DFerry needs to make a BOLD Move to improve our Talent

PandaKidd · Post #161 » by **PandaKidd** » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:57 pm

Still fancy Teague for KI? Small sample size I KNOW, but , after this playoff series, what do you think Jamaaliver?

Im not so sure anymore. Maybe, sure everything we agree about KI > Teague is true, in terms of talent, offensive ability, etc.

I think teague is a superior passer and athlete.

But, what teague is doing, is ALMOST putting him in the top 10 conversation in PGs imo. If he can sustain this

theatlfan · Post #162 » by **theatlfan** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:39 am

^^ Surprised at this from a couple of folks around here. The thing people have to remember is that Kyrie has been 22 for barely a month; Teague is about 6 weeks shy of 26. If you see a HS SR is marginally the best player on his AAU team, then you think he's a pretty good player. If a FR is doing the same, then you think he could really be something special. I'm not saying that Kyrie is the best player on the planet or anything, but man - he's barely able to drink legally and he's already been an AS Starter and should be in line for playing on the Dream Team fairly soon. There's something to be said about that. Now, if you were to see the same jump in performance in Kyrie that we saw in Teague under Coach Bud, then you've got an honest to goodness superstar on our hands. Now, I admit to having a love/hate relationship with Teague (we've always seen the talent, but then along comes a Shelvin Mack to obviously outplays him for some critical stretches), but I don't think I'd deal him for just any return. Kyrie, OTOH, is definitely someone that I'd give Teague and more for.

PandaKidd · Post #163 » by **PandaKidd** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:54 pm

^^ Understood. But can KI run our system, thats the question

ATLHawksfan21 · Post #164 » by **ATLHawksfan21** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:11 pm

PandaKidd wrote:^^ Understood. But can KI run our system, thats the question

I would say the bigger questions are can he actually stay healthy and will he ever have the heart to play defense. Currently, the answers to these questions are no which means I want no part of him. Especially, if it means giving up Teague and 1st rounders and giving him a max contract.

Post #165 » by **Jamaaliver** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:45 pm

PandaKidd wrote:Still fancy Teague for KI? Small sample size I KNOW, but , after this playoff series, what do you think Jamaaliver?

Im not so sure anymore. Maybe, sure everything we agree about KI > Teague is true, in terms of talent, offensive ability, etc...But, what teague is doing, is ALMOST putting him in the top 10 conversation in PGs imo. If he can sustain this

Teague's play has been a revelation this series. This whole season really. I can say without hesitation...that we have to trade this guy immediately. If it were my call, I'd start trade talks in the middle of the playoffs.

He has played well. But we've had ample time to see what he is...a solid, veteran PG. A borderline All-Star. But not a player capable of carrying us to the next level. We need a superstar, and based on his age, production, contract and injury history, JT0 is the best bargaining chip to help us get one.

Keeping Teague won't be the worst thing in the world, but if we fancy gaining a superstar and potentially attracting others next off season, he has to be sacrificed for us to get to the next level.

Other observations:
-Bud is a keeper.
-This system is very PG friendly. KI, Westbrook, Rose, Rondo could each be dominant in it.
-While Horford is a better all-around player, I'm slowly coming around to the idea of keeping Millsap at PF and pursuing another Full Time Center.
-Pero Antic is a 3-pt shooting Center who can't 3-pt shoot.
-Carroll is indeed a keeper.

PandaKidd · Post #166 » by **PandaKidd** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:52 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
PandaKidd wrote:Still fancy Teague for KI? Small sample size I KNOW, but , after this playoff series, what do you think Jamaaliver?

Im not so sure anymore. Maybe, sure everything we agree about KI > Teague is true, in terms of talent, offensive ability, etc...But, what teague is doing, is ALMOST putting him in the top 10 conversation in PGs imo. If he can sustain this

Teague's play has been a revelation this series. This whole season really. I can say without hesitation...that we have to trade this guy immediately. If it were my call, I'd start trade talks in the middle of the playoffs.

View this as another Josh Smith situation I assume? Sell high because his high is not really sustainable?

He has played well. But we've had ample time to see what he is...a solid, veteran PG. A borderline All-Star. But not a player capable of carrying us to the next level. We need a superstar, and based on his age, production, contract and injury history, JT0 is the best bargaining chip to help us get one.

Do you think we have seen his ceiling? Do you think that perhaps under Drew/Woodson and other low IQ basketball players, his growth was stifled. Now its not?

Keeping Teague won't be the worst thing in the world, but if we fancy gaining a superstar and potentially attracting others next off season, he has to be sacrificed for us to get to the next level.

Agreed to a point

Other observations: Bud is a keeper. This system is very PG friendly. KI, Westbrook, Rose, Rondo could each be dominant. While Horford is a better all-around player, I'm slowly coming around to the idea of keeping Millsap at PF and puirsuing another FT Center. Pero Antic is a 3-pt shooting Center who can't 3-pt shoot. Carroll is indeed a keeper.

Pero is a stop gap. Dont expect him back next year.

Carroll, hes our Glue Guy imo

Post #167 » by **Jamaaliver** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:04 pm

PandaKidd wrote:View this as another Josh Smith situation I assume? Sell high because his high is not really sustainable?

Similar, but not identical. Smoove was clearly producing at a level (back in 2012) that couldn't be duplicated going forward. Factor in that we still weren't winning much during that time and that his stock was skyrocketing, it seemed obvious that he should be traded. (Seriously, if Gerald Wallace gets a lottery pick that year, imagine what Smoove would have gotten!)

Teague, I can see being a 16 & 6 guy for a few more years. And if we could get a top 15 player to play alongside him, I'd be in favor of that. But teams, fans, pundits are higher on JT0 today than ever before. Even if he duplicates this production in the future, his trade value will never be higher.

With one caveat: If Teague steps up and outplays John Wall/Bradley Beal, leading us past the Wizards to our first Conference Finals in city history, I will gladly eat crow. Beating up on an All NBA PG is more impressive than beating up on the corpse of George Hill.

And all this is still dependent on us beating Indiana in the first round. Still not a foregone conclusion.

PandaKidd · Post #168 » by **PandaKidd** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:16 pm

I agree. What Teague is doing, is putting him in a different class , but, its vs a terrible team and George Hill. And, hes had help. But , his production is enough for me to say, hes our PG.

However, KI would be hard to turn down considering the leaps he could make are top 10 in the LEAGUE, not just position. JT will never be a top 10 player.

He abuses John Wall....................................itll get interesting

ATLHawksfan21 · Post #169 » by **ATLHawksfan21** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:18 pm

How in the hell can you say we have seen the max of what Teague can do? This is his third year as a starter, in a new system, on a team that had different rotations all year due to injury. I'm sorry but this is crazy talk. Teague has plenty of room to develop, especially under Bud's teaching.

Teague has improved every year so far, but it's all of a sudden a given that he won't continue to? Give me a break.

ATLHawksfan21 · Post #170 » by **ATLHawksfan21** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:19 pm

PandaKidd wrote:I agree. What Teague is doing, is putting him in a different class , but, its vs a terrible team and George Hill. And, hes had help. But , his production is enough for me to say, hes our PG.

However, KI would be hard to turn down considering the leaps he could make are top 10 in the LEAGUE, not just position. JT will never be a top 10 player.

He abuses John Wall....................................itll get interesting

Paul George has defended Teague more than George Hill has, in this series, and since when are the Pacers a terrible defensive team? Paul George is one of the best perimeter defenders in this league.

PandaKidd · Post #171 » by **PandaKidd** » Thu May 1, 2014 2:58 am

Not this series man. They look lost defensively. We are dropping 100+ pt games on them.

Teague HAS NO JUMP SHOT. His offense will ALWAYS be limited. He can't pull up off the dribble which is why he has floaters and if its a late shot clock he's screwed if he can't get an open look.

Every other ELITE pg has a JUMP SHOT. KI, cp3 john wall curry parker etc. If teague wants to elevate his game he has to learn in this off season an elevating jump shot.

Otherwise we ARE SEEING HIS PEAK.

IMO of course. There's no question KI ceiling is higher. He has better offensive game.

Teague is clearly a better passer and athlete.

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ATLHawksfan21 · Post #172 » by **ATLHawksfan21** » Thu May 1, 2014 1:44 pm

PandaKidd wrote:Not this series man. They look lost defensively. We are dropping 100+ pt games on them.

Teague HAS NO JUMP SHOT. His offense will ALWAYS be limited. He can't pull up off the dribble which is why he has floaters and if its a late shot clock he's screwed if he can't get an open look.

Every other ELITE pg has a JUMP SHOT. KI, cp3 john wall curry parker etc. If teague wants to elevate his game he has to learn in this off season an elevating jump shot.

Otherwise we ARE SEEING HIS PEAK.

IMO of course. There's no question KI ceiling is higher. He has better offensive game.

Teague is clearly a better passer and athlete.

Sent from my VS980 4G using RealGM Forums mobile app

Did you ever think that the reason they are struggling defensively is because of our offense? Did you know that we put up 2 of the top 4 highest point totals on Miami this year? Our offense is making their defense bad. It's not like they just randomly forgot how to play defense.

Teague was obviously playing good enough to where they felt like they had to switch their best perimeter player on him which, in turn, opened things up for Korver. Paul George guarded Korver for the first two games and he shot 3/11 from 3. He has hit 12/25 from 3 in the last 3 games.

Kyrie is a better shooter. Teague runs an offense better, is a better athlete, plays better defense, isn't injury prone and makes less than half of what Kyrie would cost.

PandaKidd · Post #173 » by **PandaKidd** » Thu May 1, 2014 2:44 pm

I dont think any rationale human being can say they wouldnt take Kyrie Irving over Teague. you gain 5 years of youth, and a better skillset to mold.

Im just saying Teague is making a case that a lot of us are taking notice.

Kyrie Irving would cost double the money, because he would be double the player. Hes that (potentially) good.

Teague will never be an All Star MVP

Post #174 » by **Jamaaliver** » Thu May 1, 2014 3:10 pm

I feel like the Kyrie proposition is taking away from my larger point. The NBA has seen a stunning number of top players moved in the last 5+ years. And this franchise has stood pat, refusing to break up their core to gain a superstar.

Bruce Levenson wrote:The likelihood of us trading Josh at the trade deadline is as close to zero as you can get...There were a bunch of guys in the All-Star Game that I wouldn't trade for Josh, given what he brings not only to our team but to the community...

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7683520/bruce-levenson-atlanta-hawks-co-owner-dispels-josh-smith-trade-rumors

We've seen Chris Paul traded, James Harden traded, Deron Williams, Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol (in his prime), Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen. We're talking All Stars, All-NBA, Hall of Fame caliber players traded...mostly for garbage. And how many of those trade talks were we mentioned as a part of?

There are rumblings that young superstars Rajon Rondo, Russ Westbrook or Kyrie Irving could be made available this summer. Yet the fan base seems resigned to not even consider moving for one of the top players in the league. It's mind-boggling that after all this time we're still unwilling to even consider shaking up our roster in a move to gain more talent.

It's not about KI. It's about us taking a calculated risk to get a top player and move to the next level. We really more committed to a 16 & 6 player than the prospect of becoming a truly elite team?

PandaKidd · Post #175 » by **PandaKidd** » Thu May 1, 2014 3:15 pm

Well i dont think we should get a superstar to say we have a superstar. The last time we did that we wound up with Joe Johnson. Paid him a Kobe Contract.

I would NOT be interested in WB, I would be interested in KI because I believe Kyrie can be coached. He played for Coach K. K doesnt go after dumb IQ basketball players. I think KI is in a bad situation, and honestly he has handled it very well IMO ? right?

Westbrook, reason why im not interested, is we would have to give up Teague + MIllsap or Horford to get him IMO. Theres no way OKC doesnt ask for the moon for him. Hes got his deal, hes got his contract. 16 million a year. And , his knees bother me.

PandaKidd · Post #176 » by **PandaKidd** » Thu May 1, 2014 3:17 pm

http://www.fearthesword.com/2014/4/28/5 ... ott-rumors

Post #177 » by **Jamaaliver** » Thu May 1, 2014 3:24 pm

It takes superstars to attract superstars. Two years ago Dwight wanted nothing to do with HOU. Rockets acquire Harden in trade, makes the entire franchise more attractive. Rockets use one superstar (Harden) to attract another in free agency (Howard). Now Houston is mentioned as a potential destination for Melo.

We couldn't tank properly to get a lottery pick in a deep draft. We can't attract top free agents. Now we refuse to even consider trading modest players for superstars? This just sounds eerily similar to me...

ATLHawksfan21 · Post #178 » by **ATLHawksfan21** » Thu May 1, 2014 3:26 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:It takes superstars to attract superstars. Two years ago Dwight wanted nothing to do with HOU. Rockets acquire Harden in trade, makes the entire franchise more attractive. Rockets use one superstar (Harden) to attract another in free agency (Howard). Now Houston is mentioned as a potential destination for Melo.

We couldn't tank properly to get a lottery pick in a deep draft. We can't attract top free agents. Now we refuse to even consider trading modest players for superstars? This just sounds eerily similar to me...

James Harden is an overrated bum. They will never win a title with Harden as the main scorer. They don't have near the cap space to go for Melo either, even if God answers their prayers and convinces a GM to take those two horrible contracts in Lin and Asik.

ATLHawksfan21 · Post #179 » by **ATLHawksfan21** » Thu May 1, 2014 3:27 pm

PandaKidd wrote:I dont think any rationale human being can say they wouldnt take Kyrie Irving over Teague. you gain 5 years of youth, and a better skillset to mold.

Im just saying Teague is making a case that a lot of us are taking notice.

Kyrie Irving would cost double the money, because he would be double the player. Hes that (potentially) good.

Teague will never be an All Star MVP

and he would play half the games that Teague would as well. Irving will never be an MVP either.

Teague will be an all-star next year if we stay healthy. Guarantee it

ATLHawksfan21 · Post #180 » by **ATLHawksfan21** » Thu May 1, 2014 3:31 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:I feel like the Kyrie proposition is taking away from my larger point. The NBA has seen a stunning number of top players moved in the last 5+ years. And this franchise has stood pat, refusing to break up their core to gain a superstar.
Bruce Levenson wrote:The likelihood of us trading Josh at the trade deadline is as close to zero as you can get...There were a bunch of guys in the All-Star Game that I wouldn't trade for Josh, given what he brings not only to our team but to the community...
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7683520/bruce-levenson-atlanta-hawks-co-owner-dispels-josh-smith-trade-rumors

We've seen Chris Paul traded, James Harden traded, Deron Williams, Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol (in his prime), Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen. We're talking All Stars, All-NBA, Hall of Fame caliber players traded...mostly for garbage. And how many of those trade talks were we mentioned as a part of?

There are rumblings that young superstars Rajon Rondo, Russ Westbrook or Kyrie Irving could be made available this summer. Yet the fan base seems resigned to not even consider moving for one of the top players in the league. It's mind-boggling that after all this time we're still unwilling to even consider shaking up our roster in a move to gain more talent.

It's not about KI. It's about us taking a calculated risk to get a top player and move to the next level. We really more committed to a 16 & 6 player than the prospect of becoming a truly elite team?

You are completely wrong here. I would love to have a superstar. I was campaigning for Howard and Paul more than anyone last year. I just happen to think that Kyrie Irving is overrated as hell. He is flashy so people assume he is good. I've seen Teague work his ass numerous times and ya'll consider him a below-average PG. He has missed a ton of games thus far in his college and pro career. He plays zero defense. He doesn't do a good job of getting his teammates involved.

I would love to have a superstar but I don't want to overpay for one and send our franchise back in to the ice age.