OT: Is Dirk top 12 of all time??

[three2theD]

It's too difficult to definitively compare across eras and big guys vs little guys etc. There's no PF I'd clearly take over Dirk besides Duncan though. They all have their stronger points but what I think sets Dirk apart ever so slightly from a Malone or Garnett is end of game you without a doubt want the ball in his hands, you can't fully trust those other guys.

I forgot about Duncan. He's ahead of Dirk, for sure.

My PF list:

1)Duncan
2)Dirk
3)Malone
4)KG
5)Barkley

[NormanTwain]

1) Jordan
2) Wilt
3) Russel
4) Oscar
5) Kobe
6) Kareem
7) Shaq
8) Lebron
9) Magic
10) Bird
11) Baylor
12) West
13) Hakeem
14) Pippen
15) Dirk
16) Malone (Karl)
17) Robinson
18) Dr. J
19) Ewing
20) Garnet

Hopefully this isn't in order, because if it is, it's incredibly off.

Lol @ Ewing and Baylor in the top 20.

Okay, lets see your top 20

I take several categories into account, MVPs, FMVPs, DPOY awards, PER in the regular season and playoffs, WS per 48 in the regular season and in the playoffs, NBA Championships, and lastly playoff success, and I come up with these players in my top 10.

Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Russell, Bird, LeBron, Duncan, Shaq, and Hakeem.

You have people who use criteria such as who they felt was tougher, or who they would go to with the game on the line, or who scored a certain amount of PPG that one half season, and how much potential they had for doing it again (like that guy who thinks Bernard King is anywhere near a top 20 list), or who revolutionized the sport or their position. Now I'm not saying that these criteria are irrelevant, but they don't really matter if you're trying to be as objective as possible.

I won't really bother spending time naming another 10, or putting them in order, but those that (going by my criteria) fail to make the top 10, but are definitely in the top 20 are Oscar, Kobe, Moses, and West.

[duetta]

Patrick is ahead of Dirk - better offensively, much greater impact on defense, better rebounder.

[Meloholic]

I'll probably go with these guys as my top 15 all-time is

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5. Oscar Roberston
6. Elgin Baylor
7. Bob Pettit
8. Larry Bird
9. Magic Johnson
10. Jerry West
11. Shaquile Oneal
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Lebron James
14. Julius Erving
15. Charles Barkley


Yes, yes, boo on Lebron James but if you put James numbers and wins against any of these guys on the list, he belongs. His 840 games and over 33,000 minutes played would put him in the pack of the current list of guys who are in the last official "top 50" poll so I don't buy the "he hasn't played enough" argument that some will have. With a 25.1ppg, 6.6rpg, 6.3apg, 1.6spg at near 50% from the field...and career winning percentage in the .640 range. If we are talking Duncan and Nowitzki, we should be talking James.

Duncan and Nowitzki IMO would be in the 16-25 range along with guys like George Gervin, Bob Cousy, David Robinson, Rick Barry, Isiah Thomas, etc.

Guys like Bill Walton, George Mikan and even Bernard King were game changing type players during their prime but just did not have long enough careers to really make the type of impact in terms of the all time greats that they probably could have been.

A guy like Durant will also likely cement himself as one of the all time greats by the end assuming he can remain healthy.

Lebron actually should be top 10. He has won 4 MVPs and 2 NBA titles. Possibly a 3rd one this year. Kobe is not top 15? Duncan has to be top 10

[gavran]

Patrick is ahead of Dirk - better offensively, much greater impact on defense, better rebounder.

That is a huge no.

[Hijinks]

surprised this topic has been going on for this long. hope dirk has another playoff run in him this year.

[duetta]

Patrick is ahead of Dirk - better offensively, much greater impact on defense, better rebounder.

That is a huge no.

Get real. Patrick could dominate a game on both ends.

[gavran]

Patrick is ahead of Dirk - better offensively, much greater impact on defense, better rebounder.

That is a huge no.

Get real. Patrick could dominate a game on both ends.

And Dirk is one of the best offensive player to ever step on the court. Ewing is nowhere near him on offence.

[duetta]

And Dirk is one of the best offensive player to ever step on the court. Ewing is nowhere near him on offence.

Funny, but the statistical record does not support your claim. And Patrick played back in the era when extremely physical forms of defense were still allowed, like hand-checking. I'd like to see how Nowitzki (not to mention Anthony) would do facing a steady diet of physical defense from the likes of Anthony Mason.

[gavran]

Every statistical record supports it, as well as eye test, stop being nostalgic. The arguement about one playing in a different era, therefore he should be ranked differently is a terrible argument, as every player should be viewed in the era he plays. I could also say the Ewing would only play 30 minutes a night in this era, as he would he in constant foul trouble. Makes no sense.

[Ignitowsky]

And Dirk is one of the best offensive player to ever step on the court. Ewing is nowhere near him on offence.

Funny, but the statistical record does not support your claim. And Patrick played back in the era when extremely physical forms of defense were still allowed, like hand-checking. I'd like to see how Nowitzki (not to mention Anthony) would do facing a steady diet of physical defense from the likes of Anthony Mason.

Dirk also played in the "Golden Era" of centers with guys like Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Mourning, Deke being regular competition for him. Even guys like Smits, Divac, Campbell and Daugherty would be better than almost any center playing in today's game.

PS Baylor not being on almost anyone's list means that almost no one ever saw him play.

PPS I somehow turned Drik into Prick. Maybe it was my spellchecker I like Dirk and I don't think he's a prick.

[duetta]

Prick also played in the "Golden Era" of centers with guys like Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Mourning, Deke being regular competition for him. Even guys like Smits, Divac, Campbell and Daugherty would be better than almost any center playing in today's game.

Yep. The only things that prevented Ewing from winning multiple rings were Jordan, Hakeem, and an idiot named Scotty Stirling (who made the moronic trades that ultimately cost the Knicks the ability to draft Scotty Pippin).

[duetta]

I could also say the Ewing would only play 30 minutes a night in this era, as he would he in constant foul trouble. Makes no sense.

Right. Because the big men of this era are oh so intimidating...

[dakomish23]

Dirk is better than KG IMO. He did it with a team with no other all stars and players passed their prime while KG did it with two HOF's.

Also, if not for him MIA wins their first year together. MIA was supposed to be one of the greatest teams of all time and I've never seen so much hype in my life. It's as if we all won that year:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqMboJVqNZg[/youtube]

[vallen]

I'd say top 5.


As for putting Chuck above Dirk - why? I'm too young to remember much/anything about Chuck, but from what I have read / watched, he was a great offensive player and rebounder, but not a particularly good defender.

Barkley was a mediocre defender but so is Dirk. Also Dirk is a below avg rebounder for his size

Dirk isn't a mediocre defender. Watch his team defense. It's pretty damn good. His rebounding is poor because he's usually on the perimeter. If I remember correctly, his defensive rebounding % is good; it's his offensive % that kills it.

people also dont realize he was only 6 ft 6 inches with sneakers. 6 5 without. he had the weight to bang, but his lack of blocks gave him a bad rap, because he was always able to intimidate, and alter shots against taller opponents almost daily..he was a warrior ill give him that..

[vallen]

Prick also played in the "Golden Era" of centers with guys like Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Mourning, Deke being regular competition for him. Even guys like Smits, Divac, Campbell and Daugherty would be better than almost any center playing in today's game.

Yep. The only things that prevented Ewing from winning multiple rings were Jordan, Hakeem, and an idiot named Scotty Stirling (who made the moronic trades that ultimately cost the Knicks the ability to draft Scotty Pippin).

and maybe his missed layup..who knows ?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq3nvSyuWEg[/youtube]

[Thugger HBC]

Dirk is better than KG IMO. He did it with a team with no other all stars and players passed their prime while KG did it with two HOF's.

[NormanTwain]

Dirk is better than KG IMO. He did it with a team with no other all stars and players passed their prime while KG did it with two HOF's.

Kidd was 37 years old, not an All-Star that season, and nowhere near his prime, which was about 10 years earlier. That doesn't take away from his contribution, but the point stands.

Dirk carried a bunch of role players to an NBA title.

KG was known as an underachiever/chocker in Minny, and the title was a direct result of his collaboration with Pierce and Allen.

[Thugger HBC]

Dirk is better than KG IMO. He did it with a team with no other all stars and players passed their prime while KG did it with two HOF's.

Kidd was 37 years old, not an All-Star that season, and nowhere near his prime, which was about 10 years earlier. That doesn't take away from his contribution, but the point stands.

Dirk carried a bunch of role players to an NBA title.

KG was known as an underachiever/chocker in Minny, and the title was a direct result of his collaboration with Pierce and Allen.

Read the posters post again, is Kidd going to the HOF? Yes, he is, and Kidd was like fine wine that year regardless of his age.

Both KG and Ray Allen were passed their prime when they got to Boston as well as their best years was well behind them....but their games meshed well and they aged well together.

Dirk had help, but he also played great as well, but if he just "carried" guys...why he wasnt carrying anyone all
the other years?

[dakomish23]

Dirk is better than KG IMO. He did it with a team with no other all stars and players passed their prime while KG did it with two HOF's.

I meant still in their primes. Kidd was still solid but he was a few years removed from his great years