Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2)

[tontoz]

sashae, I get what you don't like about the idea of resigning Gortat and Ariza..and I agree that if they are resigned that both might be good trade bait. But what I have not heard from you is the alternative to resigning Gortat and/or Ariza. What do the Zards have to do to be a consistent playoff team and a contender, especially if you let both Ariza and Gortat walk?

While Tontoz and others might rail against so-called "short-term thinking," the reality is that neither Ted nor the Zards fans base (or Wall and Beal for that matter) are going to buy into a "long-term thinking" of the Zards taking a step back and not making the playoffs the next 2-3 years as a route to building a contender. That train has left the station. The Zards will want and expect to at least be in the playoffs...and hopefully contending for a championship in the future.

Of course, that championship part will likely have to wait until KD comes home. But meanwhile it will be important that the Zards continue to get better and not worse, which I fear will happen with your "burn it down" strategy.

We may not even have a choice anyway. Gortat and Ariza are free to leave. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Dallas land one of them. No state takes in Texas plus they are a better team.

How exactly is KD going to come home if we resign Gortat and Ariza?

[Dat2U]

Beal was terrible in all our games against the Raptors. If he plays like he's been playing in the postseason, I don't think we would lose.

And please clarify that last line. Are you saying George Hill is better than Wall? Or you're assuming that Wall would definitely play below his potential in a hypothetical Washington-Toronto series, because he's playing below his potential against the Pacers?

I got criticized for this a couple of months back but at the time I said they have different roles but in their respective roles, George Hill has consistently outplayed John Wall. At the time I also said I'd take John Wall in a heartbeat over Hill but the facts were that Hill does things far more efficiently and effectively than Wall.

Now seeing Hill thoroughly outplay Wall all series, I have to say... George Hill is better than John Wall right now. To be honest, this shouldn't be without question now. I'd be lying to my own eyes if I said Wall was the better player. If had to rank guards in the East, I'd put Lowry & Hill over Wall.

Okay.

I would love to get into some of you guys' heads.

And I'd love to understand the logic that says you can be outperformed (notice I didn't say Hill was more productive) by someone throughout the course of the year, then dominated by that same person in match up, yet still claim that your clearly better or find it laughable that someone else disagrees.

Sometimes is okay to take off the homer glasses and see things for how they really are.

George Hill > John Wall until John Wall proves otherwise.

This is coming from one of John Wall's biggest fans and supporters. At some point you have to call a spade a spade.

[dckingsfan]

Maybe I am seeing it the wrong way - but I see a bunch of teams in the east primed for a jump or staying ahead of us...

Indy - I see some changes coming but the core keeps them above us
Miami - If they can resign the gang
Toronto - If they can resign Lowry and use their oodles of cap space
Chicago - Amnesty Boozer, Rose returns + 2 first round picks
Brooklyn - Most of the core back + Brook Lopez
Charlotte - Core back + late 1st + 10M player
Atlanta - Their core is coming back + Horford + 1st + $10M player

New York - don't think so, they are a mess
Cleveland - don't think so, but could
Detroit - don't thing so, they are a mess

Boston - Good young bigs + cap space + 2 first round picks
Orlando - Young core + cap space + 2 first round picks
Philadelphia - Young core + lots of cap space + 2 first round picks + Noel
Milwaukee - Young core + Lots of Cap space + likely a top 3 pick

[Deivy202]

But isn't a championship what everybody wants?

Again, that isn't what he said. You put words in his mouth and then argued against them. That is the definition of a strawman arguement. You made up a strawman so you could pretend like you are making sense.

We made the 2nd round as much because of luck as skill. We missed facing the Heat in the first round by a game. Then we faced a Bulls team who was missing their two best scorers from their opening day roster. And let's not forget that the Wizards wouldn't come close to making the playoffs in the west.

The Wizards are a good team, right now

No they aren't. They are an average team in a very weak conference. That's all

Are you assuming Derrick Rose is MVP level Derrick Rose? Chicago was a team that had nothing to do with Derrick Rose. You don't know if Chicago was better or worse with Rose. Nobody gave the Wizards an out when Gilbert got hurt and Cleveland kept getting lucky to play the Wizards in the playoffs. Better yet, did you give Ernie a pass that first year when Gil and Butler got hurt? LeBron sure got a lot of credit for that.

As for making the playoffs in the West. How do you know they wouldn't have played better in the western conference? I saw a team that played better against the better teams. Should have beaten OKC twice. Split with Portland. Factor in Nene being out and Gortat joining the Wizards late in the pre-season but yet you wonder why they gelled late and they won 44 games.

The Wizards are a team that is better than it's record. A good team.

I disagree. Dude the other conference would of blew our conference out I honestly believe the mava or blazers would of been the first or second best seed.



We arent as good as we are I have seene every game in every team in the playoff and they looked on fired and on top. We playrd a injured bulls team it wasnt that impressive now...if we had beatin the rockets or clippers thatd be different story.


You guys are crazy we have wall and beal but we need an elite player if qe wanna go far either durant or melo ok cus we wont have a elite player ( yet ) with wall or beal.


Stop all the lets trade with bucs or rockets for a avg starter. Go for the money like miami did I mean the rockets where good it was harden not showing up and lin fumble the ball to the blazers when they had a 2 point lead in a min. But howard made a huge difference.


Qe need a superstar and grunfield will look into that I doubt ariza back and gortart might go to dallas maybe. So we might sign cousins.

[tontoz]

For the record the Wizards were 11-19 against the West. That is not the mark of a good team. That is the mark of a Grunfeld team.

[Nivek]

Eastern Conference teams this year really can't make a claim to being better than their records. It's been a weak conference -- when I have some time, I'll take a look at just how weak. The Wizards were average this season. They've been about the same in the playoffs -- they looked better earlier when they were winning against the Bulls; they've looked worse recently when they've been losing to the Pacers. Way it goes -- teams look good when they win and bad when they lose.

[nate33]

Eastern Conference teams this year really can't make a claim to being better than their records. It's been a weak conference -- when I have some time, I'll take a look at just how weak. The Wizards were average this season. They've been about the same in the playoffs -- they looked better earlier when they were winning against the Bulls; they've looked worse recently when they've been losing to the Pacers. Way it goes -- teams look good when they win and bad when they lose.

C'mon, Nivek. Cut them a little slack. They were barely above .500 in the regular season despite a schedule filled with terrible opponents. They were 28-13 against non playoff teams. Which means they were 17-24 against playoff-caliber opponents.

In the playoffs, they've been 5-4 against playoff caliber opponents. Clearly, the Wizards are playing better in the postseason than their regular season record would suggest.

[montestewart]

Eastern Conference teams this year really can't make a claim to being better than their records. It's been a weak conference -- when I have some time, I'll take a look at just how weak. The Wizards were average this season. They've been about the same in the playoffs -- they looked better earlier when they were winning against the Bulls; they've looked worse recently when they've been losing to the Pacers. Way it goes -- teams look good when they win and bad when they lose.

C'mon, Nivek. Cut them a little slack. They were barely above .500 in the regular season despite a schedule filled with terrible opponents. They were 28-13 against non playoff teams. Which means they were 17-24 against playoff-caliber opponents.

In the playoffs, they've been 5-4 against playoff caliber opponents. Clearly, the Wizards are playing better in the postseason than their regular season record would suggest.

Or, they were 3-3 against the Bulls and the Pacers in the regular season. If they lose the next road game…

[payitforward]

The Wizards are a team that is better than it's record. A good team.

How can a team be better than its record? Team records are how we know how good the teams are.

We sure don't know by asking a team's fans....

[Brenice]

The Wizards are a team that is better than it's record. A good team.

How can a team be better than its record? Team records are how we know how good the teams are.

We sure don't know by asking a team's fans....

Wow! Here you go again only looking at things at surface level.

The 2013-2014 Wizards team is better than its record because:

1. Gortat was acquired at the end of training camp and chemistry had to be developed during the season as well as learning the system.
2. The signing of Gooden, Miller came 60 games into the season.
3. Beal did go thru somewhat of a "sophomore slump" during the season, but his play has been better as of late.

[dckingsfan]

The Wizards are a team that is better than it's record. A good team.

How can a team be better than its record? Team records are how we know how good the teams are.

We sure don't know by asking a team's fans....

Wow! Here you go again only looking at things at surface level.

The 2013-2014 Wizards team is better than its record because:

1. Gortat was acquired at the end of training camp and chemistry had to be developed during the season as well as learning the system.
2. The signing of Gooden, Miller came 60 games into the season.
3. Beal did go thru somewhat of a "sophomore slump" during the season, but his play has been better as of late.

Actually, that is a good point. So San Antonio and Miami that regularly rest their starters are also better than their record. Or a team that regularly has players injured is better than their record. I also like to look at the Wolves with their +/- and say they are better than their record.

Your point is valid but on a slippery slope.

[payitforward]

How can a team be better than its record? Team records are how we know how good the teams are.

We sure don't know by asking a team's fans....

Wow! Here you go again only looking at things at surface level.

The 2013-2014 Wizards team is better than its record because:

1. Gortat was acquired at the end of training camp and chemistry had to be developed during the season as well as learning the system.
2. The signing of Gooden, Miller came 60 games into the season.
3. Beal did go thru somewhat of a "sophomore slump" during the season, but his play has been better as of late.

Actually, that is a good point. So San Antonio and Miami that regularly rest their starters are also better than their record. Or a team that regularly has players injured is better than their record. I also like to look at the Wolves with their +/- and say they are better than their record.

Your point is valid but on a slippery slope.

No, his point is not valid -- and it's a cliff not a slippery slope.

Like most fans, Brenice isn't writing out of analysis or thinking; he's writing out of hope and his identification w/ the team. So he judges them by looking at their peaks. The team is whatever it is when it is playing its best. And their potential as a team is what he imagines when he dreams of every player playing his absolute best.

Because the range of performance is so wide for individuals, we actually play the games -- rather than just declaring the better team the winner. So, for sure, on a given night we'll beat OKC. For Brenice, *that* is our team. On another night, Indy will hold us to 63 points and win by 22. But, that performance Brenice ignores -- that's not us. Or that's us not being the real us. Or whatever.

That's why his point isn't valid. The reason it's a cliff is that when you think this way you build a bad team year after year time after time. I remember Ernie used to say "when we're healthy we can compete with anybody" back in '07. That is the prototypical "Grunfail" spin. And it's why you imagine you can trade a pick that would get you Stephen Curry in order to pick up a couple of rent-a-players, and you'll compete for a title.

Ernie has no other approach. He does the same thing over and over. Ted forced him to start "rebuilding through the draft", but as soon as he could do so he convinced Ted that it was time to put that behind us and go for the (fool's) gold.

[payitforward]

...So San Antonio and Miami that regularly rest their starters are also better than their record. Or a team that regularly has players injured is better than their record. I also like to look at the Wolves with their +/- and say they are better than their record.

Your point is valid but on a slippery slope.

Not to mention that for every team that is better than their record, there has to be another team that's worse than their record.

The whole notion is pointless.

[dckingsfan]

...So San Antonio and Miami that regularly rest their starters are also better than their record. Or a team that regularly has players injured is better than their record. I also like to look at the Wolves with their +/- and say they are better than their record.

Your point is valid but on a slippery slope.

Not to mention that for every team that is better than their record, there has to be another team that's worse than their record.

The whole notion is pointless.

Actually, that is the point of my pointless point

[Brenice]

Not to mention that for every team that is better than their record, there has to be another team that's worse than their record.

Chicago was worse than its record.

[dckingsfan]

Not to mention that for every team that is better than their record, there has to be another team that's worse than their record.

Chicago was worse than its record.

With or without Derek Rose?

Slip sliding...

[Nivek]

No, this is fun. Records don't matter, we all get to just assert how good teams actually are. The Wizards have been better than their record for YEARS now. Well, at least during the Grunfeld years. We can know this because Grunfeld sometimes makes good personnel moves. And, if you look at what those teams were capable of, they were easily 60+ win teams every year.

[montestewart]

Not to mention that for every team that is better than their record, there has to be another team that's worse than their record.

Chicago was worse than its record.

Indiana is better than its record. I get it. I'm going out on a limb: the Washington Generals are better than their record.

[Brenice]

Indiana is better than its record. I get it. I'm going out on a limb: the Washington Generals are better than their record.

That's yet to be seen. Miami may be better than its record. Indy worse.

[dckingsfan]

The beauty of your argument is that every GM can say that they are better than their record - total employment argument.