Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong

[closg00]

Well Zard, what do you say now?

[Dat2U]

Sterling nixed the Ariza-Butler deal.

The Los Angeles Clippers were looking ahead to the playoffs and thought they could use a perimeter player with length and a defensive mindset.

So they set up a deal with the Washington Wizards that would have swapped Caron Butler for Trevor Ariza, according to David Aldridge at NBA.com. But the deal got shot down at the highest levels.

L.A. and Washington had a done deal Wednesday night that would have sent forward Trevor Ariza to the Clippers in exchange for Caron Butler, giving L.A. a long, defensive-oriented body to throw at the likes of Kevin Durant in the playoffs. (Butler, who still has an offseason home in the D.C. area, and who was loved by the locals, didn’t have a problem returning to a non-Arenas Wizards locker room. He’d have been welcomed back as a much-needed offensive option, according to sources.)

But sources indicated that Clippers owner Donald Sterling nixed the deal Thursday morning, not wanting to gamble on the team’s chemistry being affected in any way down the stretch.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... iza-trade/

See, this is why I'm more worried about the process than the results right now. Ernie will cannibalize his own roster if you give him enough time. The only reason Ariza wasn't having a career year for the Clips is because Sterling is even a bigger idiot than Ernie (and that's saying a lot). How do you forgive 10 years of incompetence over the time span of 2 weeks simply because every thing is breaking right for us at the moment?

[Kanyewest]

Ariza is the superior player especially defensively. Although Butler is currently starting for the Thunder. I would be curious to see how Butler would have fit in Washington. Butler was right now shooting 45% from 3 in the postseason with OKC- 44% with OKC during the regular season . Still I'm glad EG didn't make that deal.

[Spence]

I am not here to endorse the views of the original poster, but to salute him for the size of his grapes. I love the title of the thread. It's just fantastic. Kudos. There are good trolls and bad trolls and this is some quality trolling.

[TGW]

I am not here to endorse the views of the original poster, but to salute him for the size of his grapes. I love the title of the thread. It's just fantastic. Kudos. There are good trolls and bad trolls and this is some quality trolling.

Honestly, I have no problem with his viewpoint. If he thinks Grunfeld is a great GM, so be it. DCZards has a similar position, but he's consistent with his opinion, and he has no problem admitting when he's wrong. Although I disagree with 90% of what he believes, I respect the hell out of that guy. Millelie, OTOH, is a troll. His posting style is meant to invoke reaction and attention, positive or negative. He tried the negative troll route for awhile (there are pages of posts of him endlessly bashing every player on the team, the coach, the GM, and the owner) and wasn't getting the attention he wanted. So in true troll fashion he went the other way and become the uber-positive troll.

He's been banned from other boards, including extremeskins and a few others. I've seen his handle before on other boards.

[milellie111]

I am not here to endorse the views of the original poster, but to salute him for the size of his grapes. I love the title of the thread. It's just fantastic. Kudos. There are good trolls and bad trolls and this is some quality trolling.

Honestly, I have no problem with his viewpoint. If he thinks Grunfeld is a great GM, so be it. DCZards has a similar position, but he's consistent with his opinion, and he has no problem admitting when he's wrong. Although I disagree with 90% of what he believes, I respect the hell out of that guy. Millelie, OTOH, is a troll. His posting style is meant to invoke reaction and attention, positive or negative. He tried the negative troll route for awhile (there are pages of posts of him endlessly bashing every player on the team, the coach, the GM, and the owner) and wasn't getting the attention he wanted. So in true troll fashion he went the other way and become the uber-positive troll.

He's been banned from other boards, including extremeskins and a few others. I've seen his handle before on other boards.

You're over thinking things buddy. Obviously you are obsessed with me. I'm flattered. Changing your opinion on the team from 2 years ago based on development of players and newfound success is not trolling. Sorry for not staying negative and stuck in neutral like yourself.

Sure, I was a member of Extremeskins but was banned like many for not having the same opinion as a mod. For anyone that's been on Extremeskins they know TK and the mods over there power trip and cater to certain privileged posters, however if they don't like the way you think they will ban you. Just do some research. You seem like you fit in well over at Extremeskins. The typical arrogant know it all.lol

I

[montestewart]

I am not here to endorse the views of the original poster, but to salute him for the size of his grapes. I love the title of the thread. It's just fantastic. Kudos. There are good trolls and bad trolls and this is some quality trolling.

Honestly, I have no problem with his viewpoint. If he thinks Grunfeld is a great GM, so be it. DCZards has a similar position, but he's consistent with his opinion, and he has no problem admitting when he's wrong. Although I disagree with 90% of what he believes, I respect the hell out of that guy. Millelie, OTOH, is a troll. His posting style is meant to invoke reaction and attention, positive or negative. He tried the negative troll route for awhile (there are pages of posts of him endlessly bashing every player on the team, the coach, the GM, and the owner) and wasn't getting the attention he wanted. So in true troll fashion he went the other way and become the uber-positive troll.

He's been banned from other boards, including extremeskins and a few others. I've seen his handle before on other boards.

You're over thinking things buddy. Obviously you are obsessed with me. I'm flattered. Changing your opinion on the team from 2 years ago based on development of players and newfound success is not trolling. Sorry for not staying negative and stuck in neutral like yourself.

Sure, I was a member of Extremeskins but was banned like many for not having the same opinion as a mod. For anyone that's been on Extremeskins they know TK and the mods over there power trip and cater to certain privileged posters, however if they don't like the way you think they will ban you. Just do some research. You seem like you fit in well over at Extremeskins. The typical arrogant know it all.lol

I

Nice objectivist ending!

[montestewart]

I

[leswizards]

Changing your opinion on the team from 2 years ago based on development of players and newfound success is not trolling.

The title of this thread should be Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves milellie111 Wrong.

[leswizards]

Considering that milellie111 says he was wrong about EG, Randy, John Wall, Ted, et al, I am wondering when we should ever consider him to be right.

[milellie111]

And I've said it before but i'll say it again. Yes, I think Ernie Grunfeld is a great GM. Tom Thibbodeau obviously feels the same way. Grunfeld is garnering respect league wide now with the team he's put together. Just listen to analysts, commentators and other coaches and you see that they respect the Wizards and this team is a favorite to meet up with MIA in the ECF. I stand by my assertion. The proof is in the pudding. The proof is all of us fans cheering and jumping for joy we closed out CHI 3-1 and and are awaiting a winner of ATL/IND for round 2. What does this quote from the DPOY tell us?

“They had no holes on that team and a lot of talent – a lot of talent,” Noah said in the Bulls’ locker room with a stocking cap covering his long, curly hair. “Young guys. A lot of vets. Guys who have been there before and you’ve got to give that team a lot of credit. They came in and they deserved it.”- Joakim Noah http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wizards-insider/wp/2014/04/30/chicagos-joakim-noah-on-wizards-they-had-no-holes-on-that-team/?tid=pm_sports_pop

I agree with Noah and so do many others, however let some Wizards fans tell it, we have a team that is only good enough for a first round exit, a team filled with aging expiring vets, a team who will be crippled salary cap wise, a team who is lead by a GM who has set them up for failure. Recently, Grunfeld has done more good than bad. Sure, fire him. No doubt he will be receiving calls the same day for his services. Appreciate what he has done for this team and respect his work for bringing in Gortat/Ariza, Miller, flipping Mcgee for Nene, not giving up on Wittman whom the players respond to and a host of other positive moves not mentioned. I love my Wizards just like the next fan. I don't sugarcoat anything. If it stinks, it stinks. However, what I smell is sweet. Good playoff basketball from a young hungry competitive team led by a defensive minded coach and a great GM who stayed the course.

[milellie111]

Changing your opinion on the team from 2 years ago based on development of players and newfound success is not trolling.

The title of this thread should be Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves milellie111 Wrong.

You're right, he has proven me wrong. I am not afraid to admit it. I was impatient and irrational back then. We as fans only want to see immediate results and think short term. Grunfeld obviously knew his plan would take a while to reap results. I've seen the light now and can see the full picture clearly now. Just wish more Wizards fans would step out of the darkness and open their eyes.

[Nivek]

Where can I find this pudding? Didn't have lunch, and I'm hungry.

[tontoz]

Changing your opinion on the team from 2 years ago based on development of players and newfound success is not trolling.

The title of this thread should be Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves milellie111 Wrong.

[leswizards]

Where can I find this pudding? Didn't have lunch, and I'm hungry.

I wouldn't eat the pudding if I were you, considering that milellie111 has a habit of raving about how tasty **** sandwiches are.

[payitforward]

I agree with and understand criticizing EG for the numerous personnel mistakes he's made, but I don't understand why it's so hard to give him props for the beneficial moves he's made that have helped the Zards. Instead, EG either "stumbled into" those moves or got lucky.

I'm wondering where you get that idea. By and large, I think most people applauded the pick of Beal (one of those "beneficial moves"), for example. In just the way that picking Vesely was a bad move, picking Beal was a good one. As to "lucky" -- sometimes, sure! Is there some difference of opinion as to whether we had the chance to pick John Wall because of luck? That's obviously true.

[quote="DCZards"]Well, you should probably add Ariza to the good moves that EG "stumbled into." Two years ago, this board was white hot with criticism of the Ariza-Okafor trade. EG was being blamed for burning assets and cap room that could have been used to sign a Ryan Anderson or trade for Ersan Ilyasova. /quote]
I think I am never going to understand why people who are obviously intelligent fail to distinguish between a good player and a good trade to acquire that player. It doesn't seem all that complicated to me.

Trevor Ariza has been a good player his whole career, and he has certainly had a great season this year and been great in the playoffs. The problem wasn't that we traded for Ariza (whom NO obviously wanted to get rid of), but what we traded for Okafor and Ariza. Could there have been a *good* trade for Ariza -- sure, there can always be a good trade for a player. But we made a bad trade. And it was to get Okafor, mostly, don't you think? The guy we paid $14m to play 2000 minutes.

One could say the same about Gortat -- hey, I have been a fan of that guy for years! When he was signed away from Orlando, I gnashed my teeth that it wasn't my team, the Wizards, that signed him. And, without question, he's lived up to my expectations. But that does not mean that the trade Ernie made for one season of his services (and that's what we got -- even if you'd prefer to fuzz out that fact as if it didn't exist) was a good trade. It wasn't. Gortat is a good player; the trade for Gortat was not a good trade.

And those are pretty much the best moves anyone usually points to when talking about this rebuild -- although for my money there have been others as well. Ernie's moves in the Spring of 2010 were outstanding. He gave up nothing and got a ton of assets from the Bulls. Then Ernie traded up to get Booker, who is by far a better player than anyone taken after him in the rest of the 2010 R1. I would have likely picked Damion James, and I would have been wrong. Ernie gets big props for that pick. For all that work in fact.

Even moves that didn't work out aren't necessarily to be criticized -- picking Kevin Seraphin was a swing for the fences. It hasn't yielded anything, but I still think it was a move worth making. Trading Hinrich for Jordan Crawford and a mid-R1 pick in the '11 draft was, again, a terrific move. Crawford didn't work out, and Ernie wasted the pick on Chris Singleton -- but the deal w/ Atlanta was still terrific work on his part.

He also got a good deal on Martell Webster, and he was right to re-sign him. We might be over-paying him, but that's a meh issue. At the NBA level, the difference is pocket change.

But... that's it. That's all he did that was good. The rest (including the Okariza and Gortat trades as they were structured) has been just awful.

But now's not the time to worry about all that. We are winning; this is a time to enjoy it, ride it as far as it can go. Can we win a 2d series? Sure, why not? Can we beat Miami? Ummm... probably not, but it can be very competitive, so who knows? Maybe lightning will strike! Can we beat the Western Conference champions, whoever they are? I'm just not going to go there right now!!

Go Wiz!!

[DCZards]

PIF, I agree with most of your last post. Where I disagree is regarding the Okafor/Ariza and the Gortat trades. Of course, in a perfect world, both could have been better trades--or "structured" better. But in looking at the net results, as compared to what was sacrificed, I believe there's a lot to like about both trades.

Also, unlike you, I actually think Okafor made a significant contribution last season, giving the Zards the rebounder and rim protector that they desperately needed and helping to set a new tone of defense, toughness and maturity. I know you like to point out that the Zards only won 29 games last season when discussing Okafor, but it wasn't Emeka's fault that the team's two best players--Wall and Nene--were hurt. Those injuries were the chief reason for the lousy 2012-13 record, not Emeka's play which was solid.

But, as you say, let's leave the past in the past--and least for now--and enjoy this ride to the NBA championship.

[payitforward]

I agree with and understand criticizing EG for the numerous personnel mistakes he's made, but I don't understand why it's so hard to give him props for the beneficial moves he's made that have helped the Zards. Instead, EG either "stumbled into" those moves or got lucky.

I'm wondering where you get that idea. By and large, I think most people applauded the pick of Beal (one of those "beneficial moves"), for example. In just the way that picking Vesely was a bad move, picking Beal was a good one. As to "lucky" -- sometimes, sure! Is there some difference of opinion as to whether we had the chance to pick John Wall because of luck? That's obviously true.

Well, you should probably add Ariza to the good moves that EG "stumbled into." Two years ago, this board was white hot with criticism of the Ariza-Okafor trade. EG was being blamed for burning assets and cap room that could have been used to sign a Ryan Anderson or trade for Ersan Ilyasova.

I think I am never going to understand why people who are obviously intelligent fail to distinguish between a good player and a good trade to acquire that player. It doesn't seem all that complicated to me.

Trevor Ariza has been a good player his whole career, and he has certainly had a great season this year and been great in the playoffs. The problem wasn't that we traded for Ariza (whom NO obviously wanted to get rid of), but what we traded for Okafor and Ariza. Could there have been a *good* trade for Ariza -- sure, there can always be a good trade for a player. But we made a bad trade. And it was to get Okafor, mostly, don't you think? The guy we paid $14m to play 2000 minutes.

One could say the same about Gortat -- hey, I have been a fan of that guy for years! When he was signed away from Orlando, I gnashed my teeth that it wasn't my team, the Wizards, that signed him. And, without question, he's lived up to my expectations. But that does not mean that the trade Ernie made for one season of his services (and that's what we got -- even if you'd prefer to fuzz out that fact as if it didn't exist) was a good trade. It wasn't. Gortat is a good player; the trade for Gortat was not a good trade.

And those are pretty much the best moves anyone usually points to when talking about this rebuild -- although for my money there have been others as well. Ernie's moves in the Spring of 2010 were outstanding. He gave up nothing and got a ton of assets from the Bulls. Then Ernie traded up to get Booker, who is by far a better player than anyone taken after him in the rest of the 2010 R1. I would have likely picked Damion James, and I would have been wrong. Ernie gets big props for that pick. For all that work in fact.

Even moves that didn't work out aren't necessarily to be criticized -- picking Kevin Seraphin was a swing for the fences. It hasn't yielded anything, but I still think it was a move worth making. Trading Hinrich for Jordan Crawford and a mid-R1 pick in the '11 draft was, again, a terrific move. Crawford didn't work out, and Ernie wasted the pick on Chris Singleton -- but the deal w/ Atlanta was still terrific work on his part.

He also got a good deal on Martell Webster, and he was right to re-sign him. We might be over-paying him, but that's a meh issue. At the NBA level, the difference is pocket change.

But... that's it. That's all he did that was good. The rest (including the Okariza and Gortat trades as they were structured) has been just awful.

But now's not the time to worry about all that. We are winning; this is a time to enjoy it, ride it as far as it can go. Can we win a 2d series? Sure, why not? Can we beat Miami? Ummm... probably not, but it can be very competitive, so who knows? Maybe lightning will strike! Can we beat the Western Conference champions, whoever they are? I'm just not going to go there right now!!

Go Wiz!!

[Brenice]

Without the Ariza/Okafor/Gortat acquisitions, where would the Wizards be in its growth? Cleveland, Philly, Detroit? No playoff experience and certainly no respect. Those teams are attractive to free agents. Now look at the respect the Wizards, Beal/Wall are getting after 1 first round series VICTORY.

And for that first round pick traded for Gortat, I've asked before, who would we have gotten that we need if we had the pick? Nobody has an answer, some just complain about no draft pick. We don't need a guard or small forward. We need a young center and power forward. I see one center and no power forwards worth this playoff experience, Embid, that's it. How lucky would the Wizards have to have been to get him? How likely?

The trades were worth it when you focus on more than a draft pick.

[Santana Moss]

Sure, I was a member of Extremeskins but was banned like many for not having the same opinion as a mod. For anyone that's been on Extremeskins they know TK and the mods over there power trip and cater to certain privileged posters, however if they don't like the way you think they will ban you. Just do some research. You seem like you fit in well over at Extremeskins. The typical arrogant know it all.lol

I

Kill lull

Extremes kind mods are a collective group of narcissistic morons. Tk thinks he's important by virtue of spreading gossip that is unreliable while jumbo frequently writes drug induced rambling posts about nothing that I'm sure he probably gleams about.

Those morons don't realize extremes kind is great because of the community, instead they feel directly responsible as if it has nothing to do with direct traffic. Now that the user base has fallen off a cliff after the last update where the layout makes it impossible for the average user to figure out, will they take the blame? Nope, because that's the kind of pathetic lovers they are.

Instead I see they're discussing suicide by mod again. Imagine if realgm.com did that, the mods would be called out for being pieces of cap immediatel* written on phone excuse auto correct