
Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
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Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
- mybloodisorange
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Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
I'm still trying to figure out how we denied Portland a playoff spot 

Everybody dies but not everybody truly lives.
Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
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Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
RunDogGun wrote:letsgosuns wrote:RunDogGun wrote:Nash's biggest problem on defense at least while with the Suns, was a lack of trust in Amare. Nash would often lag off his man to help inside or fill the lanes to stop interior passes. Often this backfired on him, and his man was wide open for a deep shot. But that seemed to be D'Antoni's thing, allow the long shot, and bait the other team to fall in love with the longer shots. Then don't foul, to allow a quicker game.
One could see the difference in Nash when we got Shaquille. Instead of going under screens, Nash went over them, because Shaquille had the paint covered, and often if a guard when in there, Shaquille put them on their arse. Again, that was tough because teams figured that Shaquille would not leave the paint, and then a wide open twelve footer was the result.
I think too many forget all the screens set to free up Nash's man, and the lack of recovery by some of our bigs to do their job.
I do not mean to pick on Nash, especially with everything he has done for the Suns franchise, but if anyone wants to see how bad Nash really was at defense, watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO4caOwS6jI
You should watch the whole thing, but I would say pay special attention to Nash starting at the 2:05 mark of the video. You see how good the Spurs play him and how bad he is on defense in the ensuing possession. He runs away from Kerr at 2:33 for absolutely no reason. Then at about 3:20 in the video, Nash literally does the dumbest thing possible and runs away from Kerr again for absolutely no reason, even after Kerr just drained three three pointers in a row. When Duncan passes it back to Kerr, Nash not only does not run back at Kerr, he keeps his back turned and runs away from him. It was almost as if he knew he was completely helpless on defense and did not know what to do.
Again, I do not mean to pick on Nash, but this has to be pointed out. This was game 6 of the 2003 WCF, the Mavs had a big second half lead, and they could not hold on because their defense was awful. The Suns had leads against the Spurs in the 2005 WCF in the second halves of the first two home games and blew both games. They had a lead all the way through the fourth quarter in game five in 2007 and blew it at the end when Nash did not stay on his man. Here is the clip if you do not remember (and believe me, I do not like watching this) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE6WkyPDSF8 That looks kinda similar to how Nash leaves Kerr huh? Nash just had no idea how to play defense during crunch time. Obviously the Suns never would have been even close to the finals without Nash and I know how incredible he was and a well deserved MVP, but the whole point I am trying to make is that without great defense, you cannot win a title, no matter how good your offense is.
Why did you make me watch that video if you didn't understand what was going on in it? First, Dallas was CLEARLY playing a zone defense, so one could argue that a zone at that time was not wise, but no one could really comment on one player in particular playing poor defense. Second, if you couldn't see Nash CLEARLY doubling on the two plays you said he ran away for no reason at all, I think this conversation is over, because there is nothing I can say that would make that more obvious.![]()
Lastly, didn't you just make a comment about chucking threes is no way to win a championship,yet your video seems to show a SAS chip team chucking up threes to win that game.![]()
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Showtime Lakers weren't really good on defense, they just out scored you. And when Amare went down, the Suns defense was pretty good, even with Nash running the squad, and D'Antoni coaching the team.
Oh well, this has been fun going down memory opinion hall of fame.
Obviously Nash is leaving to double team, but it makes no sense. Kerr is on fire and you do not leave the shooter. It is the fact that Nash is not really doing anything. He is kind of standing in no man's land. The last play when he runs to Duncan and does a hard double team, Duncan passes it directly back to Kerr and Nash actually goes in the opposite direction of Kerr. What the hell was he doing? I understand a zone defense where you protect the paint but Nash is deliberately leaving his man wide open play after play. It is like he does not learn. You would think by the time Kerr has already made his third three that Nash would realize hey, maybe I should not leave him wide open. But he does anyway.
And no I said a three point shooting contest is no way to win a championship. There is a big difference between that and playing fantastic defense like the Spurs did. The Spurs got all the stops and then were shooting wide open threes. The Mavs shots were contested and the Spurs had open shots. Huge difference. The Spurs played great defense, had great ball movement, and that resulted in open shots.
By the way, you say that the showtime Lakers were not a good defensive team. Every year they won the finals in the 80's, they were a top 10 defensive team. Check out the ratings if you do not believe me. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/
Now look at Nash's Suns teams defensive ratings: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/
The best the Suns with Nash ever did was the 13th best defense in 2007. The other years they were the 16th (in 2006, the year Amare was injured), 17th, 26th, and 23rd. Those showtime finals Lakers teams lowest ranking was the 10th best defense in the league, which obviously is three spots better than the Suns best defensive Nash era team. So the Lakers worst defensive year is still better than the Suns best defensive year. You want to tell me that the Suns played good defense again?
Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
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Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
He does it on two plays in that video, and one of the plays it wasn't his man that he left that shoots. If you watch the whole video, like you asked me to do, the same thing happens when Nash wasn't even on the court. So it seemed like that was the defensive sets. Unless you are blaming Nash for Nick Van Exel, doing the same thing.
Cool, I'm finished talking about this. It seemed very easy to explain everything in that video clip.
So you are basing this on points per 100 possessions?
Moreover, basing it on a season, especially when we had so many injured players the year Amare was out, seems like you are leaving tons of holes in your argument.
And the Spurs didn't play great defense. Unless you call constant hand checking and full on two hand grabbing good defense. Getting away with fouls is not great defense, no matter who is doing it.

Cool, I'm finished talking about this. It seemed very easy to explain everything in that video clip.
So you are basing this on points per 100 possessions?

And the Spurs didn't play great defense. Unless you call constant hand checking and full on two hand grabbing good defense. Getting away with fouls is not great defense, no matter who is doing it.
Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
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Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
mybloodisorange wrote:I'm still trying to figure out how we denied Portland a playoff spot
With a win, they would have clinched a playoff spot. So with a loss, they were still mathematically not guaranteed a spot.
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Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
RunDogGun wrote:He does it on two plays in that video, and one of the plays it wasn't his man that he left that shoots. If you watch the whole video, like you asked me to do, the same thing happens when Nash wasn't even on the court. So it seemed like that was the defensive sets. Unless you are blaming Nash for Nick Van Exel, doing the same thing.![]()
Cool, I'm finished talking about this. It seemed very easy to explain everything in that video clip.
So you are basing this on points per 100 possessions?Moreover, basing it on a season, especially when we had so many injured players the year Amare was out, seems like you are leaving tons of holes in your argument.
And the Spurs didn't play great defense. Unless you call constant hand checking and full on two hand grabbing good defense. Getting away with fouls is not great defense, no matter who is doing it.
Yes Nick Van Exel does it too. They all do. They were all terrible. Nash was just so bad. Nash's teams are always so bad on defense no matter who the coach is. Nash was always on a top 3 offensive team that was almost equally as bad on defense. That is why it is so sad. If the teams he was on ever cared about being great defensive teams, he would have multiple championships. His teams could be so unstoppable offensively but never get stops or even rebounds when they mattered most. Steve Nash has the most playoff games of any player in the history of basketball without ever reaching the finals. A truly disappointing statistic.
Also, basing it on the year Amare was out? Huh? The Suns were awful on defense every year between 05-10, not just the year Amare was out. The only year they were even somewhat decent was in 2007 when they ranked 13th in defensive efficiency.
By the way, you are really saying the Spurs did not play good defense? You can actually say that and mean it? I am sorry you feel that way. The stats show that they did play great defense. In fact, they were ranked 3rd in defense in 2003. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html
Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
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Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
I said they didn't play "great" defense. Don't change it to "good" and then argue it.
Again getting away with fouls, being allowed to hand check from half court in, and full on two hand grabbing often, isn't "great" defense. If Duncan was called for every shove he does off screens, he wouldn't play more than fifteen minutes.
Oh well, again after watching that video, and your incorrect comments about it, I would just say good day sir.

Again getting away with fouls, being allowed to hand check from half court in, and full on two hand grabbing often, isn't "great" defense. If Duncan was called for every shove he does off screens, he wouldn't play more than fifteen minutes.
Oh well, again after watching that video, and your incorrect comments about it, I would just say good day sir.
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Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
RunDogGun wrote:I said they didn't play "great" defense. Don't change it to "good" and then argue it.![]()
Again getting away with fouls, being allowed to hand check from half court in, and full on two hand grabbing often, isn't "great" defense. If Duncan was called for every shove he does off screens, he wouldn't play more than fifteen minutes.
Oh well, again after watching that video, and your incorrect comments about it, I would just say good day sir.
Okay whatever, I really do not care. I think Nash is an awful defensive player, his teams were always awful defensively, and this is what kept them from winning a title. (I do think the 2007 Suns vs. Spurs was fixed though). The Spurs defense has been incredible since Duncan was drafted and if you disagree with that so be it. You do not have to agree with me. I am not trying to convince you. I am just stating how I feel. With that being said, I think the Suns organization needs to make a commitment to becoming a great defensive team if they want to really be a title contender. The year the Celtics won a title when McD was there, they were the number one ranked defense in the league. Ryan McD knows what it takes. I hope he can get the Suns there. The Suns will not win the title unless they become a great defensive team.
Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
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Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
RunDogGun wrote:mybloodisorange wrote:I'm still trying to figure out how we denied Portland a playoff spot
With a win, they would have clinched a playoff spot. So with a loss, they were still mathematically not guaranteed a spot.
I was just going to post that same response. A+ answer.
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Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
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Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
I almost treat the Nash era like we won.
Because the team was just so damn good in a couple of those seasons lol.
Because the team was just so damn good in a couple of those seasons lol.
oldscho0led wrote:Baseball is all about momentum. Pirates will carry their winning ways and beat Giants in the Wildcard.
A's over Royals. Lester and experience will prove that he's worth the trade.
Tigers winning it all. Tigers are, imo, peaking at the right time.
Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
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Re: Game 76: Suns @ Blazers
letsgosuns wrote:RunDogGun wrote:I said they didn't play "great" defense. Don't change it to "good" and then argue it.![]()
Again getting away with fouls, being allowed to hand check from half court in, and full on two hand grabbing often, isn't "great" defense. If Duncan was called for every shove he does off screens, he wouldn't play more than fifteen minutes.
Oh well, again after watching that video, and your incorrect comments about it, I would just say good day sir.
Okay whatever, I really do not care. I think Nash is an awful defensive player, his teams were always awful defensively, and this is what kept them from winning a title. (I do think the 2007 Suns vs. Spurs was fixed though). The Spurs defense has been incredible since Duncan was drafted and if you disagree with that so be it. You do not have to agree with me. I am not trying to convince you. I am just stating how I feel. With that being said, I think the Suns organization needs to make a commitment to becoming a great defensive team if they want to really be a title contender. The year the Celtics won a title when McD was there, they were the number one ranked defense in the league. Ryan McD knows what it takes. I hope he can get the Suns there. The Suns will not win the title unless they become a great defensive team.
See there is a problem in the whole argument. We have had a bunch of defensive minded players throughout the Nash era, Marion, Bell, Thomas, James Jones, and a few others. All learned to play within Mike's system. Most played excellent defense; however, because we aren't one of the big named teams, we don't get the calls or the nods that other teams do. So most fans think those teams play "great" or "incredible" defense, because that would be the only explanation if every game was called fairly. But that is just not the case.
I was thinking of Bruce Bowen the other day, and what I would like to say to him. I thought he was a poor defender, who had to grab guys often to keep them from driving past him. He did it almost every possession. It's not defense, it's fouling. But since he is/was on the Spurs, he got away with it, and many called it good defense, because the results were players not making their shots. Well any idiot can two hand grab guys, but it's not a valid defensive move. Now, taking charges without flopping is a great defensive move. It means you have anticipated the offensive player's moves, set yourself, and stopped a drive without fouling. Yet this stat doesn't show up in many defensive stat lines, but it's as good as a steal, and often better than a block.
It will be tough for McD to build a defensive team, without first having the refs call fair games and not placate the star players. Think about the Tucker/Griffin ordeal. Griffin takes down Tucker, lands on him, and then slowly gets off him. Tucker doesn't take it, and gives him a shot in the chops. Why wasn't Griffin called for a foul? And then the next night, Griffin does a similar thing, and still the guy he takes down gets the foul.
When the league clamps down on teams being overly aggressive, and really fouling like crazy, then McD could build this defensive team you want.