Barbeque Chicken: The Cody Zeller Thread - Pt 2

[Liver_Pooty]

I'll begin to believe it the day that I see Cody Zeller make one (1) single 3-pointer during a game. He hasn't made one in 2 full years at Indiana University, and has yet to make one this far into Charlotte's season. I'm not one that tend to believe in things that I haven't even seen a glimpse of

You don't have to be a three point shooter to become a stretch 4 in my opinion. I believe Pau Gasol is somewhat of a stretch 4, and he doesn't shoot 3's. Zeller isn't going to be a Nowitzki or Ryan Anderson, but he will be a solid shooter from 15-18 feet out. Im more than content with that.

A 'stretch 4' is required to stretch out beyond the 3-point arc. If all Zeller is going to shoot is midrange jump shots then he will be a typical PF with a jump shot. Essentially every PF in NBA history has & continue to midrange jump shots. If he isn't intended to shoot 3-pointers then we need to do-away with the 'stretch 4' label when considering his prospective future outlook

Disagree about the typical definition of a stretch 4. Even then he may eventually have 3 point range. We shall see.

[mrknowitall215]

You don't have to be a three point shooter to become a stretch 4 in my opinion. I believe Pau Gasol is somewhat of a stretch 4, and he doesn't shoot 3's. Zeller isn't going to be a Nowitzki or Ryan Anderson, but he will be a solid shooter from 15-18 feet out. Im more than content with that.

A 'stretch 4' is required to stretch out beyond the 3-point arc. If all Zeller is going to shoot is midrange jump shots then he will be a typical PF with a jump shot. Essentially every PF in NBA history has & continue to midrange jump shots. If he isn't intended to shoot 3-pointers then we need to do-away with the 'stretch 4' label when considering his prospective future outlook

Disagree about the typical definition of a stretch 4. Even then he may eventually have 3 point range. We shall see.

If the PF isn't shooting 3-pointers, then how much is he really stretching the floor? The physical definition of a 'stretch 4' is players like Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Love, Ryan Anderson, and etc.

The day Cody Zeller become a steady or willing 3-point shooter with decent efficiency that will be a aberration. I trust Zeller shooting outside the paint to a far lesser degree than the ultra-inefficient jump shooting of Josh Smith of the Detroit Pistons

Within stating that, I don't see nothing wrong with Zeller being a conventional PF that uses his athleticism & height to his advantage. That's where he is most valuable at, and it's proven over his recent improvements as a serviceable player. It also wouldn't hurt Zeller to try to extend his shooting range this offseason, but his strength is in attacking the rim, soaring high, and drawing fouls, not drifting away from the basket

[LamarMatic7]

That seems like arguing about technicalities. It's not like the Oxford dictionary has the correct explanation for the term "stretch four".

In my opinion, such a player doesn't necessarily need to shoot threes as power forwards who can hit long mid-range jumpers also stretch the floor hence they could be called "stretch fours".

[mrknowitall215]

That seems like arguing about technicalities. It's not like the Oxford dictionary has the correct explanation for the term "stretch four".

In my opinion, such a player doesn't necessarily need to shoot threes as power forwards who can hit long mid-range jumpers also stretch the floor hence they could be called "stretch fours".

Which player is the origin of the term 'stretch 4'? Whatever that said player did is the proper use of the label

[Liver_Pooty]

That seems like arguing about technicalities. It's not like the Oxford dictionary has the correct explanation for the term "stretch four".

In my opinion, such a player doesn't necessarily need to shoot threes as power forwards who can hit long mid-range jumpers also stretch the floor hence they could be called "stretch fours".

Exactly.

[LamarMatic7]

That seems like arguing about technicalities. It's not like the Oxford dictionary has the correct explanation for the term "stretch four".

In my opinion, such a player doesn't necessarily need to shoot threes as power forwards who can hit long mid-range jumpers also stretch the floor hence they could be called "stretch fours".

Which player is the origin of the term 'stretch 4'? Whatever that said player did is the proper use of the label

Well, that's one way to try and solve this argument. Devil's advocate though - someone can easily say: "well, Bob Cousy was the first player who was called a point guard. Does that mean Russell Westbrook can't be described as a point guard?"

[mrknowitall215]

That seems like arguing about technicalities. It's not like the Oxford dictionary has the correct explanation for the term "stretch four".

In my opinion, such a player doesn't necessarily need to shoot threes as power forwards who can hit long mid-range jumpers also stretch the floor hence they could be called "stretch fours".

Which player is the origin of the term 'stretch 4'? Whatever that said player did is the proper use of the label

Well, that's one way to try and solve this argument. Devil's advocate though - someone can easily say: "well, Bob Cousy was the first player who was called a point guard. Does that mean Russell Westbrook can't be described as a point guard?"

Now we're talking technicalities in which is exactly where I'm trying to take this discussion to define what a 'stretch 4' is. Bob Cousy was a pass-first point while Russell Westbrook is a shoot-first point guard, the same way Tim Duncan is a typical power forward that scores in the post while Dirk Nowitzki is a 'stretch 4' power forward

[LamarMatic7]

Which player is the origin of the term 'stretch 4'? Whatever that said player did is the proper use of the label

Well, that's one way to try and solve this argument. Devil's advocate though - someone can easily say: "well, Bob Cousy was the first player who was called a point guard. Does that mean Russell Westbrook can't be described as a point guard?"

Now we're talking technicalities in which is exactly where I'm trying to take this discussion to define what a 'stretch 4' is. Bob Cousy was a pass-first point while Russell Westbrook is a shoot-first point guard, the same way Tim Duncan is a typical power forward that scores in the post while Dirk Nowitzki is a 'stretch 4' power forward

If there can be pass-first point guards and shoot-first point guards, then there can be stretch fours who make threes and stretch fours who are limited to 18-footers, can't they?

[mrknowitall215]

You can't name many great (or even good) power forwards that didn't have the ability to make midrange jump shots. If the ability to make midrange jump shots defined a 'stretch 4' then they might as well change the frameworks of the position from 'power forward' to 'stretch 4'

...because Karl Malone, Horace Grant, Elton Brand, Zach Randolph, Carlos Boozer, and Kurt Thomas could all shoot out to 20 feet but I wouldn't consider any of them a 'stretch 4'

Rasheed Wallace, Derrick Coleman, Donyell Marshall, & Lamar Odom as well as the modern Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Love, Ryan Anderson, and such players are what I consider 'stretch 4' power forwards

[mrknowitall215]

If there can be pass-first point guards and shoot-first point guards, then there can be stretch fours who make threes and stretch fours who are limited to 18-footers, can't they?

No, because the position is power forward. 'Stretch 4' is a term used to define a power forward that typically can stretch the floor beyond the limits of the prototype power forward

[JDR720]

I think i will have to agree with Mr.Kia a stretch 4 is a PF that can shoot threes, if a stretch 4 just has to make midrange shots then half the PF's in the NBA are stretch 4's

[mrknowitall215]

I think i will have to agree with Mr.Kia a stretch 4 is a PF that can shoot threes, if a stretch 4 just has to make midrange shots then half the PF's in the NBA are stretch 4's

More than half (almost all) of the power forwards in the NBA make midrange jump shots. Even Kenneth Faried, Jordan Hill, and Greg Monroe have had some middling success (over 35%) at shooting outside the paint, and I wouldn't consider any of them to be 'stretch 4' power forwards or even power forwards with a dependable jump shot

[LamarMatic7]

I think i will have to agree with Mr.Kia a stretch 4 is a PF that can shoot threes, if a stretch 4 just has to make midrange shots then half the PF's in the NBA are stretch 4's

More than half (almost all) of the power forwards in the NBA make midrange jump shots. Even Kenneth Faried, Jordan Hill, and Greg Monroe have had some middling success (over 35%) at shooting outside the paint, and I wouldn't consider any of them to be 'stretch 4' power forwards or even power forwards with a dependable jump shot

Being capable of making the shot is not the point. Being so good at it that you actually stretch the floor by making defenders come out at you is the point. You said it yourself that they don't have a dependable jump shot. Well, yes, and that's why they can't stretch the floor.

[LamarMatic7]

At the end of the day, this argument is without much meaning. There are no rules to the language of basketball and thus some terms don't have strict definitions. That especially concerns rather new terminology as any one hypothetically can introduce a new word and no one can tell what meaning the word will take on. Hell, Reggie Miller basically popularized the word "verticality" during the playoffs. Now it's being used in official league memos.

[mrknowitall215]

I think i will have to agree with Mr.Kia a stretch 4 is a PF that can shoot threes, if a stretch 4 just has to make midrange shots then half the PF's in the NBA are stretch 4's

More than half (almost all) of the power forwards in the NBA make midrange jump shots. Even Kenneth Faried, Jordan Hill, and Greg Monroe have had some middling success (over 35%) at shooting outside the paint, and I wouldn't consider any of them to be 'stretch 4' power forwards or even power forwards with a dependable jump shot

Being capable of making the shot is not the point. Being so good at it that you actually stretch the floor by making defenders come out at you is the point. You said it yourself that they don't have a dependable jump shot. Well, yes, and that's why they can't stretch the floor.

All in all, my original argument was to say that Charlotte shouldn't waste too much effort in trying to make Cody Zeller a jump shooter, nevertheless a 3-point shooter. Zeller shot worst outside of the paint than any of the aforementioned names who were all around 35% away from the rim, and we have agreed that none of them are dependable jump shooters. Even during Zeller's recent hot streak over the past month or more he is only shooting 31% outside of the paint versus 65% at the rim. Zeller may never become a dependable jump shooter for all we know, so I believe we should abandon the thought of him being labeled a 'stretch 4' until he show some resemblance of such. That was the premise of my argument

[LamarMatic7]

More than half (almost all) of the power forwards in the NBA make midrange jump shots. Even Kenneth Faried, Jordan Hill, and Greg Monroe have had some middling success (over 35%) at shooting outside the paint, and I wouldn't consider any of them to be 'stretch 4' power forwards or even power forwards with a dependable jump shot

Being capable of making the shot is not the point. Being so good at it that you actually stretch the floor by making defenders come out at you is the point. You said it yourself that they don't have a dependable jump shot. Well, yes, and that's why they can't stretch the floor.

All in all, my original argument was to say that Charlotte shouldn't waste too much effort in trying to make Cody Zeller a jump shooter, nevertheless a 3-point shooter. Zeller shot worst outside of the paint than any of the aforementioned names who were all around 35% away from the rim, and we have agreed that none of them are dependable jump shooters. Even during Zeller's recent hot streak over the past month or more he is only shooting 31% outside of the paint versus 65% at the rim. Zeller may never become a dependable jump shooter for all we know, so I believe we should abandon the thought of him being labeled a 'stretch 4' until he show some resemblance of such. That was the premise of my argument

I think there's certainly no harm in developing the shot during off-seasons. A lot of power forwards join the league as questionable shooters, yet improve their stroke with time. As far as the current situation is concerned, yes, we're better off with him attacking the rim.

[mrknowitall215]

No harm at all in developing Zeller's jump shot during the offseason. After all, that's what the offseason is for, to develop or improve on aspects of your game that could take your game to the next level. It was just rather aggravating watching them encourage him to shoot long 2-point jump shots in-game early in the season

[Elden Payton]

The origin of strecth four is a big that can consistently hit the mid range jumper to open up the paint.

Dirk has changed the game with the three but the ability to hit the three isn't necessary to label someone a stretch four.

Just my 2 cents.

If Cody can be a garbage man with the ability to nail the mid range shot, he would be the perfect compliment to either Al or Biz long term.

[Liver_Pooty]

Alot of you should start eating crow. This guy should be our current starter (Josh will start when he comes back, whatever) . But Zellers going to be a stud.

[catch20two]

As long as he's not shooting long 2s he is on my good side. I've said plenty of times during the season that I liked his ability to defend, grab rebounds, and not ball stop over McBob's occasional 3 pointer. I took a lot of flack for that too but I'll happily eat crow on Zeller becoming something more than utter garbage. He's very serviceable now.