dice wrote:coincidence, perhaps. small sample size? i don't see how two different point guards can reasonably have such a big differential in how many times their TEAMMATES turn the ball over
Really? The accuracy of the passing as well as where the players are getting the ball has an effect on the turnovers. In fact, the perfect PG is passing the ball to a teammate when he can score right away without doing anything else, in that way, the only thing between making and not making a basket is "how well does he shot". When a PG passes the ball to a player in his sweet spot, he will likely have a higher scoring efficiency. Also, when a player does not need to dribble the ball or gets the ball passed to when he is not in a "crowded" area, he will likely turn the ball over less. Hinrich is better at passing in terms of accuracy and timing, making it overall easier for a player to handle the ball. And Hinrich is doing that for years better than Augustin, that is not just coincedence. With the same players on the court, those teammates are in average more efficient and less turnover prone with Hinrich instead of Augustin. That is a fact!
dice wrote:i'm not gonna argue for a second that d.j. has the intangibles that hinrich does. just that he's better offensively than hinrich. by a significant margin
Nope, Augustin is better as a scorer, but that's all he is better at. The effect on his teammates is worse overall than for Hinrich, but his better own scoring is still making him an overall slightly better offensive player. Don't confuse such scoring with "per se better". If Augustin is that great, why are the Bulls are still clearly worse offensively than average? Everyone else just sucks in his role? Do you really not see the incredible great difference between Rose and Augustin in terms of running an offense that you believe that Augustin is somehow a really good offensive PG?
Keller61 wrote:DJ has to play in the unit with Tony Snell and Nazr Mohammed. Kirk does not. Kirk also shares almost all of his minutes with Noah, while DJ plays the minutes when Noah is on the bench.
I'm talking about numbers adjusted for the teammates, so don't come up with such nonsense reply.
LoveDaBoo wrote:Normally, I'm pro-stats. But I have to agree with Dice here. I've watched all the Bulls games. There's simply no way Augustin has been one of the worst Bulls. He's clearly been one of the best. Maybe he's the best outlier there is for this stat. But really, if anyone who has watched this team thinks it functions better with Hinrich... well, I don't know what they're watching.
Don't confuse the "own scoring" with "the team is functioning better". With Augustin on the court and no Hinrich, Boozer for examples has a 6.2 percentage points lower TS% and a 0.4 percentage points higher TOV% in comparison to his time with Hinrich and without Augustin. Jimmy Butler has -2.3 on TS% and +0.9 in TOV% under those conditions. In average a player with Augustin and without Hinrich scores about 1 percentage point lower in terms of efficiency and has a 1 percentage point higher TOV% than with Hinrich and without Augustin on the court.
We saw a similar effect last season with Nate Robinson. I think people simply don't appreciate the differences in terms of running an offense, and confuse better scoring and some assists with "per se better offense". And yeah, just "watching games", when the focus of the presentation is basically only on scoring, will not show you the difference.
Anyway, to make that clear again, the Bulls still have a better overall offense with Augustin, due to the fact that Hinrich is clearly a worse scorer, but that makes overall just 0.6 points per 100 poss and the team is way below average offensively with Augustin in and Hinrich out. Btw, Augustin has also less turnovers when Hinrich is in, and when both are on the court the Bulls are playing much better offensively.
