirations otherwise were just going to be trying to outscore teams which works, until you get to the playoffs. Trading for Love means Gortat is not the answer at C because Gortat isn't a guy that really anchors the paint defensively.

If Kevin Love is as "flawed" as a prime Amare or Melo, then he'd be a huge get for the Wizards -- bigger than Gilbert Arenas.

While I agree that a core of Love and Wall would need to be augmented and complemented with players with certain skills, I question what that really means; you could say that about any NBA star, as basketball is -- after all -- a team game.

Having Wall, Love, and cap room in a couple of years would be the Wizards best chance at winning since they actually did so some 36 years ago.

[barelyawake]

I don't love Love. I believe he's a stat monger but a very good one. I'd certainly trade Beal, Porter or whoever else for him but that's only because Love is actually a very good player while Beal & Porter might or might not ever get there.

Love is just as flawed as a Melo, Aldridge or even Amare' in his prime. He has prioritized rebounding numbers over challenging shots. That's a huge issue that needs to be addressed IMO. Also, he must be paired with an athletic shot blocker and elite defender to have any real championship aspirations otherwise were just going to be trying to outscore teams which works, until you get to the playoffs. Trading for Love means Gortat is not the answer at C because Gortat isn't a guy that really anchors the paint defensively.

This. In fact, for the past few pages I've been thinking Amare as a prime example of paper tigers. Melo too.

[fishercob]

I don't love Love. I believe he's a stat monger but a very good one. I'd certainly trade Beal, Porter or whoever else for him but that's only because Love is actually a very good player while Beal & Porter might or might not ever get there.

Love is just as flawed as a Melo, Aldridge or even Amare' in his prime. He has prioritized rebounding numbers over challenging shots. That's a huge issue that needs to be addressed IMO. Also, he must be paired with an athletic shot blocker and elite defender to have any real championship aspirations otherwise were just going to be trying to outscore teams which works, until you get to the playoffs. Trading for Love means Gortat is not the answer at C because Gortat isn't a guy that really anchors the paint defensively.

This. In fact, for the past few pages I've been thinking Amare as a prime example of paper tigers. Melo too.

Amare was an unstoppable offensive force. He may have won a title if the Suns hadn;t been screwed by the league office after RObert Horry assaulted Steve Nash.

Had he had Dirk's good fortune of playing with Tyson Chandler, or Gasol's good fortune of playing with Lamar Odom or Bynum, he'd likely have a ring.

[Ruzious]

There are 3 or 4 players in the NBA that aren't flawed. Remember Love isn't the same guy who came out of UCLA as a rookie. As good as he was then, the term Love handles was named after him. His body changed through hard work, and he moves better now. He doesn't have some of the physical limitations he had then. He's not the same guy people made up their minds on. He's like really good - so good that some people really believe bRicky Rubio is good and that alone is an impressive feat.

[Sluggerface]

And as I have said, Love has been criticized for his defense, leadership and his ability to close out games.

At issue, though, is the validity of the criticism. Many apparently believe/agree with the criticism. I haven't found the case made against Love to this point to be credible.

Except maybe the defense, which is something he's improved upon this season.

I agree with this. Love gets star treatment from the media when he's primarily an off-ball player. Love criticisms have always seemed ridiculous to me. Love is your ideal #2 guy. Not a first option.

[barelyawake]

I don't love Love. I believe he's a stat monger but a very good one. I'd certainly trade Beal, Porter or whoever else for him but that's only because Love is actually a very good player while Beal & Porter might or might not ever get there.

Love is just as flawed as a Melo, Aldridge or even Amare' in his prime. He has prioritized rebounding numbers over challenging shots. That's a huge issue that needs to be addressed IMO. Also, he must be paired with an athletic shot blocker and elite defender to have any real championship aspirations otherwise were just going to be trying to outscore teams which works, until you get to the playoffs. Trading for Love means Gortat is not the answer at C because Gortat isn't a guy that really anchors the paint defensively.

This. In fact, for the past few pages I've been thinking Amare as a prime example of paper tigers. Melo too.

Amare was an unstoppable offensive force. He may have won a title if the Suns hadn;t been screwed by the league office after RObert Horry assaulted Steve Nash.

Had he had Dirk's good fortune of playing with Tyson Chandler, or Gasol's good fortune of playing with Lamar Odom or Bynum, he'd likely have a ring.

Fish, I think that last sentence is ridiculous for about fifteen to nineteen different reasons. The first being you exclude Kobe in your calculations. The second being you are comparing Amare's mindset and skill set to Dirk's. Third, you think Amare and Lamar Odom make a championship frontcourt? Catching a plane. So, I'll merely say that you can say it is likely. I'll say it is absolutely unlikely. And since it never happened, it's a draw.

[fishercob]

This. In fact, for the past few pages I've been thinking Amare as a prime example of paper tigers. Melo too.

Amare was an unstoppable offensive force. He may have won a title if the Suns hadn;t been screwed by the league office after RObert Horry assaulted Steve Nash.

Had he had Dirk's good fortune of playing with Tyson Chandler, or Gasol's good fortune of playing with Lamar Odom or Bynum, he'd likely have a ring.

Fish, I think that last sentence is ridiculous for about fifteen to nineteen different reasons. The first being you exclude Kobe in your calculations. The second being you are comparing Amare's mindset and skill set to Dirk's. Third, you think Amare and Lamar Odom make a championship frontcourt? Catching a plane. So, I'll merely say that you can say it is likely. I'll say it is absolutely unlikely. And since it never happened, it's a draw.

I didn't exclude Kobe (or Gasol) from my calculations; I just didn't think I had to show my work. The Lakers don't win their recent two titles without Gasol or Kobe obviously; but they also don't win without the interior D they got from Bynum and Odom.

[nate33]

People are overthinking this Love issue.

It doesn't matter whether or not you label him a "#1 guy" or a "#2 guy". He's a guy that can score 26 points a night efficiently. He currently ranks 4th in the league in points per game. Clearly, that's the production of a "#1 guy". There are only 3 #1 guys who score more, and only 2 who score more with equivalent efficiency.

At the same time, Love isn't really the first option shot creator in the mold of Durant, Lebron or Carmelo. He's a guy who scores in the flow of the offense, on pick-and-rolls, pick-and-pops, drive-and-kicks, and offensive rebounds. If that makes him a "#2 guy", so be it. It doesn't matter. As a matter of fact, given that we already have a superstar ball-dominant PG in Wall, I'm completely happy with a high-volume #2 guy (if that's what we're going to call him). Either way, I think he can score 26 points a night with efficiency for us too. And that's a very good thing.

I agree with those who are concerned about his defense. I don't think he's a horrible defender, but it would make a lot of sense to pair him with a rim-protecting center. The good news is that with Wall and Love running the offense, that rim-protecting center doesn't have to be an offensive threat. Finding no-offense defensive centers isn't THAT hard. We may not be able to add him right away, but one will become available sooner or later. Look at what Dallas has done over the years. They always seem to find a defensive center off the scrap heap, whether it's Erick Dampier, Tyson Chandler, Brendan Haywood or Samuel Dalembert.

[LyricalRico]

People are overthinking this Love issue.

True on so many levels. LOL

[Ruzious]

Something that gets overlooked on Love ended up scoring the game winning point against OKC last night - passing. He made a highlight reel pass to Brewer to set up a foul on OKC near the end of OT - and Brewer made 1 of 2 to win it.

That would be the opposite of an empty stat.