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Officiating in the NBA

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Re: Update: The BIASED referee calling against the Raptors 

Post#401 » by daswunderboy » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:07 pm

truthrising wrote:
Rhythm043 wrote:
truthrising wrote:It's ok if the NBA is rigged..just try not to take it as seriously that's all, honestly you should try and see the NBA much like WWE..and look past the fairness in competition and just be entertained by the storylines of the NBA.


I hope your joking about the WWE, lol. But no man, if any of that is true, it's not okay and I can't watch a sport that is being decided by anything other than the players on the court and I can't not take it seriously either. I doubt Donaghy is making it ALL up.

You do realize it's not just basketball..things like match fixing happens in all sports ie football, baseball etc. Honestly it's pretty hard to get rid of especially when you have underground organizations such as the mafia involved.


Most corrupt sport is Tennis I believe. THat usually shocks people to learn, but it is hugely fixed by mostly Russian mob types. Cricket in India is also massively fixed/corrupt.
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Re: Update: The BIASED referee calling against the Raptors 

Post#402 » by Rhythm043 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:25 pm

pbj wrote:
Rhythm043 wrote:
pbj wrote:
Yes, that's what I said


Watch the tape again bro. We got fouled. Brk got 8 FT in the fourth quarter which was the margin of victory.
That guy you work with is right.


I was being sarcastic, obviously there were fouls they missed.

I just thought it was ridiculous he was say that's why he can't watch BASKETBALL when refs make/miss terrible calls in every sport.


Yea sorry man, sometimes cannot tell the sarcasm online. Refs do make terrible calls in a lot of sports but it seems basketball is the worst. With that being said, maybe it is the hardest to referee.

Baseball is bad too and now its even worse with half replay half real umpire.
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Re: Update: The BIASED referee calling against the Raptors 

Post#403 » by HoopAndTheHarm » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:31 pm

Lukeem wrote:Did espn give some angles TSN didnt last game ( most notably fields over the back (?) foul on garnett in 4 th

That and the constant illegal screens by garnett that never get called ( much worse than JVs which constantly toe the line) those and some questionable (strips) are my only problems with last game.

The questionable strips are routine missed / star biased calls. The garnett vs Jv illegal screens is pure NBA star treatment.

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Except that Garnett hasn't been a "star" for 5 plus years. It's one thing to argue that certain "star" calls for legitimate prime career players somehow benefit the league and game as a whole, it's quite another to watch those calls go in favour of someone who is clearly now a shadow of the player they once were.
Quicker, stronger players are manhandling him and he is getting the benefit of calls/non-calls to make up for his declining abilities.
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Re: Update: The BIASED referee calling against the Raptors 

Post#404 » by Lukeem » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:01 pm

HoopAndTheHarm wrote:
Lukeem wrote:Did espn give some angles TSN didnt last game ( most notably fields over the back (?) foul on garnett in 4 th

That and the constant illegal screens by garnett that never get called ( much worse than JVs which constantly toe the line) those and some questionable (strips) are my only problems with last game.

The questionable strips are routine missed / star biased calls. The garnett vs Jv illegal screens is pure NBA star treatment.

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Except that Garnett hasn't been a "star" for 5 plus years. It's one thing to argue that certain "star" calls for legitimate prime career players somehow benefit the league and game as a whole, it's quite another to watch those calls go in favour of someone who is clearly now a shadow of the player they once were.
Quicker, stronger players are manhandling him and he is getting the benefit of calls/non-calls to make up for his declining abilities.


I hear ya

Two things

1) garnett still gets star calls because of his past not present.

2) star calls is what is wrong with the NBA, it got carried away in Jordan era and has never recovered. Add in all the flopping now with some of the stars (Lebron, griffin at the forefront) and it's a disgrace to the sport I love


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Tim Donaghy: NBA pressured officials to call games for Nets 

Post#405 » by Kreamy » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:36 pm

Article not really flattering towards the Raptors but it's the NY Daily News.

"(The Raptors) are not only going against the Brooklyn Nets but going against the league office," Donaghy said in a radio interview in Canada. "They have a very talented team and have to be that much better than the Brooklyn Nets.


An NBA spokesman issued this statement: “Tim Donaghy is a convicted felon looking for any opportunity for people to listen to his baseless allegations. For Mr. Donaghy to continually try to challenge his former colleagues’ ethics is distasteful and says more about his own integrity than it could ever say about our referees, who are the best and most scrutinized game officials in the world.”


"We are trying to stand up for something here. …No more of us on the side," Raptors GM Masai Ujiri said Tuesday morning on the radio.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baske ... z2zkeVAXLn
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Re: Tim Donaghy: NBA pressured officials to call games for N 

Post#406 » by Risk101 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:39 pm

Tim Donaghy is a convicted felon looking for any opportunity for people to listen to his baseless allegations.

He's looking for attention, he has nothing to support his argument.
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Re: Tim Donaghy: NBA pressured officials to call games for N 

Post#407 » by RaptorJ » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:45 pm

Jose Canseco is a convicted felon looking for any opportunity for people to listen to his baseless allegations of mass steroid and HGH abuse in baseball.
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Re: Tim Donaghy: NBA pressured officials to call games for N 

Post#408 » by ender » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:48 pm

Risk101 wrote:Tim Donaghy is a convicted felon looking for any opportunity for people to listen to his baseless allegations.

He's looking for attention, he has nothing to support his argument.


Well you are partially right. He is a convicted felon and the publicity would help to sell his book. On the other hand, he knows how the league works from the inside. I would say he might have a tiny bit of personal experience to support his argument.
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Re: Tim Donaghy: NBA pressured officials to call games for N 

Post#409 » by KrazyP » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:52 pm

If there is any merit to this statement, the bad calls will show up in game 6 and 7.....they'll probably let both teams play between now and then.
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Re: Update: The BIASED referee calling against the Raptors 

Post#410 » by Truthrising » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:07 pm

daswunderboy wrote:
truthrising wrote:
Rhythm043 wrote:
I hope your joking about the WWE, lol. But no man, if any of that is true, it's not okay and I can't watch a sport that is being decided by anything other than the players on the court and I can't not take it seriously either. I doubt Donaghy is making it ALL up.

You do realize it's not just basketball..things like match fixing happens in all sports ie football, baseball etc. Honestly it's pretty hard to get rid of especially when you have underground organizations such as the mafia involved.


Most corrupt sport is Tennis I believe. THat usually shocks people to learn, but it is hugely fixed by mostly Russian mob types. Cricket in India is also massively fixed/corrupt.

good point..professional sports match fixing isn't just in North America but is a worldwide problem...from what I hear even the World Cup is effected.
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Re: Update: The BIASED referee calling against the Raptors 

Post#411 » by chimpston17 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:22 pm

Everyone should listen to the Donaghy interview because it gives interesting insight into how the bias works.

It's not that the refs go into the game thinking 'the nets have to win', but rather the league itself skews the referees pointing out what they want to be called. Apparently, according to Tim, the refs get paid according to how the calls they make get graded, and how they get graded is determined by the league. The example he uses is if the league says kyle lowry is hand-checking all the time on D, and the league expects that to be called a foul, then the refs are going to be looking for that throughout the game in order to grade highly. If the league itself is biased, then the entire process is biased without the refs being consciously involved in the process. Very interesting.

Perhaps Tim himself is biased in this, but as someone who used to work for the league I think he would have a great idea of how it works and is very worth listening to and investigating.

I hope most of all this interview puts a lot of attention on the subject so that the games will be called more evenly
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Re: Update: The BIASED referee calling against the Raptors 

Post#412 » by Detective » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:48 pm

Man, Turbo Zone just activated Raptor Mode with this latest creation:

Spoiler:
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Amazing use of the 99 problems lyrics.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Re: Update: The BIASED referee calling against the Raptors 

Post#413 » by Truthrising » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:54 pm

chimpston17 wrote:Everyone should listen to the Donaghy interview because it gives interesting insight into how the bias works.

It's not that the refs go into the game thinking 'the nets have to win', but rather the league itself skews the referees pointing out what they want to be called. Apparently, according to Tim, the refs get paid according to how the calls they make get graded, and how they get graded is determined by the league. The example he uses is if the league says kyle lowry is hand-checking all the time on D, and the league expects that to be called a foul, then the refs are going to be looking for that throughout the game in order to grade highly. If the league itself is biased, then the entire process is biased without the refs being consciously involved in the process. Very interesting.

Perhaps Tim himself is biased in this, but as someone who used to work for the league I think he would have a great idea of how it works and is very worth listening to and investigating.

I hope most of all this interview puts a lot of attention on the subject so that the games will be called more evenly

Do you have a link to this interview??
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Re: Update: The BIASED referee calling against the Raptors 

Post#414 » by chimpston17 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:01 am

truthrising wrote:
chimpston17 wrote:Everyone should listen to the Donaghy interview because it gives interesting insight into how the bias works.

It's not that the refs go into the game thinking 'the nets have to win', but rather the league itself skews the referees pointing out what they want to be called. Apparently, according to Tim, the refs get paid according to how the calls they make get graded, and how they get graded is determined by the league. The example he uses is if the league says kyle lowry is hand-checking all the time on D, and the league expects that to be called a foul, then the refs are going to be looking for that throughout the game in order to grade highly. If the league itself is biased, then the entire process is biased without the refs being consciously involved in the process. Very interesting.

Perhaps Tim himself is biased in this, but as someone who used to work for the league I think he would have a great idea of how it works and is very worth listening to and investigating.

I hope most of all this interview puts a lot of attention on the subject so that the games will be called more evenly

Do you have a link to this interview??


http://pmd.fan590.com/audio_on_demand-3/Tim-Donaghy-with-Jeff-Blair-jb-20140422-Interview.mp3
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Re: Update: The BIASED referee calling against the Raptors 

Post#415 » by chimpston17 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:07 am

To me this should be a simple investigation to make. How are referees 'graded'? Who does the 'grading'? Some franchises make the league more money than other ones, and get higher TV ratings than other ones, so that is already indisputable. So the question remains: is the league in control of how refs are graded? If the answer is yes, then to me the system is inherently biased by that.

If the league wants to prove that Donaghys claims are baseless, then I would like to see the proof that this is not the case.
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Re: Update: The BIASED referee calling against the Raptors 

Post#416 » by Clutch Carter » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:10 am

When somebody attacks their accusers character and not their arguments, that's a pretty good indication that there is some merit of truth to them.
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Re: Live now - Tim Donaghy on Fan 590 Raps/Nets Refs 

Post#417 » by WaltFrazier » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:56 am

theonlyeastcoastrapsfan wrote:Donaghy is a criminal, but where would the justice system be if the words of criminals were automatically discounted as total lies.

As well, wouldn't it be also true that NBA has been proven to employ refs who fix games, and were unable to notice the activity when it was right under their nose, nor was there any sign, prior to if coming out publicly that his performance as a ref was in question? Makes you wonder, are they even looking?


Good point. I read the first few pages of this thread and was amazed how no on even refered to what Donaghy actually said on the Blair show. He has been in the room when NBA supervisors come to prep refs before a playoff game. He said how they make it clear what they want called between the 2 teasms, and how he as a ref would come away from those meetings knowing which team the league wanted to win. And how refs who toed the line and did what the league wants, get to work the next round and so on.

The other major point - a Brooklyn-Miami 2nd round series is hugely more profitable to the TV networks ratings, than TO-Miami. This isn't just a Toronto thing, it put the small market and less glamorous teams at a disadvantage. With muliple millions of TV dollars at stake, you have to be very naive to think there is no bias towrds teams with bigger stars, usually but not always from large markets.

Having watched the NBA since about 1070, I always suspected the league was not totally honest in its dealings. And it became more evident to me that it changed about 1991, under David Stern, when NBC paid huge money to win the contract from CBS. That coincided with the start of the Jordan dynasty title run. When I first heard that an NBA ref had been accused of betting on games, I thought oh no, this will be a distraction from showing the systemic bias of how the NBA operates, he will be seen as a rogue criminal. Because a ref gambling and the league systematically favoring certain teams are 2 different issues.

Then I finally got around to reading Donaghy's book. Turns out that, with his inside knowledge, his gambling succes was based on the exact referee bias that many had always accused the NBA of. He admitted his gambling, lost his job, served time. There is no reason to discredit his uncoveing of the league's inner workings because he is a "liar." He simply has nothing to lose now from antagonzing the NBA power structure. Whereas players, coaches, broadcasters, etc stand to lose a lot if they discredit the integrity of the NBA money machine.

I love Jack Armstrong, and in both games so far he has been on the verge of really complaining about how one sided the officiating has been. But then you can almost feel him bite his tongue and hold back, especially in game 1 when they showed a shot of Adam Silver at the game as Jack was going on about no fouls called in the 4th quarter. He knows, or likely was warned by the producer via headset, not to go too far in telling the truth. He could lose that job if the NBA found he was too critical of the refs.

How do I think it all works? Not by a memo from Stern or Silver saying, we want Miami to win in 6 this series. Nothing so direct. It's by the kind of inuendo from referee supervisors in meetings, that Donaghy talked about on the Blair show. Refs can easily make a 10 or more point difference in a game with no calls, phantom calls (like Pierce's and one call that alowed the Nets a chance in game 2), and a big one, getting certain players in foul trouble so they have to sit.

The NBA's ideal champ is a big market team full of the sexiest stars, like the Jordan Bulls or Kobe-Shaq Lakers. They would love the Knicks to be a power, but no amount of bias could elevate the bad basketball teams the Knicks have fielded for years now. Next best for the league is a team like Miami, and even small market OKC, because they have young dynamic stars popular with kids. Even if the Pacers had not gone into a recent skid on their own, even if they were still playing great as they were earlier in the year, there is no way they would ever have been alowed to beat the Heat to get to the Finals. Barring a majot injury to Lebron or Wade that is. A team that plays well without supertars using teamwork and everyone contributing, like the Pacers, and the Raps too, are just not the glamorous type of team the NBA wants as champ. They never want a repeat of the ratings-killing Pistons-Spurs Finals of the mid 2000s.
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Re: Live now - Tim Donaghy on Fan 590 Raps/Nets Refs 

Post#418 » by WaltFrazier » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:04 am

CountOnAlex wrote:I think the referees should be separate from the NBA.

Only way to solve this issue


Yes, but hard to do, with so much money at stake. But to those who don't want to believe in league and referee bias, ask youself this honestly:

If somehow, hypothetically, the league brought in the finest FIBA refs in the world, or a group of the top NCAA refs. Put them through a pre-playoff training camp and brushup on NBA rules. Tell them call the NBA playoff games as basketball games, with no worrying about who is supposed to win. Beyond question, the results would be different, and fairer, than having the usual NBA refs work the games. What's my point? That fans have come to accept that the NBA is not a fair contest in the original sense of the word. The public accepts somehow, as if they are old school truths, that the refs favor the stars, younger players have to "earn respect", home court means a lot. It's often expalined away by saying, well it's the hardest sport to referee. Which is true, but doesn't mean the inherent bias of the NBA system that Donaghy explains, also doesn't exist.
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Re: Live now - Tim Donaghy on Fan 590 Raps/Nets Refs 

Post#419 » by kayliecee » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:29 pm

WaltFrazier wrote:
theonlyeastcoastrapsfan wrote:Donaghy is a criminal, but where would the justice system be if the words of criminals were automatically discounted as total lies.

As well, wouldn't it be also true that NBA has been proven to employ refs who fix games, and were unable to notice the activity when it was right under their nose, nor was there any sign, prior to if coming out publicly that his performance as a ref was in question? Makes you wonder, are they even looking?


Good point. I read the first few pages of this thread and was amazed how no on even refered to what Donaghy actually said on the Blair show. He has been in the room when NBA supervisors come to prep refs before a playoff game. He said how they make it clear what they want called between the 2 teasms, and how he as a ref would come away from those meetings knowing which team the league wanted to win. And how refs who toed the line and did what the league wants, get to work the next round and so on.

The other major point - a Brooklyn-Miami 2nd round series is hugely more profitable to the TV networks ratings, than TO-Miami. This isn't just a Toronto thing, it put the small market and less glamorous teams at a disadvantage. With muliple millions of TV dollars at stake, you have to be very naive to think there is no bias towrds teams with bigger stars, usually but not always from large markets.

Having watched the NBA since about 1070, I always suspected the league was not totally honest in its dealings. And it became more evident to me that it changed about 1991, under David Stern, when NBC paid huge money to win the contract from CBS. That coincided with the start of the Jordan dynasty title run. When I first heard that an NBA ref had been accused of betting on games, I thought oh no, this will be a distraction from showing the systemic bias of how the NBA operates, he will be seen as a rogue criminal. Because a ref gambling and the league systematically favoring certain teams are 2 different issues.

Then I finally got around to reading Donaghy's book. Turns out that, with his inside knowledge, his gambling succes was based on the exact referee bias that many had always accused the NBA of. He admitted his gambling, lost his job, served time. There is no reason to discredit his uncoveing of the league's inner workings because he is a "liar." He simply has nothing to lose now from antagonzing the NBA power structure. Whereas players, coaches, broadcasters, etc stand to lose a lot if they discredit the integrity of the NBA money machine.

I love Jack Armstrong, and in both games so far he has been on the verge of really complaining about how one sided the officiating has been. But then you can almost feel him bite his tongue and hold back, especially in game 1 when they showed a shot of Adam Silver at the game as Jack was going on about no fouls called in the 4th quarter. He knows, or likely was warned by the producer via headset, not to go too far in telling the truth. He could lose that job if the NBA found he was too critical of the refs.

How do I think it all works? Not by a memo from Stern or Silver saying, we want Miami to win in 6 this series. Nothing so direct. It's by the kind of inuendo from referee supervisors in meetings, that Donaghy talked about on the Blair show. Refs can easily make a 10 or more point difference in a game with no calls, phantom calls (like Pierce's and one call that alowed the Nets a chance in game 2), and a big one, getting certain players in foul trouble so they have to sit.

The NBA's ideal champ is a big market team full of the sexiest stars, like the Jordan Bulls or Kobe-Shaq Lakers. They would love the Knicks to be a power, but no amount of bias could elevate the bad basketball teams the Knicks have fielded for years now. Next best for the league is a team like Miami, and even small market OKC, because they have young dynamic stars popular with kids. Even if the Pacers had not gone into a recent skid on their own, even if they were still playing great as they were earlier in the year, there is no way they would ever have been alowed to beat the Heat to get to the Finals. Barring a majot injury to Lebron or Wade that is. A team that plays well without supertars using teamwork and everyone contributing, like the Pacers, and the Raps too, are just not the glamorous type of team the NBA wants as champ. They never want a repeat of the ratings-killing Pistons-Spurs Finals of the mid 2000s.


I agree with this. The NBA is a business that is focused on making money as a first priority and secondly, on seeming to be a fair, competitive environment. Every business lies and tries to cover up their lies. If they have two options, and one will make them more money, obviously they are going to choose the second option. The NBA has revenue projections at the start of every season. They have to. It's not a "let's wait and see how we do" kind of gig. So, now, they have some smaller-market teams in the playoffs and you can be sure they would rather have a Boston-LA type of final over a Toronto-Portland final. Don't tell me that NO ONE in the NBA is doing anything to tilt the games in the preferred direction. It may not be a mandate from the top, but things are happening.

The NBA came out with a statement that basically said Donaghy is a liar. But they never said that what he described doesn't happen. He gave too many details for it all to be untrue. And if the meetings didn't happen, the NBA would be very explicit in their denial. The fact that the NBA responded at all is indicative that they are worried.
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Re: Live now - Tim Donaghy on Fan 590 Raps/Nets Refs 

Post#420 » by Harold_and_Kumar » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:22 pm

MEDIC wrote:I agree with some others in this thread. Even though the foul count overall was equal, it didn't seem equal because of the way the game was managed.

A lot of little touch fouls called on the Raptors. It seemed like whenever the Raps got a bit of a lead, the refs started blowing the whistle every trip down the floor against them.

Also people mention the turnovers.....JV had 6 turnovers, but I thought some of them were obvious fouls. When an obvious foul gets missed & ends up in a turnover, that has a huge impact on the game.

I remember one play early where JV got hammered, Nets get the ball, then they call a little touch foul on Ross on the other end. I was like WTF was that.


This is my biggest problem beyond anything else.

It's not that they always make bad calls, it's that they do so at horrible times.

Maybe it's our roster full of non-stars, maybe it's a bigger conspiracy, I don't know. What I do know is that the 50/50 calls during key momentum shifts in the game more often than not go against us. From watching other non-big-market teams face big market teams, it happens to them as well. I'm not sure if in the heat of the moment, the ref naturally resorts to a bias and gives the foul on the "worse" player, or if there's a stronger push to cage momentum of specific teams or what, but something is happening here. I'd love to do a study and use data, but sadly I don't have the time. Even then, the rules are so subjective it'd all be questionable anyways.

tl;dr - You can easily make the fouls even out, yet still change the game by making 2-3 momentum breaking calls.

EDIT - My personal belief leans to what Walt Frazier referenced in his post

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