DFerry needs to make a BOLD Move to improve our Talent

[PandaKidd]

Man, the thought of Kyrie at age 25/26 as a Hawk in his prime years has me psyched. Ironically, I worry we don't have nearly enough assets to acquire him, as a number of teams will be pursuing him. Philly has multiple lottery picks and take back lots of salary. Denver has Ty Lawson and a lottery pick. Orlando, New Orleans, Boston, Utah could all offer packages greater than what we could. And once the bidding begins, it could get outrageous.

Who's more of a sure thing at this point:

Andrew Wiggins or Kyrie Irving?

I dont think people will offer that much for him, hes young, hes not totally proven, but people can sign him outright in a year. He can just sit out.

All those teams would draft draft draft, and then try to offer a max next year.

$7,070,730 is his salary, he makes LESS than Teague right now, and is due a max. Do you want to pay him 18-20 million a year? (CP3 money) Not sure hes worth that yet, could be, not sure though.

Be a HELL of a gamble.

I would take him for the right price, we hold ALL the leverage. he can sit in CLE for another year and be miserable, or , he can be traded and sign a max/ext with whoever he goes to.

he and love have a lot in common, their respective teams are going to have to decide what to do with them NOW, or lose them for nothing

Teams tanked this year for a reason. They will offer as little as possible, because CLE has nothing in their favor. They HAVE to deal him if hes not going to resign

[ATLHawksfan21]

Kyrie definitely has talent but I'm not ready to give up on Teague just yet. Especially if his replacement is going to cost twice as much. I want to see if Teague can keep up this pace in the playoffs. If he does, I want him back next season bc he is a steal at 8 million for his current output.

I suppose that's a worthy course of action. But it sounds frighteningly familiar to the response I used to get when I proposed trading josh at his peak as well...

"Let's hold on to him just a bit longer."

I retract my previous statement, you convinced me.

However, Teague+1 pick is all you need, not 2. and no first rounder. Theyll lose Kyrie for far less if he stays.

Man, the thought of Kyrie at age 25/26 as a Hawk in his prime years has me psyched. Ironically, I worry we don't have nearly enough assets to acquire him, as a number of teams will be pursuing him. Philly has multiple lottery picks and take back lots of salary. Denver has Ty Lawson and a lottery pick. Orlando, New Orleans, Boston, Utah could all offer packages greater than what we could. And once the bidding begins, it could get outrageous.

Who's more of a sure thing at this point:

Andrew Wiggins or Kyrie Irving?

I would say the situations are completely different. This is the third year starting for both Teague and Kyrie. Josh Smith spent 9 years starting for us and the big push from the fans to move him didnt start until a year or two ago when he was 7-8 years into starting and he had clearly reached his max potential by then. Teague hasn't reached his max potential and has shown great improvement during stretches while under Bud. Teague and Kyrie's stats have been almost similar this year and both have been inconsistent. Give Teague 4 more shots a game and he will average 20 a game like Kyrie. I just don't see why you are so willing to give up on Teague and pay a guy twice the salary when they have had similar production this season.

[PandaKidd]

Well I think its no question Kyrie's ceiling is potentially much much higher than teague.

I think teague scores a ton on floaters and penetration , kyrie is a straight up jump shooter. Different types of offense

Teague MAY be a better facilitator right now

Sent from my VS980 4G using RealGM Forums mobile app

[ATLHawksfan21]

Well I think its no question Kyrie's ceiling is potentially much much higher than teague.

I think teague scores a ton on floaters and penetration , kyrie is a straight up jump shooter. Different types of offense

Teague MAY be a better facilitator right now

Sent from my VS980 4G using RealGM Forums mobile app

Teague is most certainly a better facilitator currently as well as a better defender. Hes also a better athlete. Kylie is no doubt more skilled offensively though when it comes to handles and shooting

Sent from my SCH-I535 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[PandaKidd]

Im NOT sure Kyrie is worth a max contract, thats all im saying. I havent seen enough from him to say "CHRIS PAUL MONEY"

That team could have EASILY gotten to the playoffs this year, and they failed miserably, again.

Same with Love.

[Jamaaliver]

There was literally so much said in the last few posts that I'm not 100% in agreement with, I had to take a day to even figure out where to start. Ummm....

Josh Smith spent 9 years starting for us and the big push from the fans to move him didnt start until a year or two ago when he was 7-8 years into starting and he had clearly reached his max potential by then.

1. The archives here at REALGM go back approx 5 years. I have been advocating trading josh Smith for AT LEAST that long. I identified pretty early that Smoove was not a top player, had attitude issues, was inefficient, lazy, moody, inconsistent, undersized, etc. a long time ago. When he was putting up above average production as a 24 year old, I knew he was NOT destined for greatness, but instead was topping out. Noone believed me until it was too late. They all said the same thing: "Let's wait and see how good he can be."

They waited. And waited. And then the moment passed. And it was too late. I do not want this to happen with Teague.

We've seen him under multiple Head Coaches, in multiple systems, with a plethora of different teammates. It's pretty evident what caliber of player he is by now.

Teague and Kyrie's stats have been almost similar this year and both have been inconsistent.

2. Not saying I agree with this, but the statement sort of illustrates my point. Teague is having one of his best seasons. And Kyrie is already able to match (exceed?) it while being 4 years younger, in a terrible offensive system, under an overmatched Head Coach, with a poorly constructed roster. Just imagine what a kid like Kyrie could be at 25, in our system, next our vets. He could be unstoppable.

[Jamaaliver]

$7,070,730 is his salary, [Kyrie] makes LESS than Teague right now, and is due a max. Do you want to pay him 18-20 million a year?

3. Kyrie will make $9million+ next season in the last year of his rookie deal. If he signs a max extension afterwards, he'd start around $13million per year. At no point would his max deal pay him $18million per season. But for a young superstar in his prime, this is the going rate. You don't wait until he's an established superstar and THEN pursue...the cost would be too great. Both in salary and in trade cost.

I would take him for the right price, we hold ALL the leverage. he can sit in CLE for another year and be miserable, or , he can be traded and sign a max/ext with whoever he goes to.

4. Again, not entirely accurate. CLE controls KI for at least two more years as he will still be a restricted FA next summer. They'll trade him while THEY still have some leverage before the next trade deadline should he refuse to sign an extension.

I just don't see why you are so willing to give up on Teague and pay a guy twice the salary when they have had similar production this season.

5. Al Horford is in the 2nd tier of players. He's almost universally considered a top 25 player, but not a superstar. Teague is below that, somewhere in the 3rd tier of players. We all agree we need an influx of talent. A true superstar to really contend for a title. Kyrie Irving is on the verge of becoming this. He is projected to be a top 10 player in this league very soon and is still YEARS away from his prime. We've had adequate time to see what kind of players these guys are going to be. Teague will be good. Is good. Kyrie could be GREAT. And having a guy of this caliber makes Free Agency so much easier as role players/vets would flock at the chance to play next to a superstar. He'd fill seats in Philips. KI could be a franchise altering type of acquisition. The status quo is pretty unacceptable.

[Jamaaliver]

Teague and Kyrie's stats have been almost similar this year and both have been inconsistent. Give Teague 4 more shots a game and he will average 20 a game like Kyrie.

I have to question this as well. Teague's production this year is more in line with guys like Kyle Lowery, Ty Lawson. Those are his peers as PGs who are borderline All Stars.

Kyrie's production is more akin to Russ Westbrook, John Wall. He's closer to those elite PGs. And a really telling statistical comparison: Derrick Rose at age 21 compared to Kyrie Irving at age 21. There stats as starting at this age are identical. D-Rose had identical stats, and the next had his best season ever and became youngest MVP ever. Under a strong Head Coach with a veteran supporting cast. Two things we could offer.

KI, Wall, Westbrook, Rose. All lottery picks. Each All Stars. Most #1 overall picks. Teague can't even compare to these guys. If we could get our hands on one of these guys young, why the hell would we pass on it?

Are there concerns regarding Kyrie. Yes. His injury history, his maturity, his defense. But the latter two issues were ALSO a concern with Teague years ago when he was 21. The difference is that KI is massively more talented. If a 21 year old PG's worst season is comparable to a 25 year old's BEST season, seems pretty reasonable that the 21 year old is of greater talent and worth investing in.

[PandaKidd]

Why would he not get the same 100+ million dollar deal CP3 got? Im assuming that is what he will be pushing for?

Im not sure he is worth Cp3 money, HELL Im not sure CP3 is worth CP3 money HAHA But, I concede Teague has literally no shot at being in the same level of KI if KI lives up to expectations. Its just talent and mechanics.

[Jamaaliver]

Why would he not get the same 100+ million dollar deal CP3 got? Im assuming that is what he will be pushing for?

MAX deals vary based on the number of years in the league. The MAX for James Harden is drastically less than the MAX for Joe Johnson because JJ was in the league for so much longer.

A max deal for Kyrie would be almost identical to the MAX deal John Wall got last year. A total of $80 million over five years, but tiered so that each year sees an increase in salary.

Basically, as an 8 year veteran, Chris Paul is entitled to a higher max salary than Kyrie and Wall who've been in the league less than half that time.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Teague and Kyrie's stats have been almost similar this year and both have been inconsistent. Give Teague 4 more shots a game and he will average 20 a game like Kyrie.

I have to question this as well. Teague's production this year is more in line with guys like Kyle Lowery, Ty Lawson. Those are his peers as PGs who are borderline All Stars.

Kyrie's production is more akin to Russ Westbrook, John Wall. He's closer to those elite PGs. And a really telling statistical comparison: Derrick Rose at age 21 compared to Kyrie Irving at age 21. There stats as starting at this age are identical. D-Rose had identical stats, and the next had his best season ever and became youngest MVP ever. Under a strong Head Coach with a veteran supporting cast. Two things we could offer.

KI, Wall, Westbrook, Rose. All lottery picks. Each All Stars. Most #1 overall picks. Teague can't even compare to these guys. If we could get our hands on one of these guys young, why the hell would we pass on it?

Are there concerns regarding Kyrie. Yes. His injury history, his maturity, his defense. But the latter two issues were ALSO a concern with Teague years ago when he was 21. The difference is that KI is massively more talented. If a 21 year old PG's worst season is comparable to a 25 year old's BEST season, seems pretty reasonable that the 21 year old is of greater talent and worth investing in.

So you are using Kyrie declining in his 3rd year as a good example of potential and Teague improving in his 3rd straight year as a bad example of potential? Doesn't make much sense to me. If Kyrie is so much better than Teague, why can't he consistently improve his play from season to season.

Here is where you will place the blame on every person possible other than Kyrie. He is obviously in a bad situation, but he still deserves blame for his "worst season". Teague has been in a bad situation for his whole career, until this year, but you won't give him any lee way and will place 100% of the blame on him.

[Jamaaliver]

Teague has been in a bad situation for his whole career, until this year, but you won't give him any lee way and will place 100% of the blame on him.

I can't even fathom how misguided these statements are...

Teague was drafted to a playoff team filled with veterans. He was brought along slowly in a winning culture. He earned the starting PG job after a number of years, playing beside All Stars, rebounders, shot blockers, defenders, scorers. How in the H3LL is Jeff Teague in a bad situation?

I honestly can't think of a better situation for a young PG drafted as late as he was. The only other PG whose situation was better...Tony Parker. He's had vets at PG his entire career to guide/teach him. (Bibby/Hinrich/Devin) He's never had to carry the team or franchise. He's never had the pressure on him like Wall, Rose, Irving. He's made the playoffs every single year he was here, even as a young player off the bench. This is his first losing season...and he STILL made the playoffs.

And what blame is there? Teague is a 3rd tier player. That's who he is. Nothing wrong with that.

So you are using Kyrie declining in his 3rd year as a good example of potential and Teague improving in his 3rd straight year as a bad example of potential? Doesn't make much sense to me. If Kyrie is so much better than Teague, why can't he consistently improve his play from season to season.

...I...don't know how better to explain it. If Kyrie's worst season is All Star caliber...identical to Westbrook or John Wall, then with support, his best season could be an ALL Time Great. CLE is a mess. The GM, Coach, owner have run that place into the ground. Yet Kyrie is still putting up top flight production.

You like teague. And that's fine. He's a solid, third tier player. A slightly above average PG in a league filled with slightly above average PGs. If you believe Teague can lead us to the promised land, can become a star, exceeding Irving and other top PGS...that's fine. I'll add it to the predictions list.

But know that we'll revisit this in the future.

[PandaKidd]

I think if we are objective:

KI is far more "talented" than Teague. Thats just not even debatable.

KI has a far higher ceiling than Teague.

KI has a completely different offensive style than Teague. KI is a jump shooter , crossover, player, Teague is a pass/dribble penetrate floater player. JT doesnt even shoot a traditional jump shot, KI does which adds so much more dimension to ones game. I never understood how guys can get to the NBA and not be able to pull up and shoot a jump shot while playing a Guard position.

Teague had a GREAT year on a team with little talent around him. He has evolved and proved to me that hes a top 10 PG in this league. I dont think he will EVER be a top 5 , but top 10 is not something to bitch about.

KI is a top 10 PG, and could be a top 5 guy with the right coach and team, hes just that talented.

KI had a bad season this year and I think its because of 2 things :1) Mike Brown 2) Uninterested in a team that has ZERO chemistry and hes a kid that doesnt know how to deal with being in CLE with bad ownership, bad teammates, bad coach, etc



If youre asking me if I would swap Teague for KI straight up, Id have to say yes. Thats not a slight at Teague, I LOVE TEAGUE, thats just being realistic. Would you trade Teague for......Steph Curry? Tony Parker? CP3? RW? I think Kyrie can be in the conversation with those players, Teague NEVER will be. He is too limited.

Teague doesnt have the court vision or offensive skillset to be elite. He will get VERY close to top5, but dont feel he will ever get there.

Would i give up Teague+2nd Rounder............sure. Teague +1st rounder...............Im not sure. We have a TON of needs, would KI and our current roster be better long term than say Teague + Payne or Doug Mcdermont or whoever else we could land

[PandaKidd]

Why would he not get the same 100+ million dollar deal CP3 got? Im assuming that is what he will be pushing for?

MAX deals vary based on the number of years in the league. The MAX for James Harden is drastically less than the MAX for Joe Johnson because JJ was in the league for so much longer.

A max deal for Kyrie would be almost identical to the MAX deal John Wall got last year. A total of $80 million over five years, but tiered so that each year sees an increase in salary.

Basically, as an 8 year veteran, Chris Paul is entitled to a higher max salary than Kyrie and Wall who've been in the league less than half that time.

genuinely, thanks!

I was unsure how it all worked.

[Jamaaliver]

Why would he not get the same 100+ million dollar deal CP3 got? Im assuming that is what he will be pushing for?

MAX deals vary based on the number of years in the league. The MAX for James Harden is drastically less than the MAX for Joe Johnson because JJ was in the league for so much longer.

A max deal for Kyrie would be almost identical to the MAX deal John Wall got last year. A total of $80 million over five years, but tiered so that each year sees an increase in salary.

Basically, as an 8 year veteran, Chris Paul is entitled to a higher max salary than Kyrie and Wall who've been in the league less than half that time.

genuinely, thanks!

I was unsure how it all worked.

Never a problem. I only know because someone once took the time to explain it to me, as well.

[MaceCase]

Technically if Kyrie gets voted in as an All Star starter again he would be eligible for a max that is 30% of the cap rather than just 25% under the Rose provision.

[ATLHawksfan21]

We will know a lot more in two weeks. I'm just ready to see what Teague does in this Pacers series. I have a feeling he is going to be aggressive and Hawks fans are going to be very pleased with his performance.

[theatlfan]

Guys, I'm not really sure what to think of this debate. For full disclosure, I really like Teague and I can't see Kyrie as the type of star that would change the Hawks' fortunes at the gate. But still... if you have a chance to get a Kyrie Irving, you have to put a strong offer on the table. I'd have 0 problem with shipping out Teague and an unprotected '15 1st (reminder we still have the ability to swap with BRK next year) for him or a package of Teague, Schröder, and a protected 1st without thinking too hard about it. If CLE isn't that interested in competing with the current group without Kyrie then we would need to find a 3rd team to take Teague for value, but I can't think that'd be a large obstacle - I've seen at least several different offers from MIL fans albeit ones generally centered around Sanders. Now, if they're continue to ask for more then yeah, I'd start hedging but I'd have no problem putting the offer out there.

2nd, why do we care what to pay Kyrie? If the player is worth his contract, then we shouldn't have a problem paying it and a guy who's is someone who was an AS starter at 21 is worth more than the max contract for his experience. Assuming he doesn't hit the Derrick Rose provision (and he could) then we're really just a dump of Korver away from still being able to offer a Love or a M Gasol their max in the '15 FA class... and we might not even need to do that (someone with more time than I have right now can run those numbers).

The reason I say this does have something to do with his play (when he's on, he's insanely efficient for the volume of shots he takes), but the one thing you cannot overlook in the NBA is his reputation of being a burgeoning superstar. Referees will give him calls; other players will sign on to play with him. Regardless of whether or not you think he'd make it there or not, the fact that he has the reputation is enough to make a difference. While I'd personally rather pay the same price to go ahead and land the established superstar, I wouldn't pass on the chance to go ahead and land one now.

[ATLHawksfan21]

For the price of Kyrie we can have a Teague and Milsap basically. Let's not overlook injury issues either.

Kyrie missed the majority of his only year at Duke. Missed 15 games in his rookie season, 23 games last year and 11 this year.

Teague missed zero games in his first year starting, 2 games last year and 3 this year.


If that's not the sign of an injury prone player I don't know what is. He's missed more than 10 games in 4 straight years while Teague is a straight ironman.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Guys, I'm not really sure what to think of this debate. For full disclosure, I really like Teague and I can't see Kyrie as the type of star that would change the Hawks' fortunes at the gate. But still... if you have a chance to get a Kyrie Irving, you have to put a strong offer on the table. I'd have 0 problem with shipping out Teague and an unprotected '15 1st (reminder we still have the ability to swap with BRK next year) for him or a package of Teague, Schröder, and a protected 1st without thinking too hard about it. If CLE isn't that interested in competing with the current group without Kyrie then we would need to find a 3rd team to take Teague for value, but I can't think that'd be a large obstacle - I've seen at least several different offers from MIL fans albeit ones generally centered around Sanders. Now, if they're continue to ask for more then yeah, I'd start hedging but I'd have no problem putting the offer out there.

2nd, why do we care what to pay Kyrie? If the player is worth his contract, then we shouldn't have a problem paying it and a guy who's is someone who was an AS starter at 21 is worth more than the max contract for his experience. Assuming he doesn't hit the Derrick Rose provision (and he could) then we're really just a dump of Korver away from still being able to offer a Love or a M Gasol their max in the '15 FA class... and we might not even need to do that (someone with more time than I have right now can run those numbers).

The reason I say this does have something to do with his play (when he's on, he's insanely efficient for the volume of shots he takes), but the one thing you cannot overlook in the NBA is his reputation of being a burgeoning superstar. Referees will give him calls; other players will sign on to play with him. Regardless of whether or not you think he'd make it there or not, the fact that he has the reputation is enough to make a difference. While I'd personally rather pay the same price to go ahead and land the established superstar, I wouldn't pass on the chance to go ahead and land one now.

A team of Love and Irving? Two of the worst stat-padders in the league on one team. That will really get us places.