Sixers fans big board: Pick #5 (POLL)

[LloydFree]

I am really shocked that after guys have actually watched Julius Randle play, that there is still a belief he can be a Star player.

[OleSchool]

This is where Vonleh goes.

IMO, after Wiggins he is the perfect fit for us now and in the future. He could slide in at the 4 and probably play some spot C for us.

[HartfordWhalers]

I am really shocked that after guys have actually watched Julius Randle play, that there is still a belief he can be a Star player.

Yeah, I think he has as many translation to the next level questions as McDermott.

[ZarcMumoff]

Went with Vonleh. Basically, he fits the team in a bunch of ways - good fit with Noel, has the potential to be an All-Star type player, but is also a guy who could just end up being a good starter that knows his role.

[Agnostifarian]

I am really shocked that after guys have actually watched Julius Randle play, that there is still a belief he can be a Star player.

I wonder if the Randle lovers here are the same group that is still so high on Zach Levine... At least Levine has the physical skills to play a position at the next level.

[Skates]

I am really shocked that after guys have actually watched Julius Randle play, that there is still a belief he can be a Star player.

Yeah, I think he has as many translation to the next level questions as McDermott.

I tend to diagree, especially after watching him in the tounrament and going back and watching everything I could of Randle. McDermott got the same treatment from me. Randle is an NBA level athlete, in fact an above average one for a big men, well above average in a number of areas. McDermott is a shooter, possesses little in the way of NBA athleticism, and seems destined for a sixth man role at best.

Randle is a jump shot away from beng a 20 ppg scoerer in the NBA to me. He can beat smaller men, and in the NBA there are a lot of smaller PF's getting play these days, straight up. He can outquick bigger players and while he doesn't finish at the rim with dunks a la Chris Webber, his body control and instincts for puttng the ball in the basket with waht look like awakward shots reminds me very much of Thad, except that Randle is a bigger man and has a far better handle.

When I saw Randle struggle it was usually against three or four defenders who collapsed down on him, and if a player can do that and learn to pass...and the guy was really starting to show off his passing in the tourney, I'll take him with the fifth pick. In the NBA he will have to start mailing that mid range two so that teams don't simply back off and pack the lane. He is a good FT shooter and was supposed to be a pretty good outside shooter in HS. That is the skill that will determine his upside, because he has the lateral quickness and ballhandling to go around a big from the perimeter. His board work is excellent and he can defend his position better than I thought at first. A sneaky, fundamentally sound help defender, but not a rim protector. He won't need Noel to guard his man like some might and his work ethic is awesome.

Would I be sad if they took Vonleh? Not at all. I love the kid, his frame, etc, but he also has questions. Despite his length he doesn't finish above the rim much either and his passing skills and general feel for the game are rudimentary at best right now. I see Vonleh and Randle as the 5-6 tier, above Smart and Gordon.

[Agnostifarian]

Kobble said while back something like, "Randle will be burying big men on the bench in the NBA..." which will be true IF defenders have to respect Randle's perimeter game because I think his handle will allow him to get to the hole pretty easily. Spacing in the pros will really help his offense. I'll be happy to take a chance on him if he slips to 10 but I don't see him being BPA or "safest" at #5.

[snoopdogg88]

still like Randle better than Vonleh.

[LloydFree]

I am really shocked that after guys have actually watched Julius Randle play, that there is still a belief he can be a Star player.

Yeah, I think he has as many translation to the next level questions as McDermott.

You are correct. Randle has just as many translation issues as McDermott. Some of the issues are just different. McDermotts are ALL physical. He actually can play the game though.

Randle will be at a physical disadvantage against 80% of the Starting Power Forwards in the NBA, and at a skills disadvantage from the other 20%. Anybody who watched him play against 2nd round picks like Corey Jefferson and Johnny O'Bryant knows he will struggle with anybody 6'9 or over. They're not even that big by NBA standards, and Randle couldn't get shots over them.
So many things to list. He has the worst right hand I've ever seen. He can't hit a contested jumper. He has zero man-to-man defensive instincts. Can't block shots. Not a great passer. He can't dunk OVER an defender.

So we just "tanked" a whole season for a 6'9 PF with short arms, who only excels at getting his own offensive rebound put backs? Or a'Bigger Thad''? That's Something to build around?

[Embiid P]

Vonleh. He has more upside than does Randle IMO.

[dorkestra]

Elite first step and great strength for his position even in the NBA. His wingspan is his only major knock. I think he can overcome it. Its hard to quantify a mindset, but his is also fantastic. His touch dow low is great.

[42uptop]

The myth that Julius Randle is big needs to stop. Randle is small for his position; he's not going to be taking advantage of any size advantages at the next level.

Randle is 6'9 with a 6'11.5 wingpsan
Vonleh is 6'10 with a 7'4 wingspan

And can we also stop saying that Randle will benefit from "NBA spacing." A team with Julius Randle on it isn't going to have any spacing advantage, he is a terrible shooter who can literally only score at the rim over smaller players. No amount of spacing is going to change his skillset. Players don't magically develop completely different styles of play overnight.

The eye test, measurements, and fit with Noel say Vonleh is a better pick than Randle. Statistically the two were about on par with one another, except Vonleh was significantly better defensively and Randle averaged 2 more points per 40 minutes do to free throw attempts

The only reason Randle is even in this discussion was due to the college refs giving him superstar treatment and bailing him out by sending to the free throw line so frequently. Without that escort you have a very ordinary player who excels at rebounding and nothing else. The notion that his free throw attempts translate to the next level, despite there being better shotblockers and less referee intervention, is silly

[Skates]

How does one player being bigger make the other one small? Randle has sufficient size to play the 4, Vonleh has better length. That is an advantage that Vonleh has, but it doesn't make Randle too small to play the position. Randle also has a bigger, bulkier frame than Vonleh and strength can be as much of an advantage in creating space as length can be.

I hate even making these arguments because I really like Vonleh, but with a thinner, more wiry center in Noel, having a bulkier, stronger player at the four makes sense too. I would be happy with either guy, but I think Randle is being beat on unncessarily. Is he flawed? Sure, there isn't a guy in this draft without serious flaws.

[51X3RF4N]

This one is up for hot debate it seems. I went with Vonleh. I like Randle, and I love his potential to be a tough PF who pounds down low and scores with nifty moves. He has a good motor and rebounds well. But I don't like his defensive potential and I don't think he will develop any kind of outside game like a Carlos Boozer to cover up his size disadvantage. Maybe I'm wrong, but I like Vonleh here.

Are we stopping at #5 since that's the worst the Sixers can do?

Will we pick it back up with the #10 pick and do a poll for the best player available, assuming others go off the board before 10?

[Ericb5]

You guys who are taking Randle with a top 5 pick How is that bully ball gonna translate when everyone he tries to bully is bigger than him? Not seeing it. As a bench scorer against 2nd units? Sure. At best Randle is 7 IMHO. He is Thomas Robinson.

That "bully ball" as you term it is when he is double and triple teamed. Also, in the college game the paint is more bunched up due to the lack of space within the smaller three point area. Bully ball makes it seem as if he lacks skill, but in reality he is able to bully himself to the basket even WITH double teams.

Randle definitely will need to recognize and handle the double teams more effectively, but he is going to have to be doubled regularly in the post in the NBA and that means that he will be causing problems for the other team. A defender in single coverage on Randle all game will be in foul trouble.

Remember that the average size of the power forwards in the NBA is really going down due to the fact that teams play small lineups so much.

Plus, and I don't really see how this could be denied, he is an elite rebounder no matter what. I think that he will be averaging 11-12 rebounds eventually in the NBA.

All this is not to say that he will be a better player than Vonleh. I don't know how it all shakes out. I just think that he is clearly going to be a star.

[deep6er]

I am really shocked that after guys have actually watched Julius Randle play, that there is still a belief he can be a Star player.

I'm surprised that after seeing both Randle and Vonleh play that people think that Vonleh is MORE LIKELY to develop into a star player than Randle. If Vonleh puts it all together he could be awesome, and maybe it's just the games I watched this year, but this kid looks lost out on the court half the time. He's sloppy taking care of the ball, he's out of position on rebounds and on defense a lot, I think I almost saw his head explode trying to figure out if he should switch on a pick and roll (I think versus Syracuse). You guys are all saying that Randle succeeds because he can outmuscle college guys, but I think Vonleh's success is based on just out reaching a lot of smaller guys. No disrespect, the kid has physical gifts, can hit the outside shot and oozes potential, but if you all want to base this off of what we've seen on the court, in the games I've seen, I see Vonleh as a really athletic tall guy with a basketball IQ in the Javalle McGee range. THis is forgivable because he's so young, but again, talking about what we're seeing on the court, I see in Randle a big with great handle and body control who can finish (sometimes even with his right hand) and bang down low. His game does have flaws and I don't love the guy, but I'm amazed at people who can criticize his tape and then be so blindly gassed on Vonleh.

[Ericb5]

BTW, the perception exists that one of the advantages that Vonleh has over Randle is that he is longer, but he really isn't.

The most recent measurements of standing reach for both of them are 8'10 for Vonleh and 8'9.5 for Randle. It doesn't matter how much longer your arms are if it doesn't translate to a larger standing reach.

Aaron Gordon's standing reach is actually a half an inch longer than Vonleh's.

[Hardcore6erFan]

Randle's ceiling is a slightly better version of Terrence Jones. Vonleh's ceiling is a slightly worse version of Chris Bosh. I'll take Vonleh

[42uptop]

How does one player being bigger make the other one small? Randle has sufficient size to play the 4, Vonleh has better length. That is an advantage that Vonleh has, but it doesn't make Randle too small to play the position. Randle also has a bigger, bulkier frame than Vonleh and strength can be as much of an advantage in creating space as length can be.

I hate even making these arguments because I really like Vonleh, but with a thinner, more wiry center in Noel, having a bulkier, stronger player at the four makes sense too. I would be happy with either guy, but I think Randle is being beat on unncessarily. Is he flawed? Sure, there isn't a guy in this draft without serious flaws.

I never said one player being bigger makes the other one small. Randle is small on his own merits. My post is comparing the two. Randle is is actually an undersized 4 and does not have a good skillset to counteract that flaw. Have you seen Vonleh play? Because commenting on strength as an advantage for Randle is silly. Vonleh has incredible upper body strength.

[Ericb5]

How does one player being bigger make the other one small? Randle has sufficient size to play the 4, Vonleh has better length. That is an advantage that Vonleh has, but it doesn't make Randle too small to play the position. Randle also has a bigger, bulkier frame than Vonleh and strength can be as much of an advantage in creating space as length can be.

I hate even making these arguments because I really like Vonleh, but with a thinner, more wiry center in Noel, having a bulkier, stronger player at the four makes sense too. I would be happy with either guy, but I think Randle is being beat on unncessarily. Is he flawed? Sure, there isn't a guy in this draft without serious flaws.

I never said one player being bigger makes the other one small. Randle is small on his own merits. My post is comparing the two. Randle is is actually an undersized 4 and does not have a good skillset to counteract that flaw. Have you seen Vonleh play? Because commenting on strength as an advantage for Randle is silly. Vonleh has incredible upper body strength.

You DID imply that Vonleh was not small though and there is nothing quantifiable that says that he is bigger than Randle.

By quoting height and wingspan as an indicator of size you have fallen into a trap because those metrics are very misleading.

Vonleh is quoted as 6'10 with a 7'4 wingspan, but let's compare that to Elton Brand who is 6'8 or 6'9 with a 7'5.5 wingspan. If we are using just those numbers you would expect them to be about the same size, but Brand has a 9'2 standing reach and Vonleh has an 8'10 reach.

They are 4 inches different.

For all intents and purposes Randle is the same size as Vonleh in the only metric that really measures size for post players. I would say that they both are about average size for NBA power forwards.

From a size only perspective Vonleh isn't close to the player that people compare him to in Bosh who has a 9'1 standing reach.