2014 Free Agency Thread

[BeesWax]

well you can be more talented and win less games, their (DET) talent didn't fit together

Sorry but MasterIchiro is right. Irving, Thompson, Waiters is better than Drummond and scraps. Jennings and Smith are both net negatives with their attitudes. KCP has a long way to go to be an effective player.

Cleveland is just more talented and has more potential right now in the players they have. It is pretty absurd to think that statement is absurd. You may argue but you can't put Detroit much ahead of Cleveland no matter how you think. I know a lot of people here think Detroit is the next coming of the Heat at something but I seriously doubt they do better next year than they did this year.

Are you really implying that Waiters is more talented than Josh Smith... Im just going to stay out of this one... See JDR's last post. Also, Irving is really overrated.

Smith is a cancer and one of the reasons they were terrible this year so yes. If you are saying he isn't what NBA have you been watching? It was easy to see how dumb it was to call his talent for Cavs over Pistons was absurd. It was true and absurd doesn't mean true man.

[Braggins]

It's one factor though, therefore my original statement is not 'absurd' or baseless. I'm not going tit-for-tat with the players with you because I just won this argument.

Lol, ok. You didnt even make an argument.

You accused my original statement of being borderline 'absurd' and I contested it and won that argument. I never said record is the 'only' indicator of talent. I said, 'for one' talent can be assessed by record.

Now I'm not going to discuss position by position because you entered the original conversation not in good faith. I didn't like your 'absurd' quip. It wasn't clever. So now we're done.

Haha, you kill me man. I like how quick you were to declare yourself winner of an argument despite basically saying nothing. All you said to "counter" my argument was pointing out their win totals, which isn't a completely baseless argument but is extremely hollow and not terribly relevant to what we are talking about. We are talking about talent, and you can't really win that argument without going tit-for-tat comparing the players. I really don't care to go into this further because I see now how you argue... Say something borderline pointless and declare yourself winner without even addressing the topic on anything more than the absolute most surface level. So yeah, I guess we are done. Feel free to respond with something if you insist on having the last word.

[Braggins]

Sorry but MasterIchiro is right. Irving, Thompson, Waiters is better than Drummond and scraps. Jennings and Smith are both net negatives with their attitudes. KCP has a long way to go to be an effective player.

Cleveland is just more talented and has more potential right now in the players they have. It is pretty absurd to think that statement is absurd. You may argue but you can't put Detroit much ahead of Cleveland no matter how you think. I know a lot of people here think Detroit is the next coming of the Heat at something but I seriously doubt they do better next year than they did this year.

Are you really implying that Waiters is more talented than Josh Smith... Im just going to stay out of this one... See JDR's last post. Also, Irving is really overrated.

Smith is a cancer and one of the reasons they were terrible this year so yes. If you are saying he isn't what NBA have you been watching? It was easy to see how dumb it was to call his talent for Cavs over Pistons was absurd. It was true and absurd doesn't mean true man.

Um, I thought we were talking about talent? Not attitude and the fit of the players on their respective teams. I think the "Josh Smith is a cancer" argument is overblown and his terrible performance last year was more due to playing out of position. Josh Smith was pretty much elite in Atlanta and is a tremendous talent. I don't think Atlanta could have been a top 3/4 team in the east for a few years if Smith was such a cancer. I think he is more talented than anyone on Cleveland's roster. The same goes for Drummond in my opinion. I was including Monroe when I made my original statement. Leaving him out, which I'm not necessarily disagreeing with, does make this more of an argument. Without Monroe and Deng included I still think Detroit has 3 of the 4 most talented players on either roster and the top 2. Even if you think I'm underselling Irving I still think Detroit has the edge. Thanks for actually making an argument, which is exactly what I was asking for when I made my original post.

[HornetJail]

If talent was the only thing that made a team, Detroit would be a top 5 team in the conference. Talent-wise, they have three all-stars or near-all-stars. Two of them are just SO STUPID and the other one is a second-year player just 20 years old. They certainly have more talent than Cleveland and it isn't close. It's just that half the team is brain-dead when it comes to BBIQ

[MasterIchiro]

Are you really implying that Waiters is more talented than Josh Smith... Im just going to stay out of this one... See JDR's last post. Also, Irving is really overrated.

Smith is a cancer and one of the reasons they were terrible this year so yes. If you are saying he isn't what NBA have you been watching? It was easy to see how dumb it was to call his talent for Cavs over Pistons was absurd. It was true and absurd doesn't mean true man.

Um, I thought we were talking about talent? Not attitude and the fit of the players on their respective teams. I think the "Josh Smith is a cancer" argument is overblown and his terrible performance last year was more due to playing out of position. Josh Smith was pretty much elite in Atlanta and is a tremendous talent. I don't think Atlanta could have been a top 3/4 team in the east for a few years if Smith was such a cancer. I think he is more talented than anyone on Cleveland's roster. The same goes for Drummond in my opinion. I was including Monroe when I made my original statement. Leaving him out, which I'm not necessarily disagreeing with, does make this more of an argument. Without Monroe and Deng included I still think Detroit has 3 of the 4 most talented players on either roster and the top 2. Even if you think I'm underselling Irving I still think Detroit has the edge. Thanks for actually making an argument, which is exactly what I was asking for when I made my original post.

You were looking for an actual argument with me but you tried to engage me with an insult 'absurd'. So either you weren't looking for an actual argument or you just suck at engaging someone in conversation. You gave me no reason to go into any depth or to elaborate because your introduction was emotionally charged. So not only is this the 'last word' on this topic but the last time I want you quoting my comments especially if that's your approach to have someone make an argument.

[Eoghan]

You just refuse to believe that the Pistons will get marginally better next season, and I'm not going to argue your opinion because it's your opinion as well as belief, but I just have to disagree. Of course we'd have to wait & see what type of moves Detroit make this offseason before anointing them automatic playoff contenders, but just hiring a more than competent coach like Stan Van Gundy will go a long way

I can acknowledge they will marginally improve but I'm more bullish on the teams around them - Cavs, Celtics, Knicks, Kings.

They're not touching us, I'll tell you that much.

[LofJ]

The Pistons have zero incentive to tank, they're going to go all in with what they have. The best outcome for that pick now is for it to be conveyed this year (and hope we don't pick Harris). If it carries over and we don't trade it the best it will be is a late lottery pick. I guarantee you that is about where the rest of the league values that pick now.

Edit: That said there is a decent possibility the Pistons lose Monroe for nothing. Unless they're willing to use the rest of their cap to match the near max offer he's going to get they'll have to let him go. In that case the pick would definitely go up in value.

[BeesWax]

Are you really implying that Waiters is more talented than Josh Smith... Im just going to stay out of this one... See JDR's last post. Also, Irving is really overrated.

Smith is a cancer and one of the reasons they were terrible this year so yes. If you are saying he isn't what NBA have you been watching? It was easy to see how dumb it was to call his talent for Cavs over Pistons was absurd. It was true and absurd doesn't mean true man.

Um, I thought we were talking about talent? Not attitude and the fit of the players on their respective teams. I think the "Josh Smith is a cancer" argument is overblown and his terrible performance last year was more due to playing out of position. Josh Smith was pretty much elite in Atlanta and is a tremendous talent. I don't think Atlanta could have been a top 3/4 team in the east for a few years if Smith was such a cancer. I think he is more talented than anyone on Cleveland's roster. The same goes for Drummond in my opinion. I was including Monroe when I made my original statement. Leaving him out, which I'm not necessarily disagreeing with, does make this more of an argument. Without Monroe and Deng included I still think Detroit has 3 of the 4 most talented players on either roster and the top 2. Even if you think I'm underselling Irving I still think Detroit has the edge. Thanks for actually making an argument, which is exactly what I was asking for when I made my original post.

I get it now. I see where you are making your mistake. Talent is more than potential it is realized potential translated into skill.
Irving most talented on either roster right now.
Drummond most potential talent but has a long road to get there.
Waiters second most talented player on either roster.
Smith used to be talented but the game he is playing now shows little of his past talents.
Thompson is a talented hard worker big.
KCP is nothing but potential right now.
Monroe is talented but not on the team right now and if he is there goes their cap room.
Jennings has some skills but talent drops because of low BBIQ.
Both teams have money to spend and a lottery pick so I would have to put the edge firmly in Cleveland's favor here.

[MasterIchiro]

Drummond is the only truly talented player on the Pistons and he's still raw.

When you start including guys like Josh Smith is when you get into trouble.

I think Monroe gets a max deal and they lose him for nothing.

[mrknowitall215]

When you start including guys like Josh Smith is when you get into trouble.

Josh Smith is better than Josh McRoberts & Cody Zeller combined. The problem is that he make more money than both of them combined

[catch20two]

When you start including guys like Josh Smith is when you get into trouble.

Josh Smith is better than Josh McRoberts & Cody Zeller combined. The problem is that he make more money than both of them combined

Exactly. I would love Smith on our team to play alongside Jefferson but his price tag is risky. He's paid like a 1st-2nd option when he'd be best served as a 3rd option with good defense.

[JDR720]

Drummond is the only truly talented player on the Pistons and he's still raw.

When you start including guys like Josh Smith is when you get into trouble.

I think Monroe gets a max deal and they lose him for nothing.

Smith is a very very talented player...he just lacks brain cells, losing Monroe might be addition by subtraction, losing him means Smith can play PF (where he is really really good) which fixes spacing problems

[JDR720]

Talent Definition



No where in this says anything about being smart or potential

[Braggins]

Smith is a cancer and one of the reasons they were terrible this year so yes. If you are saying he isn't what NBA have you been watching? It was easy to see how dumb it was to call his talent for Cavs over Pistons was absurd. It was true and absurd doesn't mean true man.

Um, I thought we were talking about talent? Not attitude and the fit of the players on their respective teams. I think the "Josh Smith is a cancer" argument is overblown and his terrible performance last year was more due to playing out of position. Josh Smith was pretty much elite in Atlanta and is a tremendous talent. I don't think Atlanta could have been a top 3/4 team in the east for a few years if Smith was such a cancer. I think he is more talented than anyone on Cleveland's roster. The same goes for Drummond in my opinion. I was including Monroe when I made my original statement. Leaving him out, which I'm not necessarily disagreeing with, does make this more of an argument. Without Monroe and Deng included I still think Detroit has 3 of the 4 most talented players on either roster and the top 2. Even if you think I'm underselling Irving I still think Detroit has the edge. Thanks for actually making an argument, which is exactly what I was asking for when I made my original post.

I get it now. I see where you are making your mistake. Talent is more than potential it is realized potential translated into skill.
Irving most talented on either roster right now.
Drummond most potential talent but has a long road to get there.
Waiters second most talented player on either roster.
Smith used to be talented but the game he is playing now shows little of his past talents.
Thompson is a talented hard worker big.
KCP is nothing but potential right now.
Monroe is talented but not on the team right now and if he is there goes their cap room.
Jennings has some skills but talent drops because of low BBIQ.
Both teams have money to spend and a lottery pick so I would have to put the edge firmly in Cleveland's favor here.

Yeah, I'm not making any mistake. You are using a very specific contrived personal definition of what talent is. Josh Smith is just as talented as he ever was. Waiters isn't nearly as talented as Smith and especially not Drummond. You can make a case for Irving but his absolute lack of any sign of defensive potential is a huge negative for me and why I put Smith and Drummond ahead of him. Smith is a dominant two way player when he plays up to his potential and Drummond is one of the most talented players in the league.

[Braggins]

Drummond is the only truly talented player on the Pistons and he's still raw.

When you start including guys like Josh Smith is when you get into trouble.

I think Monroe gets a max deal and they lose him for nothing.

When you start saying players like Josh Smith aren't talented I really can't take you seriously.

[BeesWax]

Um, I thought we were talking about talent? Not attitude and the fit of the players on their respective teams. I think the "Josh Smith is a cancer" argument is overblown and his terrible performance last year was more due to playing out of position. Josh Smith was pretty much elite in Atlanta and is a tremendous talent. I don't think Atlanta could have been a top 3/4 team in the east for a few years if Smith was such a cancer. I think he is more talented than anyone on Cleveland's roster. The same goes for Drummond in my opinion. I was including Monroe when I made my original statement. Leaving him out, which I'm not necessarily disagreeing with, does make this more of an argument. Without Monroe and Deng included I still think Detroit has 3 of the 4 most talented players on either roster and the top 2. Even if you think I'm underselling Irving I still think Detroit has the edge. Thanks for actually making an argument, which is exactly what I was asking for when I made my original post.

I get it now. I see where you are making your mistake. Talent is more than potential it is realized potential translated into skill.
Irving most talented on either roster right now.
Drummond most potential talent but has a long road to get there.
Waiters second most talented player on either roster.
Smith used to be talented but the game he is playing now shows little of his past talents.
Thompson is a talented hard worker big.
KCP is nothing but potential right now.
Monroe is talented but not on the team right now and if he is there goes their cap room.
Jennings has some skills but talent drops because of low BBIQ.
Both teams have money to spend and a lottery pick so I would have to put the edge firmly in Cleveland's favor here.

Yeah, I'm not making any mistake. You are using a very specific contrived personal definition of what talent is. Josh Smith is just as talented as he ever was. Waiters isn't nearly as talented as Smith and especially not Drummond. You can make a case for Irving but his absolute lack of any sign of defensive potential is a huge negative for me and why I put Smith and Drummond ahead of him. Smith is a dominant two way player when he plays up to his potential and Drummond is one of the most talented players in the league.

No I am using the definition. Natural aptitude or skill. The way you are looking at it we would be better if we put Jordan on the floor. The fact is Smiths talent is not where is used to be because he has not grow room and has regressed. I am sorry but it is true. I know you badly want to believe these guys are some great secret but the skill is not currently there. Drummond could get there but the skill is not there yet. The talent advantage runs to Cleveland the potential may run the other way but those are very different things. Smith sucks and has a negative net value so if you are demoting Irving for his lack of defense is Smith may be the worst guy on either team. Drummond has one of the highest potentials in the league but his talent has not gotten there yet.

[BeesWax]

Drummond is the only truly talented player on the Pistons and he's still raw.

When you start including guys like Josh Smith is when you get into trouble.

I think Monroe gets a max deal and they lose him for nothing.

When you start saying players like Josh Smith aren't talented I really can't take you seriously.

When you say he is your credibility is shot.

[BeesWax]

Talent Definition



No where in this says anything about being smart or potential

thanks for proving my point. Smith lacks the aptitude to play team basketball. He can't shoot and has no concept of team both fundamental to basketball. Also they were all there last year and did not show a capacity for as much success as Cleveland. Thank you for the help.

[BeesWax]

Drummond is the only truly talented player on the Pistons and he's still raw.

When you start including guys like Josh Smith is when you get into trouble.

I think Monroe gets a max deal and they lose him for nothing.

Smith is a very very talented player...he just lacks brain cells, losing Monroe might be addition by subtraction, losing him means Smith can play PF (where he is really really good) which fixes spacing problems

He is a good athlete but not a talented player. He can't perform fundamental parts of the game at a high level. He is a poor shooter and passer. He has a low BBIQ causing him to be out of place to often. He only excels at being an athlete not being a basketball player. When he loses his athletic ability he will immediately become worthless.

[Braggins]

I get it now. I see where you are making your mistake. Talent is more than potential it is realized potential translated into skill.
Irving most talented on either roster right now.
Drummond most potential talent but has a long road to get there.
Waiters second most talented player on either roster.
Smith used to be talented but the game he is playing now shows little of his past talents.
Thompson is a talented hard worker big.
KCP is nothing but potential right now.
Monroe is talented but not on the team right now and if he is there goes their cap room.
Jennings has some skills but talent drops because of low BBIQ.
Both teams have money to spend and a lottery pick so I would have to put the edge firmly in Cleveland's favor here.

Yeah, I'm not making any mistake. You are using a very specific contrived personal definition of what talent is. Josh Smith is just as talented as he ever was. Waiters isn't nearly as talented as Smith and especially not Drummond. You can make a case for Irving but his absolute lack of any sign of defensive potential is a huge negative for me and why I put Smith and Drummond ahead of him. Smith is a dominant two way player when he plays up to his potential and Drummond is one of the most talented players in the league.

No I am using the definition. Natural aptitude or skill. The way you are looking at it we would be better if we put Jordan on the floor. The fact is Smiths talent is not where is used to be because he has not grow room and has regressed. I am sorry but it is true. I know you badly want to believe these guys are some great secret but the skill is not currently there. Drummond could get there but the skill is not there yet. The talent advantage runs to Cleveland the potential may run the other way but those are very different things. Smith sucks and has a negative net value so if you are demoting Irving for his lack of defense is Smith may be the worst guy on either team. Drummond has one of the highest potentials in the league but his talent has not gotten there yet.

You are completely ignoring the natural aptitude/capacity for success aspects. They aren't secrets. Everyone knows they are talented. Josh Smith is one year removed from averaging 17.5 pts, 8.4 reb. 4.2 ass, 1.8 blk, 1.2 stl, on 46.5% shooting, while playing elite level defense and being the focal point of a really good Atlanta team. Drummond is one of the most freakish athletes in the entire NBA and already dominates multiple aspects of the game at age 20. I don't know how you are denying the supreme amount of talent these players possess. Waiters probably isn't even a starter in this league and you are saying he is more talented than a guy like Smith who has led really good teams deep into the playoffs and was a borderline superstar before the fiasco of a season in Detroit. I don't think my credibility has suffered at all in the eyes of anyone other than you and MasterIchiro. I think I can live with that.