OT: Is Dirk top 12 of all time??

[Big_Apple]

Very true, and while I do think Dirk is a great player his championship definitely seem to propel him to heights he dont belong, he certainly wasnt viewed as top 10 prior to, whereas KG was always in that discussion.

Garnett was a dominant and complete player, I'd say Dirk and KG are probably even as far as ability to score, but the other facets it's KG and Dirk should not be discussed.

To put it in perspective Dirk has taken well over 3000 more threes than KG, but total career point dont reflect any of them.

KG isnt even in the same league as Dirk when it comes to scoring with all due respect to KG.

KG's all-around game especially on defense is his main argument for being greater than Dirk which is a valid argument, but despite KG's efficiency etc, he was never a go-to scorer nor was he capable of being one which is often a neglected point. Dirk most certainly was a go-to scorer which is his trump card over KG.

I think KG's defense and all-around game versus Dirk's defense is greater than Dirk's offensive superiority over KG. In short, I think KG was the slightly better overall player but not by much.

You dont score 25000+ plus points in the NBA without being primary scorer, and KG's jumper is very much on the level of Dirks' and thats on top of being the teams best defender and defensive anchor in the paint rebounder and in alot of cases the playmaker, things Dirk never had to worry about.

If KG only was about to just score.....

Sorry man but you really have to clarify your post.

I agree with everything else. Dirk's 3 point shot sets his jumper apart from KG and maybe its recency bias, but I don't remember KG ever being able to make a 20 footer when he was guarded really tightly, while Dirk's one leg step back has always allowed him to create space.

[dakomish23]

My post doesnt mention Pierce, and I dont think Ray made that list since 2005 which is three years prior, not one, and even then he only made it twice for his career and was never 1st team.

are you debating these guys werent past their primes when they joined together? I hope not.

That's exactly what I'm saying. I was wrong about the all - nba timing but these guys were def still in their primes. You're saying that 7 seasons ago including this year they were passed their primes?? I hope you're joking!

06-07:
Pierce 25 ppg 6 rpg 4 apg
Allen 26 ppg 5 rpg 4 apg

07-08 was 11th yr for Allen and 10th for Pierce.

Carmelo is currently in his 11th season. Same for Lebron. Are they out of their primes??

Rays prime was ending when the other facets of his game went down.

To truly establish prime is to recall a players peak and scope the years before and after that peak....Rays peak was 2001 to roughly 2003...his Bucks years. Ray may have produced numbers in Seattle but his efficiency fell across most areas, certainly his last two years...for instance his 26 ppg in last Seattle year doesnt compare to his last two full years with the Bucks, and thats just shooting.

I really havent used years of service in any of my points, not sure the purpose of establishing that now.

If you think the Ray Allen in Seattle was passed his prime then there's no pt in arguing it anymore. I def do not think that. Arguably his best year was that 50 win team that went to the 2nd rd.

I define prime as the start of steep ascent to the bottom the same mountain. I think 2-3 years after that it tails off. Like Dirk's career is tailing off now which should speak volumes about how tremendous he was in his prime. Primes for HOF superstars tend to last longer obviously.

[Thugger HBC]

KG isnt even in the same league as Dirk when it comes to scoring with all due respect to KG.

KG's all-around game especially on defense is his main argument for being greater than Dirk which is a valid argument, but despite KG's efficiency etc, he was never a go-to scorer nor was he capable of being one which is often a neglected point. Dirk most certainly was a go-to scorer which is his trump card over KG.

I think KG's defense and all-around game versus Dirk's defense is greater than Dirk's offensive superiority over KG. In short, I think KG was the slightly better overall player but not by much.

You dont score 25000+ plus points in the NBA without being primary scorer, and KG's jumper is very much on the level of Dirks' and thats on top of being the teams best defender and defensive anchor in the paint rebounder and in alot of cases the playmaker, things Dirk never had to worry about.

If KG only was about to just score.....

Sorry man but you really have to clarify your post.

I agree with everything else. Dirk's 3 point shot sets his jumper apart from KG and maybe its recency bias, but I don't remember KG ever being able to make a 20 footer when he was guarded really tightly, while Dirk's one leg step back has always allowed him to create space.

I would suspect a player that has taken more than 3000 more shots in a certain spot on the floor might be better in that area, but in terms of jumpers there's data to support the claim that should confirm the player we both saw...

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Kevin%20Garnett

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Dirk%20Nowitzki

They arent apart in terms of their jump shots, but I agree they shot them differently.

KG has a vast array of moves to get his shots off to the point he was virtually unguardble even when facing up, and that was due to his incredible footwork and athleticism.

And thats on top of shoulder fakes, spin moves, drop steps and fadeaways....and high release for a 7 footer.

Now while I'm not accusing you of this, I am noticing that most havent watched KG's entire career...he scored so easy most wondered why he wouldnt score more, but it wasnt him, he always wanted to be the great teammate.

[Thugger HBC]

That's exactly what I'm saying. I was wrong about the all - nba timing but these guys were def still in their primes. You're saying that 7 seasons ago including this year they were passed their primes?? I hope you're joking!

06-07:
Pierce 25 ppg 6 rpg 4 apg
Allen 26 ppg 5 rpg 4 apg

07-08 was 11th yr for Allen and 10th for Pierce.

Carmelo is currently in his 11th season. Same for Lebron. Are they out of their primes??

Rays prime was ending when the other facets of his game went down.

To truly establish prime is to recall a players peak and scope the years before and after that peak....Rays peak was 2001 to roughly 2003...his Bucks years. Ray may have produced numbers in Seattle but his efficiency fell across most areas, certainly his last two years...for instance his 26 ppg in last Seattle year doesnt compare to his last two full years with the Bucks, and thats just shooting.

I really havent used years of service in any of my points, not sure the purpose of establishing that now.

If you think the Ray Allen in Seattle was passed his prime then there's no pt in arguing it anymore. I def do not think that. Arguably his best year was that 50 win team that went to the 2nd rd.

I define prime as the start of steep ascent to the bottom the same mountain. I think 2-3 years after that it tails off. Like Dirk's career is tailing off now which should speak volumes about how tremendous he was in his prime. Primes for HOF superstars tend to last longer obviously.

I made it little bit larger, i was specifically comparing his Bucks years to those last two seasons in Seattle.

[dakomish23]

Rays prime was ending when the other facets of his game went down.

To truly establish prime is to recall a players peak and scope the years before and after that peak....Rays peak was 2001 to roughly 2003...his Bucks years. Ray may have produced numbers in Seattle but his efficiency fell across most areas, certainly his last two years...for instance his 26 ppg in last Seattle year doesnt compare to his last two full years with the Bucks, and thats just shooting.

I really havent used years of service in any of my points, not sure the purpose of establishing that now.

If you think the Ray Allen in Seattle was passed his prime then there's no pt in arguing it anymore. I def do not think that. Arguably his best year was that 50 win team that went to the 2nd rd.

I define prime as the start of steep ascent to the bottom the same mountain. I think 2-3 years after that it tails off. Like Dirk's career is tailing off now which should speak volumes about how tremendous he was in his prime. Primes for HOF superstars tend to last longer obviously.

I made it little bit larger, i was specifically comparing his Bucks years to those last two seasons in Seattle.

I underlined what I'm referring to

[Thugger HBC]

If you think the Ray Allen in Seattle was passed his prime then there's no pt in arguing it anymore. I def do not think that. Arguably his best year was that 50 win team that went to the 2nd rd.

I define prime as the start of steep ascent to the bottom the same mountain. I think 2-3 years after that it tails off. Like Dirk's career is tailing off now which should speak volumes about how tremendous he was in his prime. Primes for HOF superstars tend to last longer obviously.

I made it little bit larger, i was specifically comparing his Bucks years to those last two seasons in Seattle.

I underlined what I'm referring to

Then you didnt read it, that period i stated of his Bucks years was his peak, not his entire prime, I even explained his prime, it surrounds those years which were clearly his best.

[ibraheim718]

That may be due to playing with Pierce and Allen.... no, maybe? Just earlier that year in Minny he led the league in rebounds, and had a top 5 career scoring and blocks season; but a few months later, according to you, he's out of his prime.

Deferring, now = past prime.

It has nothing to do with deferring. After that last year in Minny KG was done trying to carry a team. Compare his numbers when Spree and Cassell were his teammates to his numbers when Pierce and Allen were his teammates. The Allen and Pierce combination put up roughly 36ppg that first year together with KG... Cassell and Spree put up roughly 36ppg... so what KG didn't defer to Spree and Cassell? Then how did their offensive output equal Pierce and Allen??? KG though put up 24ppg with similar offensive output from Cassell and Spree... according to you not deferring but he only put up 18.8 per with the Pierce and Allen. Why? The deferring excuse doesn't hold weight here. His offensive output just flat out declined.

You must have missed him during the playoffs (when he was fortunate enough to be there) in Minnesota. Then again, everyone on his team did as well.

Do you want me to post his teammates and the teams he went up against? Do you really want me to waste my time. He played in a Western Conference that was more loaded than it is now.. went up against some all time great teams and players like Shaq and Duncan while their teams were loaded and weren't coached by Flip Effing Saunders.

They would have lost in the first round just like every other KG led team. It's as if you've never seen the guy in the post season/or the 4th quarter in Minnesota. KG is easily one of the most overrated players in the history of the league. He's a very good player, but he's a Robin.

Nope. sorry. try again. I remember when his top two running mates were Troy Hudson and Wally Sczerbiak.. Still coached by Flip Effing Saunders. Going up against Phil, Kobe, and Shaq and Duncan, Popovich etc..

They took one of the greatest Lakers teams in history to 6 games in a first round playoff series... YES WITH TROY HUDSON AND WALLY SCZERBIAK AND AGAIN WITH FLIP EFFING SAUNDERS... let that register in your brain... Think about it. That in itself is a huge feat.

[dakomish23]

I made it little bit larger, i was specifically comparing his Bucks years to those last two seasons in Seattle.

I underlined what I'm referring to

Then you didnt read it, that period i stated of his Bucks years was his peak, not his entire prime, I even explained his prime, it surrounds those years which were clearly his best.

So back to the original thought - you think Allen was passed his prime the 1st year with the C's?

[Thugger HBC]

I underlined what I'm referring to

Then you didnt read it, that period i stated of his Bucks years was his peak, not his entire prime, I even explained his prime, it surrounds those years which were clearly his best.

So back to the original thought - you think Allen was passed his prime the 1st year with the C's?

Yes.

[ibraheim718]

Then you didnt read it, that period i stated of his Bucks years was his peak, not his entire prime, I even explained his prime, it surrounds those years which were clearly his best.

So back to the original thought - you think Allen was passed his prime the 1st year with the C's?

Yes.

HBC check it...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2953

[Thugger HBC]

So back to the original thought - you think Allen was passed his prime the 1st year with the C's?

Yes.

HBC check it...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2953

i cant see the graphs for some reason but this statement in the article seems to describe exactly what I said about Ray Allen....

"I think the guards are the most interesting, because some peak as early as age 25, some peak at the conventional 27, and some even hang around to peak as late as age 32! Among guards who played more than 1 season of at least 2000 MP, here's the distribution of peak seasons by age:"

Here's another interesting tidbit: those who peaked early (before age 26) burned themselves out too soon -- they performed a half a win worse per season from age 30 on than their normal-aging counterparts, averaging 6.84 WS3K after the big 3-0 (as opposed to 7.33 for everyone else)."

There's a reason why I focus on peaks, they define the player at their absolute best...whereas prime on casts a scaling period.

But I will say one thing...if someone is surprised to see Ray Allen dunk, then they havent seen prime Ray Allen because he used to do it on the regular back in the day.

But the main thing for Ray was his durability and once he lost that it changed his game overall.

[NormanTwain]

It has nothing to do with deferring. After that last year in Minny KG was done trying to carry a team. Compare his numbers when Spree and Cassell were his teammates to his numbers when Pierce and Allen were his teammates. The Allen and Pierce combination put up roughly 36ppg that first year together with KG... Cassell and Spree put up roughly 36ppg... so what KG didn't defer to Spree and Cassell? Then how did their offensive output equal Pierce and Allen??? KG though put up 24ppg with similar offensive output from Cassell and Spree... according to you not deferring but he only put up 18.8 per with the Pierce and Allen. Why? The deferring excuse doesn't hold weight here. His offensive output just flat out declined.

Read these two sentences again, and then read everything you wrote after. It's as if you yourself, don't agree with yourself. It's pretty fascinating actually.

If you're looking at '03-'04, because that is the only year that Spree + Cassell scored a combined 36 PPG, then you need to look no further than KG averaging 19.6 FGA a game on 50% shooting. In Boston he took only 13.9, on 54% shooting. Hope this cleared things up for you. A clear example of him deferring.... but it has nothing to do with deferring right?

Do you want me to post his teammates and the teams he went up against? Do you really want me to waste my time. He played in a Western Conference that was more loaded than it is now.. went up against some all time great teams and players like Shaq and Duncan while their teams were loaded and weren't coached by Flip Effing Saunders.

No thanks, I watched the games.

Nope. sorry. try again. I remember when his top two running mates were Troy Hudson and Wally Sczerbiak.. Still coached by Flip Effing Saunders. Going up against Phil, Kobe, and Shaq and Duncan, Popovich etc..

They took one of the greatest Lakers teams in history to 6 games in a first round playoff series... YES WITH TROY HUDSON AND WALLY SCZERBIAK AND AGAIN WITH FLIP EFFING SAUNDERS... let that register in your brain... Think about it. That in itself is a huge feat.

There's nothing to try. I'm stating facts, and you're getting emotional typing in caps. You're due for a brisk walk. KG was a regular season individual wonder, and a team and post season disaster. Had it not been for the move to Boston and a Mr. Paul Pierce, he likely would have never even seen a 2nd round of the playoffs again.

Losing to the Lakers in the 1st round is a huge feat now?

Spoiler:

Look at Lebron's Cavs, Hakeem's Rockets, Dirk's Mavericks, Kidd's Nets, etc. There are plenty of examples of Superstars actually living up to that title, by carrying can teams deep into the playoffs and/or winning titles. KG isn't one of them.

[DaddyCool19]

Top 3 PF
Somewhere between Top 15-20 Player of All Time

[MaseInYourFace]

Those KG Minny teams towards the tail end of his run there were pretty good. Good all-around teams. Well coached and fun to watch. They weren't bad teams. I know looking at the roster now it looks like a joke but guys like Troy Hudson and Scerbiak were not bad players at the time.

Ewing is a bit underrated, not saying he's top 20. But he was an all time great offensive center, very skilled, and is generally underrated defensively.

[ibraheim718]

It has nothing to do with deferring. After that last year in Minny KG was done trying to carry a team. Compare his numbers when Spree and Cassell were his teammates to his numbers when Pierce and Allen were his teammates. The Allen and Pierce combination put up roughly 36ppg that first year together with KG... Cassell and Spree put up roughly 36ppg... so what KG didn't defer to Spree and Cassell? Then how did their offensive output equal Pierce and Allen??? KG though put up 24ppg with similar offensive output from Cassell and Spree... according to you not deferring but he only put up 18.8 per with the Pierce and Allen. Why? The deferring excuse doesn't hold weight here. His offensive output just flat out declined.

Read these two sentences again, and then read everything you wrote after. It's as if you yourself, don't agree with yourself. It's pretty fascinating actually.

If you're looking at '03-'04, because that is the only year that Spree + Cassell scored a combined 36 PPG, then you need to look no further than KG averaging 19.6 FGA a game on 50% shooting. In Boston he took only 13.9, on 54% shooting. Hope this cleared things up for you. A clear example of him deferring.... but it has nothing to do with deferring right?

Do you want me to post his teammates and the teams he went up against? Do you really want me to waste my time. He played in a Western Conference that was more loaded than it is now.. went up against some all time great teams and players like Shaq and Duncan while their teams were loaded and weren't coached by Flip Effing Saunders.

No thanks, I watched the games.

Nope. sorry. try again. I remember when his top two running mates were Troy Hudson and Wally Sczerbiak.. Still coached by Flip Effing Saunders. Going up against Phil, Kobe, and Shaq and Duncan, Popovich etc..

They took one of the greatest Lakers teams in history to 6 games in a first round playoff series... YES WITH TROY HUDSON AND WALLY SCZERBIAK AND AGAIN WITH FLIP EFFING SAUNDERS... let that register in your brain... Think about it. That in itself is a huge feat.

There's nothing to try. I'm stating facts, and you're getting emotional typing in caps. You're due for a brisk walk. KG was a regular season individual wonder, and a team and post season disaster. Had it not been for the move to Boston and a Mr. Paul Pierce, he likely would have never even seen a 2nd round of the playoffs again.

Losing to the Lakers in the 1st round is a huge feat now?

Spoiler:

Look at Lebron's Cavs, Hakeem's Rockets, Dirk's Mavericks, Kidd's Nets, etc. There are plenty of examples of Superstars actually living up to that title, by carrying can teams deep into the playoffs and/or winning titles. KG isn't one of them.

Give me a damn break..

All his numbers were down... every single one of them. Doc was monitoring his minutes from day 1 because he was out of gas from trying to carry Minny. That's not what one would call exactly in his prime and sure as hell not peak performance.

I suggest watching the games again. Because you sure as hell couldn't grasp what you were watching the first time.

Lebron's cavs were in weak eastern conference... ditto with Kidd... and Dirk was surrounded by maxed out payrolls and HOF coaches. Stop.

[CoolKids]

I think he's just outside top 15. I mean very barely outside. On same tier as Malone and KG - maybe slightly above. Also, LeBron isn't 7...not anymore, at least.

Is Lebron higher or lower than 7?

I'd say top 5.


As for putting Chuck above Dirk - why? I'm too young to remember much/anything about Chuck, but from what I have read / watched, he was a great offensive player and rebounder, but not a particularly good defender.

yea not like dirk

[ibraheim718]

Those KG Minny teams towards the tail end of his run there were pretty good. Good all-around teams. Well coached and fun to watch. They weren't bad teams. I know looking at the roster now it looks like a joke but guys like Troy Hudson and Scerbiak were not bad players at the time.

Ewing is a bit underrated, not saying he's top 20. But he was an all time great offensive center, very skilled, and is generally underrated defensively.

Don't matter though because they went up against legendary players and coaches like I said. And Saunders was terrible.. you couldn't compare him to Jax, Pop... or heck even Don Nelson.

Ewing>Dirk all day everyday. Throughout most of Dirk's career he rebounded like a 3 and leaned heavily on his J. It wasn't until he made himself a net-neutral defender and net-positive play maker did they win and even then his coach's in game decisions and the guard penetration and shooting trumped whatever Dirk did throughout that championship run. Heck even Tyson.. do they win that chip without Tyson there to contest at the bucket?

[NormanTwain]

Give me a damn break..

I'm trying to, but I can't carry you to the finish line. You need to put in some work on your own.

All his numbers were down... every single one of them.

Except for his FG%, which went up to a career high, his eFG%, which also went up to a career high, his TS%, which came 2nd to his career high (all of which were due to deferring to a ball dominant Pierce, and becoming a second option on offense), his steals, which went up from the previous year (even though he was playing 7 less minutes per game), his PER, which went up from the previous year, and his WS/48, which came second to a career high that he posted 4 years earlier. But every single one of them went down, am I right?

Spoiler:

Then come the playoffs, and playing amongst 2 other prime HoFs, he puts up an effortless 20 and 10.

Doc was monitoring his minutes from day 1 because he was out of gas from trying to carry Minny. That's not what one would call exactly in his prime and sure as hell not peak performance.

So according to you, monitoring a players minutes in the regular season = Player no longer in prime.

Lol @ you speaking for KG. "He was out of gas". That's why the first time Boston tried to acquire him, KG nixed the trade, and said he had no interest in leaving Minnesota. So out of gas from carrying the team, that he wouldn't leave.

Spoiler:

The fact that Doc only had to play KG 33 Mins per game in the regular season, is a testament to the team.

I suggest watching the games again. Because you sure as hell couldn't grasp what you were watching the first time.

You're not really in a position to be suggesting anything. You're claiming that losing to an '03 and '04 Fat Shaq Lakers in the 1st round is a huge feat.

Truly the epitome of modern day achievements for KG; getting Snaquille Oatmeal'd in the 1st round.

Lebron's cavs were in weak eastern conference... ditto with Kidd... and Dirk was surrounded by maxed out payrolls and HOF coaches. Stop.

Weak Eastern Conference with one of the greatest defensive teams in the history of the league, Pistons, who Lebron had to battle every year.

Getting to the NBA Finals 2 years in a row, when your 2nd and 3rd best players are Richard Jefferson and Kenyon Martin (or was it Kittles? or Van Horn? what a joke of a team), is truly astounding, no matter the conference.

Dirk has been playing with inferior rosters his entire career. The amount that they were over-payed for their skills is irrelevant. The Knicks are playing with a maxed out (and then some) payroll this year aren't they.... where are they know?

You want West Coast players, sure. Aside from Dirk (for whom you can make all the payroll excuses you want, but is still universally known for taking historically inferior rosters to the NBA FInals), How about Hakeem's Rockets? Drexler's Blazers? Moses' Rockets?

Forget Finals appearances. KG missed 3 consecutive playoff appearances in his absolute prime (and got bounced in the 1st round 7 out of the 8 times that he did manage to make the playoffs). That's downright embarrassing for a player of his supposed caliber. Then one year later, he teams up with 2 other HoFers in their primes and immediately wins an NBA title playing second fiddle. No better example of a Robin.

You're drowning and I'm throwing you a life preserver, but you're refusing to take it.

[ibraheim718]

You're drowning and I'm throwing you a life preserver, but you're refusing to take it.

So in your opinion when did he start to exit his prime? The year after when his PPG dropped another 4 points making a total of 8 points in two years. Or do you have more bull**it reasoning?

FG%? Steve Nash at 37 years of age recorded his best FG% in his career... What was he in his prime at 37 also?

[spree2kawhi]

Putting LeBron over Shaq, Duncan and Kobe is **** into their faces. Also, there are no better Power Forwards in the history of the game than #1 Duncan and then #2 Nowitzki.
Anyone who puts Pippen or Malone (to name only the most ridiculous choices) ahead of Dirk or Duncan needs a punch. That said, Duncan is a top 5 player in the league, Nowitzki might very well be top 12...