Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2)

[closg00]

So the Cats took less time to return to the playoffs then the Wizards.

My fall-back position now is hoping for the Wizards to be decisively swept in the 1st. round, that is my only hope for change in the FO and coaching.

[hands11]

So the Cats took less time to return to the playoffs then the Wizards.

My fall-back position now is hoping for the Wizards to be decisively swept in the 1st. round, that is my only hope for change in the FO and coaching.

This is not a position on EG but what happened in CHA needs to be put in context.

They were a team that popped into the playoffs one year ( their only year ) then out for 3 while they load up. They also didn't have Gil's contract to dump and gungate. And no, Gils contract was not on EG, it was on Abe. And if not for lucking into Al Jefferson (well done by MJ), they would still be out of the playoffs. They picked MKG over Beal. They picked Bismack Biyombo 7th. But at least they were smart enough to pick Kemba Walker over Jimmer. And picked Zeller last year was a good pick.

I think they are an interesting team that can get better but they aren't out of the woods yet.

As for what happens to the Wizards in the playoffs. I suspect that will have more to do with determining what happens to Randy then it does EG. I suspect Ted already has a good sense of what he wants to do with EG. He has either lined up people he thinks are better, or he is going to do something like extend him 2 yrs or move him up and bring in a GM under him depending in part of what EG wants to do.

[closg00]

So the Cats took less time to return to the playoffs then the Wizards.

My fall-back position now is hoping for the Wizards to be decisively swept in the 1st. round, that is my only hope for change in the FO and coaching.

This is not a position on EG but what happened in CHA needs to be put in context.

They were a team that popped into the playoffs one year ( their only year ) then out for 3 while they reloaded. They also didn't have Gil's contract to dump and gungate. And no, Gils contract was not on EG, it was on Abe. And if not for lucking into Al Jefferson (well done by MJ), they would still be out of the playoffs. They picked MKG over Beal. They picked Bismack Biyombo 7th. But at least they were smart enough to pick Kemba Walker over Jimmer. And picked Zeller last year was a good pick.

I think they are an interesting team that can get better but they aren't out of the woods yet.

As for what happens to the Wizards in the playoffs. I suspect that will have more to do with determining what happens to Randy then it does EG. I suspect Ted already has a good sense of what he wants to do with EG. He has either lined up people he thinks are better, or he is going to do something like extend him 2 yrs or move him up and bring in a GM under him depending in part of what EG wants to do.

How did CHA "luck" into AJ? AJ was an FA that CHA targeted and signed. The bottom-line is CHA currently 1-game behind us in the ranking.

Rebuilding is rebuilding. Nobody forced Ernie to blow the entire 2011 draft, rush to sign Eric Fricken Maynor, not plan for the predicted injuries to Okafor and Nene....and on-and-on. PHX had a worse record that the Wiz last-year, this year they have a better record.

The Wizard tortuous path back to mediocrity would have been much shorter had they been under competent management.

[dckingsfan]

So the Cats took less time to return to the playoffs then the Wizards.

My fall-back position now is hoping for the Wizards to be decisively swept in the 1st. round, that is my only hope for change in the FO and coaching.

This is not a position on EG but what happened in CHA needs to be put in context.

They were a team that popped into the playoffs one year ( their only year ) then out for 3 while they reloaded. They also didn't have Gil's contract to dump and gungate. And no, Gils contract was not on EG, it was on Abe. And if not for lucking into Al Jefferson (well done by MJ), they would still be out of the playoffs. They picked MKG over Beal. They picked Bismack Biyombo 7th. But at least they were smart enough to pick Kemba Walker over Jimmer. And picked Zeller last year was a good pick.

I think they are an interesting team that can get better but they aren't out of the woods yet.

As for what happens to the Wizards in the playoffs. I suspect that will have more to do with determining what happens to Randy then it does EG. I suspect Ted already has a good sense of what he wants to do with EG. He has either lined up people he thinks are better, or he is going to do something like extend him 2 yrs or move him up and bring in a GM under him depending in part of what EG wants to do.

How did CHA "luck" into AJ? AJ was an FA that CHA targeted and signed. The bottom-line is CHA currently 1-game behind us in the ranking.

Rebuilding is rebuilding. Nobody forced Ernie to blow the entire 2011 draft, rush to sign Eric Fricken Maynor, not plan for the predicted injuries to Okafor and Nene....and on-and-on. PHX had a worse record that the Wiz last-year, this year they have a better record.

The Wizard tortuous path back to mediocrity would have been much shorter had they been under competent management.

Agreed, we would be a 50+ win team with a competent GM.

[hands11]

This is not a position on EG but what happened in CHA needs to be put in context.

They were a team that popped into the playoffs one year ( their only year ) then out for 3 while they reloaded. They also didn't have Gil's contract to dump and gungate. And no, Gils contract was not on EG, it was on Abe. And if not for lucking into Al Jefferson (well done by MJ), they would still be out of the playoffs. They picked MKG over Beal. They picked Bismack Biyombo 7th. But at least they were smart enough to pick Kemba Walker over Jimmer. And picked Zeller last year was a good pick.

I think they are an interesting team that can get better but they aren't out of the woods yet.

As for what happens to the Wizards in the playoffs. I suspect that will have more to do with determining what happens to Randy then it does EG. I suspect Ted already has a good sense of what he wants to do with EG. He has either lined up people he thinks are better, or he is going to do something like extend him 2 yrs or move him up and bring in a GM under him depending in part of what EG wants to do.

How did CHA "luck" into AJ? AJ was an FA that CHA targeted and signed. The bottom-line is CHA currently 1-game behind us in the ranking.

Rebuilding is rebuilding. Nobody forced Ernie to blow the entire 2011 draft, rush to sign Eric Fricken Maynor, not plan for the predicted injuries to Okafor and Nene....and on-and-on. PHX had a worse record that the Wiz last-year, this year they have a better record.

The Wizard tortuous path back to mediocrity would have been much shorter had they been under competent management.

Agreed, we would be a 50+ win team with a competent GM.

What does that even mean ? So every team should be a 50 win team then. Just get a competent GM. That's easy. I'll pick one up at the 7-11 next time I stop in there.

So who do you think CHA will pick in the first round next year ?
How do you grade the Bismack Biyombo pick one pick after Ves ?
How do you grade the MKG pick one pick before Beal ?
Do you believe they will have a better team then the Wizards next year ?

Since 2004 the Bobcast had lottery assets every year but once when they made the playoff that one time. Thats 10 lottery assets. The Wizards have had 5 since then because they actually had a winning teams in the playoffs during that period. For as long as CHA has sucked and all the lottery assets they have had, they should have been able to design a title team by now.

[dckingsfan]

The Wizard tortuous path back to mediocrity would have been much shorter had they been under competent management.

Agreed, we would be a 50+ win team with a competent GM.

What does that even mean ?

It means the rebuild would not have been as convoluted or painful with a competent GM. There is a reason he is ranked where he is...

But there it is a good debate - which FO was worse, the 26th or 24th ranked FO. Damning comparison.

[payitforward]

How did CHA "luck" into AJ? AJ was an FA that CHA targeted and signed. The bottom-line is CHA currently 1-game behind us in the ranking.

Rebuilding is rebuilding. Nobody forced Ernie to blow the entire 2011 draft, rush to sign Eric Fricken Maynor, not plan for the predicted injuries to Okafor and Nene....and on-and-on. PHX had a worse record that the Wiz last-year, this year they have a better record.

The Wizard tortuous path back to mediocrity would have been much shorter had they been under competent management.

Agreed, we would be a 50+ win team with a competent GM.

What does that even mean ? So every team should be a 50 win team then. Just get a competent GM. That's easy. I'll pick one up at the 7-11 next time I stop in there.

So who do you think CHA will pick in the first round next year ?
How do you grade the Bismack Biyombo pick one pick after Ves ?
How do you grade the MKG pick one pick before Beal ?
Do you believe they will have a better team then the Wizards next year ?

Since 2004 the Bobcast had lottery assets every year but once when they made the playoff that one time. Thats 10 lottery assets. The Wizards have had 5 since then because they actually had a winning teams in the playoffs during that period. For as long as CHA has sucked and all the lottery assets they have had, they should have been able to design a title team by now.

Wow, Hands. Just... wow!

Charlotte may wind up having a better team than the Wizards *this* year -- why wait? And, to date, we are one win better than Charlotte over 77 games. This is a point of pride? That we're, maybe, better than Charlotte?

Biyombo has been a better player than Vesely. And MK-G has been a better player than BB so far -- or are we going to be forever looking only at how many points a player scores as the measure of his productivity?

No, Charlotte is not a well-run franchise. But... that's the problem with the point you seem to want to make. Their poorly-run franchise is posting the same results we're posting! And they haven't retained the genius who made all that lack of success happen for over a decade the way we have Ernie! Nor have they moved up in the draft via ping pong balls twice in the last four drafts!

The fact that we even have to have Charlotte in the discussion after the unbelievable set of assets we had to work with -- that's the problem.

Btw, they have a round 1 pick this year. Do we? And they have more cap flexibility too. But the real point is... why do we have to compare ourselves to Charlotte? The answer is simple -- because of Ernie Grunfeld that's why.

[Kanyewest]

^^ At least we're not Detroit (or Cleveland!)

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM[/youtube]

Although I guess Detroit won a championship 10 years ago...

[DCZards]

Biyombo has been a better player than Vesely. And MK-G has been a better player than BB so far -- or are we going to be forever looking only at how many points a player scores as the measure of his productivity?

PIF, on what basis have you determined that MKG has been a better player than Beal?

[closg00]

I haven't seen MKG much this season, but he appears that he is on the late-blooming SF track. Beal appears to have had more success earlier, don't know of the numbers supports this.

[Ruzious]

I haven't seen MKG much this season, but he appears that he is on the late-blooming SF track. Beal appears to have had more success earlier, don't know of the numbers supports this.

MKG's production has decreased significantly this season while his scoring efficiency has stayed at the same low level. Beal hasn't exactly set the world on fire himself. I don't think either one of them has improved this season.

[hands11]

Agreed, we would be a 50+ win team with a competent GM.

What does that even mean ?

It means the rebuild would not have been as convoluted or painful with a competent GM. There is a reason he is ranked where he is...

But there it is a good debate - which FO was worse, the 26th or 24th ranked FO. Damning comparison.

That did come to mind when I was comparing the two. But CHA is doing better now and so are the Wizards. CHA isnt out of the woods yet but with Al Jefferson and Kemba Walker, they have a window.

Its MIA and everyone else. CHI with Rose, Noah, and Tibbs and the right move would be right up there though. Its amazing what they have been able to get done this year but they will be moving Boozer so they need a replacement. They have some reloading to do but I expect they will.

No reason CHA couldn't build a top 5 conference team next year from where they are. Ben Gordon comes off their books next year so they need another good FA pick up. If they can get that done, they can take another step while MKG continues to mature. Its been 10 years of build a team. You would hope they can eventually turn that into something.

I could see IND falling apart and needing to reload though.

As for PIF. Follow the thread. This conversation started with this post..."So the Cats took less time to return to the playoffs then the Wizards. " which I responded to. I didn't initiate the comparison.

I explained what was different and why that way of looking at it was flawed. CHA has never stopped rebuilding. They have been in the lottery 9 years of 10 years. They popped into the playoff for one year in 2010 so just counting from there isn't the same as the Wizards who were in the playoffs several years and had something completely unusual happen, which would be the combination of Gils injury, the gun thing, suspension and the owner passing away in which they did a complete reboot. That was a bit more to overcome then what CHA was dealing with.

CHA has had one over .500 season since they started in 2004. They have had 9 lottery picks. Other then that, they have been no better then 35 wins until this year. Its been a 10 year build.

That original post implied CHA have done a better job then the Wizards. I don't think the facts support that.

If you comment in return, I'm not interested in your spinning my post by putting words in my mouth regarding what you think I think which you almost always get wrong, which is why you are WOW'd. You are wow'd about things you make up, not my views. That the real WOW. Make something up and get outraged about it. Now where have I seen that playbook before?

[fishercob]

Biyombo has been a better player than Vesely. And MK-G has been a better player than BB so far -- or are we going to be forever looking only at how many points a player scores as the measure of his productivity?

PIF, on what basis have you determined that MKG has been a better player than Beal?

Presumably, win shares per 48 minutes.

[dckingsfan]

What does that even mean ?

It means the rebuild would not have been as convoluted or painful with a competent GM. There is a reason he is ranked where he is...

But there it is a good debate - which FO was worse, the 26th or 24th ranked FO. Damning comparison.

That original post implied CHA have done a better job then the Wizards. I don't think the facts support that.

That was my point... they are close (subjective) and both have poorly ranked FOs - this shouldn't startle anyone.

[DCZards]

Biyombo has been a better player than Vesely. And MK-G has been a better player than BB so far -- or are we going to be forever looking only at how many points a player scores as the measure of his productivity?

PIF, on what basis have you determined that MKG has been a better player than Beal?

Presumably, win shares per 48 minutes.

I'm not sure how the win shares/48 stuff works but the fact that it has Patty Mills ranked #16 and Paul George ranked #17 makes it kinda suspect when it comes to the ranking of individual players.

Last season, Win Shares/48 ranked Tiago Splitter ahead of Steph Curry, Tim Duncan, DeWayne Wade, Serge Ibaka and Chris Bosh.

[dckingsfan]

Biyombo has been a better player than Vesely. And MK-G has been a better player than BB so far -- or are we going to be forever looking only at how many points a player scores as the measure of his productivity?

PIF, on what basis have you determined that MKG has been a better player than Beal?

Presumably, win shares per 48 minutes.

I would still want Beal next to Wall to stretch the court. But I do see your point.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =ws_per_48

[closg00]

It means the rebuild would not have been as convoluted or painful with a competent GM. There is a reason he is ranked where he is...

But there it is a good debate - which FO was worse, the 26th or 24th ranked FO. Damning comparison.

That original post implied CHA have done a better job then the Wizards. I don't think the facts support that.

That was my point... they are close (subjective) and both have poorly ranked FOs - this shouldn't startle anyone.

No hands, the point re: CHA was that they (and other teams), took less time to return to relevancy than the Wizards, that is a fact.

[fishercob]

PIF, on what basis have you determined that MKG has been a better player than Beal?

Presumably, win shares per 48 minutes.

I'm not sure how the win shares/48 stuff works but the fact that it has Patty Mills ranked #16 and Paul George ranked #17 makes it kinda suspect when it comes to the ranking of individual players.

Last season, Win Shares/48 ranked Tiago Splitter ahead of Steph Curry, Tim Duncan, DeWayne Wade, Serge Ibaka and Chris Bosh.

I have the opposite reaction, Zards. Keep in mind that it's a per-minute (well, per 48 minute) metric, so you need to multiply it by minutes played to get a guy's total win shares.

But rather than find it "suspect" because it ranks this guy higher than what I would have thought, it more leads me to believe that there are less heralded guys out there who are really good. Mills is a prime example; I'd love to see the Wiz go after him hard this summer.

[DCZards]

I have the opposite reaction, Zards. Keep in mind that it's a per-minute (well, per 48 minute) metric, so you need to multiply it by minutes played to get a guy's total win shares.

But rather than find it "suspect" because it ranks this guy higher than what I would have thought, it more leads me to believe that there are less heralded guys out there who are really good. Mills is a prime example; I'd love to see the Wiz go after him hard this summer.

I agree on your last point Fish. There are underrated players whose value isn't always that obvious. Mills is a good example. My point though is that oftentimes statistical comparisons (whether its Win Share or something else) often don't tell the whole story.

[fishercob]

I have the opposite reaction, Zards. Keep in mind that it's a per-minute (well, per 48 minute) metric, so you need to multiply it by minutes played to get a guy's total win shares.

But rather than find it "suspect" because it ranks this guy higher than what I would have thought, it more leads me to believe that there are less heralded guys out there who are really good. Mills is a prime example; I'd love to see the Wiz go after him hard this summer.

I agree on your last point Fish. There are underrated players whose value isn't always that obvious. Mills is a good example. My point though is that oftentimes statistical comparisons (whether its Win Share or something else) often don't tell the whole story.

While I agree that no single metric tells "the whole story," I believe they tell enough of a story to be really important to take note of. I certainly don't think they can or should be dismissed because they rank one player ahead of others that our eyes and memories have told is is more important or significant. I like stats because they tell me what my eyes are not seeing. I'd never evaluate a player based on the eye test alone, just like I'd never evaluate one based purely on stats.