Sixers fans big board: Pick #5 (POLL)

Hussien Fatal · Post #41 » by **Hussien Fatal** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:09 pm

Ericb5 wrote:BTW, the perception exists that one of the advantages that Vonleh has over Randle is that he is longer, but he really isn't.

The most recent measurements of standing reach for both of them are 8'10 for Vonleh and 8'9.5 for Randle. It doesn't matter how much longer your arms are if it doesn't translate to a larger standing reach.

Aaron Gordon's standing reach is actually a half an inch longer than Vonleh's.

(About the standing reach) standing reach to me is more important then wingspan, and thats why i dont think Randle is going to have as hard a time playing in the NBA as many people think. Remember MCW's wingspan is very average but he has a good standing reach, and we all saw how impressive he was his rookie season. With the 5th pick the sixers have to take Randle.

Skates · Post #42 » by **Skates** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:42 pm

I'm a bit surprised that Gordon hasn't gotten a little more love here as I keep hearing so much about the scouts loving him. He wouldn't be my pick, but I thought he would get a few more votes.

Wingspan is more useful in team defense and blocking passing lanes, etc, while standing reach is what I would look at length wise for one-on-one defense. In some ways that plays out true here as Vonleh has the better steal and block stats compared to Gordon and Randle. I think Vonleh has a lot more potential as a classic weakside/help defender, while Randle seems to be a more staright up defender at his position, though he did seem to know how to find the ball on help D at some pretty clutch times during the tournament and does a very good job of closing out on shooters.

Kova · Post #43 » by **Kova** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:02 pm

You guys haven't seen Saric play. Obviously because he is in Europe. Trust me, he will be a top NBA player. His bb IQ is Gasols-like, he is 20, but he is somewhat ready to contribute W column immediately (unlike Wiggins, Randle, Exum, Ebiid....)

I just wish we could draft him at 10, and get him here for 14'/15' season,

PhilasFinest · Post #44 » by **PhilasFinest** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:05 pm

Kova wrote:You guys haven't seen Saric play. Obviously because he is in Europe. Trust me, he will be a top NBA player. His bb IQ is Gasols-like, he is 20, but he is somewhat ready to contribute W column immediately (unlike Wiggins, Randle, Exum, Ebiid....)

I just wish we could draft him at 10, and get him here for 14'/15' season,

Having an IQ doesn't help when your a tweener who can't shoot, and has a **** attitude.

ill pass on Saric...He doesn't have the size to play the 4 or the athleticism/speed to play the 3.

LloydFree · Post #45 » by **LloydFree** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:12 pm

deep6er wrote:
LloydFree wrote:I am really shocked that after guys have actually watched Julius Randle play, that there is still a belief he can be a Star player.

I'm surprised that after seeing both Randle and Vonleh play that people think that Vonleh is MORE LIKELY to develop into a star player than Randle. If Vonleh puts it all together he could be awesome, and maybe it's just the games I watched this year, but this kid looks lost out on the court half the time. He's sloppy taking care of the ball, he's out of position on rebounds and on defense a lot, I think I almost saw his head explode trying to figure out if he should switch on a pick and roll (I think versus Syracuse). You guys are all saying that Randle succeeds because he can outmuscle college guys, but I think Vonleh's success is based on just out reaching a lot of smaller guys. No disrespect, the kid has physical gifts, can hit the outside shot and oozes potential, but if you all want to base this off of what we've seen on the court, in the games I've seen, I see Vonleh as a really athletic tall guy with a basketball IQ in the Javalle McGee range. THis is forgivable because he's so young, but again, talking about what we're seeing on the court, I see in Randle a big with great handle and body control who can finish (sometimes even with his right hand) and bang down low. His game does have flaws and I don't love the guy, but I'm amazed at people who can criticize his tape and then be so blindly gassed on Vonleh.

FWIW, I'm not convinced Vonleh will be a "star player". I'm just more convinced he has the ability to be a good NBA starter than Randle. Randle has more bust potential and a lower ceiling. Vonleh has more positives to his game than Randle.

Things Vonleh can do that Randle can not: Right Hand Hook over left shoulder, Left Hand hook over right shoulder. Jumper is Money, from the high post out to 20 feet. Fade away out of the low post. Defend NBA quality 'bigs' one-on-one in the post (I saw the 18 Year old Vonleh, throw the 22 year old Adrien Payne around like a rag doll this year). Randle can do none of those things. Even Vonleh's weak points, (Blocks), are BETTER than Randle's. And Randle's strength(rebounds) isn't better than Vonleh. What else?

sixerswillrule · Post #46 » by **sixerswillrule** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:18 pm

Vonleh was also 17 when last measured so he could've grown since.

OleSchool · Post #47 » by **OleSchool** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:19 pm

deep6er wrote:
LloydFree wrote:I am really shocked that after guys have actually watched Julius Randle play, that there is still a belief he can be a Star player.

I'm surprised that after seeing both Randle and Vonleh play that people think that Vonleh is MORE LIKELY to develop into a star player than Randle. If Vonleh puts it all together he could be awesome, and maybe it's just the games I watched this year, but this kid looks lost out on the court half the time. He's sloppy taking care of the ball, he's out of position on rebounds and on defense a lot, I think I almost saw his head explode trying to figure out if he should switch on a pick and roll (I think versus Syracuse). You guys are all saying that Randle succeeds because he can outmuscle college guys, but I think Vonleh's success is based on just out reaching a lot of smaller guys. No disrespect, the kid has physical gifts, can hit the outside shot and oozes potential, but if you all want to base this off of what we've seen on the court, in the games I've seen, I see Vonleh as a really athletic tall guy with a basketball IQ in the Javalle McGee range. THis is forgivable because he's so young, but again, talking about what we're seeing on the court, I see in Randle a big with great handle and body control who can finish (sometimes even with his right hand) and bang down low. His game does have flaws and I don't love the guy, but I'm amazed at people who can criticize his tape and then be so blindly gassed on Vonleh.

In HS Vonleh was a 3, it wasn't until he signed with IU that the coaching staff put him at PF. So this was his 1st year playing the PF. So there is going to be an adjustment playing down low. We are in a rebuilding mode and can afford to bring Vonleh along.

Ericb5 · Post #48 » by **Ericb5** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:21 pm

Skates wrote:I'm a bit surprised that Gordon hasn't gotten a little more love here as I keep hearing so much about the scouts loving him. He wouldn't be my pick, but I thought he would get a few more votes.

Wingspan is more useful in team defense and blocking passing lanes, etc, while standing reach is what I would look at length wise for one-on-one defense. In some ways that plays out true here as Vonleh has the better steal and block stats compared to Gordon and Randle. I think Vonleh has a lot more potential as a classic weakside/help defender, while Randle seems to be a more staright up defender at his position, though he did seem to know how to find the ball on help D at some pretty clutch times during the tournament and does a very good job of closing out on shooters.

I agree with this, but I would say that standing reach has added value in post scoring and rebounding in addition to post defense. It makes sense that someone with longer arms will be better at steals and help defense, but if you are reaching your hands over your head when trying to grab rebounds and score in the post then it stands to reason that your reach is the real measure of size in this regard. Vonleh is not better equipped to do that than Randle based on size.

Nobody, including me, would argue that Randle has the length to be a terrific post defender, but my point really is that he is not at a disadvantage in terms of accomplishing at the pro level what he is able to accomplish at the collegiate level. He will be able to score and rebound in the post and is not undersized for those feats.

In addition to this he has an uncommon strength and tenacity that will be ADVANTAGES at his position in the NBA.

Further, I would argue that he has more versatility to his game than he showed in college and this is partially due to the tighter space as well as to the way that Calipari used him. For example, whenever he got the ball at the the edges of the free throw line he was just basically handing it back off to the guards. If he was given the ball out there with the freedom to attempt to score I think that he would be able to hit enough jump shots that he will force defenders to play him honestly, and will also be able to use his handles to drive past defenders and put tremendous pressure on the defense.

He also didn't have particularly strong point guard play which I feel will be a big advantage to him if he were to play with MCW.

I love Vonleh too, don't get me wrong. I voted for Randle for 5th, but would vote for Vonleh for 6th and would love for the Sixers to get him. I just feel that Randle has a bit more of the swagger of a star than Vonleh does. I like his intangibles a lot.

PhilasFinest · Post #49 » by **PhilasFinest** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:23 pm

Ericb5 wrote:
Skates wrote:I'm a bit surprised that Gordon hasn't gotten a little more love here as I keep hearing so much about the scouts loving him. He wouldn't be my pick, but I thought he would get a few more votes.

Wingspan is more useful in team defense and blocking passing lanes, etc, while standing reach is what I would look at length wise for one-on-one defense. In some ways that plays out true here as Vonleh has the better steal and block stats compared to Gordon and Randle. I think Vonleh has a lot more potential as a classic weakside/help defender, while Randle seems to be a more staright up defender at his position, though he did seem to know how to find the ball on help D at some pretty clutch times during the tournament and does a very good job of closing out on shooters.

I agree with this, but I would say that standing reach has added value in post scoring and rebounding in addition to post defense. It makes sense that someone with longer arms will be better at steals and help defense, but if you are reaching your hands over your head when trying to grab rebounds and score in the post then it stands to reason that your reach is the real measure of size in this regard. Vonleh is not better equipped to do that than Randle based on size.

Nobody, including me, would argue that Randle has the length to be a terrific post defender, but my point really is that he is not at a disadvantage in terms of accomplishing at the pro level what he is able to accomplish at the collegiate level. He will be able to score and rebound in the post and is not undersized for those feats.

In addition to this he has an uncommon strength and tenacity that will be ADVANTAGES at his position in the NBA.

Further, I would argue that he has more versatility to his game than he showed in college and this is partially due to the tighter space as well as to the way that Calipari used him. For example, whenever he got the ball at the the edges of the free throw line he was just basically handing it back off to the guards. If he was given the ball out there with the freedom to attempt to score I think that he would be able to hit enough jump shots that he will force defenders to play him honestly, and will also be able to use his handles to drive past defenders and put tremendous pressure on the defense.

He also didn't have particularly strong point guard play which I feel will be a big advantage to him if he were to play with MCW.

I love Vonleh too, don't get me wrong. I voted for Randle for 5th, but would vote for Vonleh for 6th and would love for the Sixers to get him. I just feel that Randle has a bit more of the swagger of a star than Vonleh does. I like his intangibles a lot.

Agree

Kobblehead · Post #50 » by **Kobblehead** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:35 pm

Randle is more likely to be the better pro baller than Vonleh. Measurements and skillset can only get you so far. Where's the fire and aggressiveness in Vonleh? Dude has a role player's temperament and demeanor.

42uptop · Post #51 » by **42uptop** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:38 pm

Ericb5 wrote:You DID imply that Vonleh was not small though and there is nothing quantifiable that says that he is bigger than Randle.

By quoting height and wingspan as an indicator of size you have fallen into a trap because those metrics are very misleading.

Vonleh is quoted as 6'10 with a 7'4 wingspan, but let's compare that to Elton Brand who is 6'8 or 6'9 with a 7'5.5 wingspan. If we are using just those numbers you would expect them to be about the same size, but Brand has a 9'2 standing reach and Vonleh has an 8'10 reach.

They are 4 inches different.

For all intents and purposes Randle is the same size as Vonleh in the only metric that really measures size for post players. I would say that they both are about average size for NBA power forwards.

From a size only perspective Vonleh isn't close to the player that people compare him to in Bosh who has a 9'1 standing reach.

Vonleh's standing reach at the Hoop Summit was .5" longer than Randle and his height was 1" longer. You are arguing with me over whether to use standing reach or height....they are virtually the same for both players. You can decrease Vonleh's height by .5" and my argument still stands.

I'm not sure why you believe that standing reach is "the only metric that really measures size for post players" but that statement is completely false. Wingspan and standing reach are two different measurements for size and they both project different things. Vonleh having a significantly longer wingspan means he has longer arms and broader shoulders. These are terrific aspects for projecting steals (hands in the passing lane), blocks (longer arms), and rebounds (wider range to grab the ball)

The 5" difference between these two players' wingspans is extremely important, it is what makes Randle undersized for his position while Vonleh is adequately built for it. You jumped to an extreme here. I never said Vonleh was a giant. He is adequately built for his position while Randle is not, neither of them are Manute Bol

The76thDegree · Post #52 » by **The76thDegree** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:39 pm

A lot of good stuff here. A ton of people saying what I'm thinking for the most part regarding Randle. Not a fan of his game. No real position. Not fast enough/lateral speed to guard the 3 and not big enough to guard the 4. Gonna be hustle guy and bang and rebound but limited ceiling IMO. Vonleh has much more potential but has a better chance to be a bigger bust. That's why I went with Smart

42uptop · Post #53 » by **42uptop** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:46 pm

If you like Randle more based on his intangibles then that is a different argument. While I didn't see any intangibles that separated these two players this isn't something quantifiable, maybe Vonleh is the quieter more reserved player. I'm only focused on the basketball component right now

AAKing23 · Post #54 » by **AAKing23** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:47 pm

Agnostifarian wrote:
LloydFree wrote:I am really shocked that after guys have actually watched Julius Randle play, that there is still a belief he can be a Star player.

I wonder if the Randle lovers here are the same group that is still so high on Zach Levine... At least Levine has the physical skills to play a position at the next level.

I'm also big on LaVine and I'm a Randle lover so

PhilasFinest · Post #55 » by **PhilasFinest** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:51 pm

I think both have risks....just feel Randle has more "star" potential than Vonleh.

LloydFree · Post #56 » by **LloydFree** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:13 pm

I love the ridiculous 'intangibles' and alpha-male traits being assigned to players, we don't know. I wonder if the GM that drafted Evan Turner is at home now, mumbling about the alpha-male traits he showed in 'college'.

I recall Tyler Hansbrough had these 'intangibles'. Shelden Williams was an Alpha. Sean May was an Alpha. Wayman Tisdale was an Alpha. J R Reid was an Alpha. Michael Beasley was an Alpha.

It's hilarious how every Physically mature Freshman that comes into college and scores double figures gets assigned the monicker of Alpha Male. Nobody ever LEARNS that these guys' peers will have the same strength in 3 years, and everybody in the NBA is stronger than them right now. All these "strong" "alphas" in college seem to find their way to the bench when they get into the NBA.

Kobblehead · Post #57 » by **Kobblehead** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:24 pm

PhilasFinest wrote:I think both have risks....just feel Randle has more "star" potential than Vonleh.

Yup. Not to mention that Randle has a pretty untapped skillset offensively that he wasn't able to demonstrate in the college game. His ability to handle the rock and blow by guys with his first step is really going to blossom in the NBA.

PhilasFinest · Post #58 » by **PhilasFinest** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:32 pm

LloydFree wrote:I love the ridiculous 'intangibles' and alpha-male traits being assigned to players, we don't know. I wonder if the GM that drafted Evan Turner is at home now, mumbling about the alpha-male traits he showed in 'college'.

I recall Tyler Hansbrough had these 'intangibles'. Shelden Williams was an Alpha. Sean May was an Alpha. Wayman Tisdale was an Alpha. J R Reid was an Alpha. Michael Beasley was an Alpha.

It's hilarious how every Physically mature Freshman that comes into college and scores double figures gets assigned the monicker of Alpha Male. Nobody ever LEARNS that these guys' peers will have the same strength in 3 years, and everybody in the NBA is stronger than them right now. All these "strong" "alphas" in college seem find their way to the bench when they get into the NBA.

LeBron and Melo have been Alphas pretty much there entire lives....worked out fine for them.

There is a certain mindset that is in most of the top players in the NBA...and you don't develop that overnight....you usually have it or you don't.

Pretty sure Vonleh isn't grabbing boards or scoring in the post by jumping over people either....hes pretty big boy too who uses it too his advantage.

Most of the guys you mentioned are upperclassmen .... Randle is a freshman.

and Beasley could have been a hell of a player....he just chose to smoke his way out of that potential and take 0 direction from anyone.

Kobblehead · Post #59 » by **Kobblehead** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:33 pm

Lol don't pay attention to Lloyd Free

OleSchool · Post #60 » by **OleSchool** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:38 pm

PhilasFinest wrote:There is a certain mindset that is in most of the top players in the NBA...and you don't develop that overnight....you usually have it or you don't.

Just to derail this thread, then does that apply to Wiggins? cause that is one of the chief concern's with him

Sixers fans big board: #5