DFerry needs to make a BOLD Move to improve our Talent

[PandaKidd]

What SF would you bring in, and who would be your Starting 5 if Carrol is on the bench.

Teague
????
Korver
Millsap
Horford

Second 5:
Mack/DS
Lou Williams/Carroll
Scott
????
Antic

[ATLHawksfan21]

What SF would you bring in, and who would be your Starting 5 if Carrol is on the bench.

Teague
????
Korver
Millsap
Horford

Second 5:
Mack/DS
Lou Williams/Carroll
Scott
????
Antic

That's the million dollar question that I do not have an answer to. I haven't looked at the upcoming free agents so I'm not sure who all is available. I do have faith that Bud and Ferry will find the right guy though.

Personally, for me, the dream guy would be Melo if he would accept a deal at $20 million. I don't think he is going to be willing to take that big of a paycut though. A frontline of Melo, Millsap, Horford would be the most versatile frontline in the league and we would cause major issues for every team in the league.

[PandaKidd]

the top SF would be:

Melo
Rudy Gay (if he opts out)
Deng
Gordon hayward (YESSSSSSSS)
Granger


Shooting guards are barren. Nothing I would be interested in.

Centers would be Gortat, Monroe, hawes, Kaman, Asik (expiring)

PF:
Bosh,Zbo, Dirk, pau

I dont see anyone outside of Hayward that I truly think we would have a shot at.

[D21]

the top SF would be:

Melo
Rudy Gay (if he opts out)
Deng
Gordon hayward (YESSSSSSSS)
Granger

These two guys are for me the perfect example of overpaid SF
and their team got better once they sent them away.
Not saying they are not good players, but I would not sign them unless they accept a huge pay cut.

Hayward, for the right contract, would be a great addition.

[simon24]

What SF would you bring in, and who would be your Starting 5 if Carrol is on the bench.

Teague
????
Korver
Millsap
Horford

Second 5:
Mack/DS
Lou Williams/Carroll
Scott
????
Antic

Richard Jefferson. He already knows the Spurs system

[theatlfan]

Scott has NOT panned out for me, YET. He has not been consistent. I think he may need to have a BIG GAME tonight for us to win.

Not sure what to make of this statement either. Teague is even more inconsistent than Scott - just that his highs are higher. For what he provides and the role he's supposed to play, he's doing very well.

If you look at our Front Court, its the worst of the teams I listed IMO. Im not blaming AH injury on playing center, but its getting to the point that he is not dependable. hes missed 2 years out of 3. Hes our Derick Rose. Who is your backup PF/C next year? Pero Antic?

This is really the crux of the conversation right here. If you don't believe that Horford can get to the playoffs healthy, then my answer to that would be that we should tear down and rebuild. In the salary cap era, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If your depending on your highest paid player being out to deploy your #3 or 4 highest paid player then there should be some serious questions as to why you still have both of those players. Not saying I necessarily agree with your supposition on Horford's dependability (not saying I disagree either...), but yeah, if that's the problem, then we won't be winning championships anyway, so we might as well start over.

If we keep Millsap, then we have some depth there if he plays SF, we can have Korver/Scott

The problem becomes if we play AH at C, that means PM at PF. We are incredibly thin at C and PF. If youre telling me our depth chart is

C- AH/Muscala/BEBE/Pero Antic
PF- MIllsap/Pero

Then yeah, we have issues. Am I missing something?

The DC would be:
C-Horford(24)/Pero(24)/(Muscala/Bebe) (0)
PF-Millsap(33)/Horford(10)/Scott (5)
I think you're severely underselling this FC. I'm not saying that either is the best at his position and that goes a long way in the star driven culture of the NBA, but there are 2 AS there. There just aren't too many FC in the league that would want to matchup with those 2. Yeah, the backup aren't world beaters, but look closely at those minutes - all the backups combine for less minutes as either of the starters... and teams typically shorten up the rotation and give the starters more minutes in big games too. It isn't about winning with the backups as much as it's about just not losing with them - spending $8M on a backup C is simply overkill. If nothing else, I think Pero has proven he can at least give us that. Obviously, if Muscala, Bebe, or Scott step up, then the minutes are there to be won as well.

Al Horford has played both C and PF
Millsap has played both SF and PF

Not sure why you'd want to complicate things here: Horford has been an AS at C; Millsap has been an AS at PF. I could see the argument for moving Horford to PF (not saying I wholeheartedly agree with it), but moving Millsap to SF would be a complete disaster. Millsap wasn't keen on playing SF while in UTH and I can't think he'd all the sudden like it now. Further, I don't think he's got the athleticism to play the position on a FT basis anyway. Just get the feeling the plan here is to take an AS PF and make him into an average SF. If you're going this route, then just trade someone. If you don't feel like you can do it and keep any present and future plans in play, then we're stuck with Horford at C and Millsap at PF and we just have to go with that.

If AH is your C, and PM is your PF, then who is our SF? Korver?

I mean an starting 5 of :
Teague
Carrol
Korver
Millsap
Horford

isnt getting us to the ECF, sorry. And it has ZERO hope of winning a championship.

I think we need to shuffle AH back to PF, Millsap to SF, sign a center, Korver can be a combo 2 guard with Teague. OR move Korver to the 6th man role off the bench and sign a SF that can create his own shot

The funniest part of this post is that this is the starting lineup that you are actually pining for. From above, Millsap is no SF - it just won't happen. Spending additional money (and roster slots) for bigs means that we're stuck with the same players on the perimeter. I'm firmly with ATLHawks here in thinking that the next step would be to chase a wing. I'm on record with thinking that we should dump Lou and make a run at Lance, but I understand those who'd hesitate at the plan. For me, I just think that giving Coach Bud and his staff that much talent and he can polish the edges to a very nice shine.

[PandaKidd]

^^^ my point is the lineup wont be that much better than the initial 30 games this year we had AH, and I dont think it can contend with LAC or Spurs or Heat etc.

I just dont know if PM at PF and AH at C is a recipe for a championship (teague at PG) unless we get a Gordon Hayward at SF.

And I still think we are hanging a lot on 2 completely unproven big men (Muscala/Bebe) who I dont think can be much more than 3rd string backups, if even able to make the team. And our depth is a 31 year old macedonian rookie.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Well I think we can take Stevenson off the list with these new reports coming out about him getting in to a fist fight with Evan Turner before game 1.

[PandaKidd]

Ive said it forever, someone is going to MASSIVELY overpay for Lance Stephenson

[ATLHawksfan21]

Ive said it forever, someone is going to MASSIVELY overpay for Lance Stephenson

He hasn't impressed me at all in these first two games.

[theatlfan]

^^^ my point is the lineup wont be that much better than the initial 30 games this year we had AH, and I dont think it can contend with LAC or Spurs or Heat etc.

I just dont know if PM at PF and AH at C is a recipe for a championship (teague at PG) unless we get a Gordon Hayward at SF.

And I still think we are hanging a lot on 2 completely unproven big men (Muscala/Bebe) who I dont think can be much more than 3rd string backups, if even able to make the team. And our depth is a 31 year old macedonian rookie.

One thing to note: when our starters were fully healthy with Horford, then we were 18-7 (based on the article linked in the "Injuries" post below). That's a 59 W pace - IND took the East 1 seed with 58 Ws. Get an upgrade at the wing that can break out another 3-4 Ws and we're in the conversation - in terms of overall record - with IND and MIA. I realize there's a general consensus to overlook the injuries that struck seemingly all season long, but when we can put everyone on the court, we are actually pretty good.

After the writeups on Stephenson all day, I'm thinking we'll be more likely to take a rehab project for the wing position at this point. My attitude toward any position that looks semi-hopeless right now is "in Coach Bud I trust" after seeing what he and the staff did for guys like Carroll, Millsap, and Mack. With an entire off-season, I'd poll a few teams to see who'd available in trade and see if I could get a nice development project for next season. Former top 10 picks like Harrison Barnes and Aminu are interesting as well as taking on a rehab project like Jeff Green or Jared Dudley. Green is apparently "eminently available" according to a report on the front page here, and I'd guess Doc would send Dudley packing for nothing more than a TPE. No idea on either Aminu or Barnes though.

[PandaKidd]

I can roll with AH/PM combo, but I think we need depth to be able to rotate AH out, thats all im saying.

SF wise, I want GH. LEAVE JEFF GREEN ALONE

[hawkschop1]

would anyone consider using the amnesty clause on lou williams to free up more cap space to get someone like say a gordon hayward (RFA) this summer??

also, if they're available at the veteran's minimum or slightly above I'd love to see steve blake and maybe even emeka okafor on the squad next season

big game today. lets get it!

[PandaKidd]

Im not CBA savvy at all but I think Lou Williams contract is so cheap..............plus, you can only amnesty someone that was on your payroll during the LAST CBA, which clearly Lou Williams is not. The only person we could Amnesty would be Al Horford?

Someone correct me if im wrong.

Next year under contract we have:
AH
PM
JT
KK
Lou Will (expiring)
DMC (Expiring)
DS
John Jenkins
Pero
Mack has a QO
Muscala has a Team Option
That puts us at 48 million roughly, $63.2M is projected cap. Now, aside from Draft Picks, we should have PLENTY of money to offer a max contract to 1 RFA right?

I dont think we need that kind of cap space to get Hayward.

[ATLHawksfan21]

would anyone consider using the amnesty clause on lou williams to free up more cap space to get someone like say a gordon hayward (RFA) this summer??

also, if they're available at the veteran's minimum or slightly above I'd love to see steve blake and maybe even emeka okafor on the squad next season

big game today. lets get it!

Lou Will can still provide something to a team and he is an expiring contract so he shouldn't be that hard to move if we need to. We would not be able to amnesty him though and I don't think our owners would even consider it if it were possible.

[Jamaaliver]

One thing to note: when our starters were fully healthy with Horford, then we were 18-7 (based on the article linked in the "Injuries" post below). That's a 59 W pace - IND took the East 1 seed with 58 Ws.

theatlfan, I have the utmost respect for you. But this stat is bunk...horse poop...nonsense. I've seen a ton of Hawks fansites with similar claims that just are not true.

Horford went down in the 29th game of the season. We were 16-13. How could we have 18 wins with Horford if he left and we only had 16 wins total?

The truth is, we were barely above .500 in an incredibly weak Eastern Conference with AL. After that, the season fell apart, but because most teams behind us were losing on purpose our epic fall bottomed out in 8th place in the East.

NOTE: That 55% win percentage with AL only projects out to 45 wins. That doesn't take into account that Brooklyn, Washington, Chicago, Toronto all hit their strides after January.

[PandaKidd]

Im pretty sure we were hovering around .500 all season long, IIRC we held the 3 seed like 2 games over .500?

I swear we were 16/15 when AH went down.


EDI: JA beat me too it

[ATLHawksfan21]

Im pretty sure we were hovering around .500 all season long, IIRC we held the 3 seed like 2 games over .500?

I swear we were 16/15 when AH went down.


EDI: JA beat me too it

We were 16-13 but we were better than our record showed. The NBA really screwed us on scheduling in late December. We had a 4 games in 5 days set, then two days off and then another 4 games in 5 days set. With all of the games going back and forth between home and away. We lost 4 of the last 5 of that 8 games in 12 days set. Bad losses to Boston and Orlando and a loss to the Wizards.

[theatlfan]

One thing to note: when our starters were fully healthy with Horford, then we were 18-7 (based on the article linked in the "Injuries" post below). That's a 59 W pace - IND took the East 1 seed with 58 Ws.

theatlfan, I have the utmost respect for you. But this stat is bunk...horse poop...nonsense. I've seen a ton of Hawks fansites with similar claims that just are not true.

Horford went down in the 29th game of the season. We were 16-13. How could we have 18 wins with Horford if he left and we only had 16 wins total?

The truth is, we were barely above .500 in an incredibly weak Eastern Conference with AL. After that, the season fell apart, but because most teams behind us were losing on purpose our epic fall bottomed out in 8th place in the East.

Nice catch.

Before I write everything off - please 2x check my logic. First, here is the "Injuries" post that I referenced; here is the peachtree hoops article that post references. The pertinent quote is this:

The findings of this research are revelatory. The Hawks record after Horford went out for the season was 22-31. When fully healthy for the entire season they were 34-14 (.708). When fully healthy after the Horford injury the Hawks went 16-7 (.696). Even more impressively, since January 18 when fully healthy (without Horford) the Hawks were red hot with a record of 15-4 (.789).

Basically, I said that if we were 34-14 over the entire season and 16-7 without Horford, then we were 18-7 with him. As you've pointed out, this is straight impossible since we had 16 Ws when Horford went down.

So, is there something wrong with my logic? Looking over this, I think the error has to be coming from the article, but maybe I'm just not holding my mouth right. (Full disclosure: I'm really hoping it's me since the numbers in that article actually paint a very rosy picture...)

NOTE: That 55% win percentage with AL only projects out to 45 wins. That doesn't take into account that Brooklyn, Washington, Chicago, Toronto all hit their strides after January.

Im pretty sure we were hovering around .500 all season long, IIRC we held the 3 seed like 2 games over .500?

I swear we were 16/15 when AH went down.

The trick here is the "fully healthy" caveat. I know Korver missed a handful of games before Horford went down and I'd assume that Carroll did too (since Carroll seems to miss a game or 2 every few weeks due to throwing his body around in games with reckless abandon). If we were, hypothetically speaking, 2-6 in the games that another guy in the short rotation missed before Horford went down, then the overall "fully healthy" record would be 14-7.

From the article linked above, we were 1-6 in (post-Horford) games when the only other player out was either Carroll or Korver and I remember late in the season there being a storyline about how we didn't win a game without Korver (I think we eventually beat DET without him). Hence, I'd assume we showed a similar decline in Win% without a wing but with Horford as well. Now, we're not going to be able to easily cover for Teague or Millsap when they go down (although I'm not sure we'd want to - neither has missed many games over his career), but you'd think we could acquire a solid wing for relatively cheap that could shore us up when an injury hits. Hence, why my comment was that we'd want to get a wing who could give us 3-4 Ws since this would give us a bigger boost in the rankings than someone would otherwise think... Of course, the basis of the entire argument is now in question due to my questioning of the article above.

[theatlfan]

Im not CBA savvy at all but I think Lou Williams contract is so cheap..............plus, you can only amnesty someone that was on your payroll during the LAST CBA, which clearly Lou Williams is not. The only person we could Amnesty would be Al Horford?

Someone correct me if im wrong.

Next year under contract we have:
AH
PM
JT
KK
Lou Will (expiring)
DMC (Expiring)
DS
John Jenkins
Pero
Mack has a QO
Muscala has a Team Option
That puts us at 48 million roughly, $63.2M is projected cap. Now, aside from Draft Picks, we should have PLENTY of money to offer a max contract to 1 RFA right?

I dont think we need that kind of cap space to get Hayward.

Here is a post from the T&T board. The pertinent info here is that 8 guaranteed contracts + keeping 2 non-guaranteed contract (Muscala and Pero) + 2 cap holds for RFAs (QO for Mack and Scott) puts us just under $51M. Kick in ~$3M for cap holds for picks (Nogueira and #15 in June) and we're at ~$54M.

There's a lot of finagling to do, but I couldn't see us having the cap to offer the max to a 4-yr vet unless we deal someone. Lou seems like an obvious candidate, but the problem with dealing him is that the '15 FA class is incredible and we've got a bunch of cap room there as well with Millsap, Carroll, and Lou coming off the books. If we take on $$ going into '15, then our FA opportunities are greatly curtailed.