The Right time to make a BIG Move

[Jamaaliver]

Just reading the tea leaves from around the league. There will be ample opportunities to make aggressive moves this summer as teams are forced to re-assess long and short term goals. Just a few of the pieces in play:

1. MIN-

Timberwolves are under pressure to begin consider trade scenarios for Kevin Love, according to sources.

"For the first time, [Flip Saunders] sounds like looking at deals for [Love] is an option," one rival executive told Yahoo Sports.

2. CLE-
Speculation is that the Cavs are in for a major overhaul and that no players on the roster are untouchable, even Kyrie Irving and Dion Waiters.http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2014/05/many_more_changes_in_story_for.html

3. Boston-

Ainge and his staff will consider trading this year’s lottery pick, and Ainge added that he doesn’t have patience for another losing season.

http://www.hoopsrumors.com/2014/04/celtics-trades-draft.html

4. Lakers-

Kupchak maintained his stance from last month’s exit meetings that the Lakers are open toward trading their current first-round pick should they find a suitable offer.

http://www.dailynews.com/sports/20140516/lakers-gm-mitch-kupchak-keeping-open-mind-with-coaching-search-draft-pick

5.Utah-

Dennis Lindsey about trading picks: "I don't think with where we're at anything is sacred. You have to listen to everything."

https://twitter.com/tribjazz/status/467748985021923328

[Jamaaliver]

Ferry himself has alluded to the fact that being aggressive indeed a big part of this summer's plans:

“We look forward to the summer with the draft and free agency,” Ferry said in his season ending recap interview. “This is an important summer. They’re all important summers. Hopefully we can make good decisions, take appropriate risks and continue to build on what was a good year for us.”
Read more at http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-a ... pDKZ4To.99

From marc Stein a few weeks ago:

2. So what sort of offseason do you envision from Danny Ferry?

The Hawks want another major piece. They know they need at least one more even if Horford makes a fast and full recovery from the two unfortunate shoulder separations he's endured these past two seasons.

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/category/_/name/atlanta-hawks

[HMFFL]

Pursing any big name would be a blessing.
Love, Irving, or early first round pick(s) would be nice.
I just hope our front office purses the talent needed and makes it public.

[SBM]

We have never been aggressive enough.

Even a guy like Deron Williams if he could get healthy would be a major chip. Problem is I doubt he can ever be trusted to stay healthy again.

When you say we need another major chip. That is basically admitting that Teague, Sap, and Horford are our current major chips and you really don't want to give any of those up. You want to add to those.

I would throw Sap, Bebe, Dennis, 15th pick, and 2 more 1sts at Minny for Love. Other than that I would rather keep our best 3 if we had to trade them for any of the above mentioned players.

[atlantabbq99]

Although i am a big Jeff Teague fan, now would be the time to trade him, but i don't see many teams interested in him, because their are so many quality point guards in the NBA, maybe the Kings or Pistons, but that is it.

[SBM]

Once again the point is not to trade your major pieces. The point is to add a major piece. Trading Jeff Teague to someone like Sac would not net you a major piece back. They are not giving you Cousins and they don't have anything else worth receiving in a trade outside there lottery pick.

Teague for Westbrook great
Teague for Chris Paul great
Teague for Curry great
Teague for Irving, probably not because he will want max and is not worth it.

Honestly I would argue that Sap is the guy ripe for the picking. Expiring contract coming off of 1st all-star appearance. Probably would not have made it if Al was on the team. Sap, Teague, and Al need to stay unless you can get Love. I don't see the Lakers, Celtics, or Utah trading there pick if it is top 3. I don't see any of those teams trading us a lottery pick of 4-11 without getting Horford back and it's not worth that.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Irving and D-Will - NO THANKS

Love - Maybe but I am still on the fence on this one. I just don't know if I want to give a max salary to a post player who is a liability on the defensive end. You can get away with having a defensive liability at guard a lot easier than you can in the paint.

[Jamaaliver]

Love - Maybe but I am still on the fence on this one. I just don't know if I want to give a max salary to a post player who is a liability on the defensive end. You can get away with having a defensive liability at guard a lot easier than you can in the paint.

Offensive spacing is greater than what ever small increase on defense that a traditional center would bring.

Just last month you said Pero Antic and his 3-pt shooting was more valuable than interior defense and would lead us on a long post-season run. Now, a massively better offensive big man comes along and a lack of interior defense is a potential deal breaker?

Interesting...

[MaceCase]

It's simple, Pero was never a liability on defense so whatever you are gaining in offense you are also losing in defense making the gap more negligible between Pero's impact and Love's talent. Not to say that Pero is in the same league as Love but once you have to consider all of the downstream effects such as contract and the fact that you actually need a defensive big to cover for all of Love's shortcomings you get the sense that it isn't as cut as dry as "oh this big can shoot better". Afterall, Love and Pekovic formed the worst defensive big man duo in the league while Roy Hibbert has looked like an All Star against every big man in the playoffs but Pero.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Love - Maybe but I am still on the fence on this one. I just don't know if I want to give a max salary to a post player who is a liability on the defensive end. You can get away with having a defensive liability at guard a lot easier than you can in the paint.

Offensive spacing is greater than what ever small increase on defense that a traditional center would bring.

Just last month you said Pero Antic and his 3-pt shooting was more valuable than interior defense and would lead us on a long post-season run. Now, a massively better offensive big man comes along and a lack of interior defense is a potential deal breaker?

Interesting...

LOL. You never cease to amaze me. You quote the post and then pull stuff straight out of your ass and act like it's a part of the post you quoted.

Yes, I do believe offensive spacing is better than a traditional center. When I made this statement, I was talking about keeping Milsap and Horford as our frontcourt instead of a Horford/Asik frontcourt. If you cant see the difference between what I was saying and the crap that you just posted, then you need to step up your comprehension game.

Milsap and Horford are both solid defenders in the paint. They may give up some size, but they still do a good job. Love is just bad defensively. Quit trying to turn my words in to something completely different than what they are.

[Jamaaliver]

Just last month you said Pero Antic and his 3-pt shooting was more valuable than interior defense and would lead us on a long post-season run. Now, a massively better offensive big man comes along and a lack of interior defense is a potential deal breaker?

Interesting...

LOL. You never cease to amaze me. You quote the post and then pull stuff straight out of your ass and act like it's a part of the post you quoted.

Yes, I do believe offensive spacing is better than a traditional center. When I made this statement, I was talking about keeping Milsap and Horford as our frontcourt instead of a Horford/Asik frontcourt. If you cant see the difference between what I was saying and the crap that you just posted, then you need to step up your comprehension game.

Milsap and Horford are both solid defenders in the paint. They may give up some size, but they still do a good job. Love is just bad defensively. Quit trying to turn my words in to something completely different than what they are.

I don't believe this true. I think it might actually be an outright lie...because that's not what the conversation was about anymore. You were basking in the glory of the Game 1 win versus Indy. I stated we needed a Center. PK stated we needed a Center. Azure mentioned that Brand and Pero had performed admirably. ATLFAN asked why PK and I thought were still looking to acquire a Center.

You chimed in that traditional bigs were outdated. That the shooting range of our current bigs was greater than what a traditional Center brought defensively.

NO ONE had mentioned Asik for days.
Sixteen POSTS had been created since anyone even mentioned Asik.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1300553&start=100

[ATLHawksfan21]

Just last month you said Pero Antic and his 3-pt shooting was more valuable than interior defense and would lead us on a long post-season run. Now, a massively better offensive big man comes along and a lack of interior defense is a potential deal breaker?

Interesting...

LOL. You never cease to amaze me. You quote the post and then pull stuff straight out of your ass and act like it's a part of the post you quoted.

Yes, I do believe offensive spacing is better than a traditional center. When I made this statement, I was talking about keeping Milsap and Horford as our frontcourt instead of a Horford/Asik frontcourt. If you cant see the difference between what I was saying and the crap that you just posted, then you need to step up your comprehension game.

Milsap and Horford are both solid defenders in the paint. They may give up some size, but they still do a good job. Love is just bad defensively. Quit trying to turn my words in to something completely different than what they are.

I don't believe this true. I think it might actually be an outright lie...because that's not what the conversation was about anymore. You were basking in the glory of the Game 1 win versus Indy. I stated we needed a Center. PK stated we needed a Center. Azure mentioned that Brand and Pero had performed admirably. ATLFAN asked why PK and I thought were still looking to acquire a Center.

You chimed in that traditional bigs were outdated. That the shooting range of our current bigs was greater than what a traditional Center brought defensively.

NO ONE had mentioned Asik for days.
Sixteen POSTS had been created since anyone even mentioned Asik.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1300553&start=100

Here's my exact post that you are talking about.

"Every one wants a traditional Center but they fail to realize that traditional Centers aren't exactly needed anymore.

Offensive spacing is greater than what ever small increase on defense that a traditional center would bring."


I'm not sure how you get this quote that you just made "Just last month you said Pero Antic and his 3-pt shooting was more valuable than interior defense and would lead us on a long post-season run. Now, a massively better offensive big man comes along and a lack of interior defense is a potential deal breaker?" from what I said in the above statement.

[Jamaaliver]

Just trying to get a feel for where you stand.

You said:

Every one wants a traditional Center but they fail to realize that traditional Centers aren't exactly needed anymore.
Offensive spacing is greater than what ever small increase on defense that a traditional center would bring.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1300553&start=100

The following day (same thread) you said:

The fact is, Pero and Teague are going to win this Indy series for us. He's going to be a major factor in the next round as well. Think about the possibilities when we get Horford back. We could potentially play Milsap/Horford/Antic together which would put Horford on a PF like some of yall have been begging for, while we maintain our spacing that is so detrimental to the other team.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1300553&start=120

Sounded like you were championing adding Antic to the frontcourt because of the floor spacing he could allow.

But today you said:

Love - Maybe but I am still on the fence on this one. I just don't know if I want to give a max salary to a post player who is a liability on the defensive end. You can get away with having a defensive liability at guard a lot easier than you can in the paint.

Which is why I mentioned it. It sounded as if you were on board adding Antic to the frontcourt despite his defensive limitations because of his floor spacing. Yet you were against adding Love (a greater offensive weapon) largely because of his defensive shortcomings.

But these two ideas seem to be in direct contrast with one another...

[azuresou1]

Look guys let's not derail the conversation about who said what in the past. IMO it makes sense to just talk about the potential impact of a guy like Love.

I was actually just talking about Love yesterday with my buddies, and IMO despite being one of the most talented players, he is ultimately a cancerous guy who doesn't help his team anywhere as much as he should.

Offensively, he can shoot like no one's business, and his post game is also polished. However, he can't create consistently for himself (for an All-Star player) because no one respects his ability to drive, and he doesn't post up as much as he should. As a result, Minnesota has one of the worst crunch-time offenses in the league, despite having more talent than other teams.

Defensively, he is slow as molasses laterally and has below-average defensive awareness. He provides no defensive value outside of his rebounding. He is probably the worst starting 4 in the league defensively after Ryan Anderson, David Lee, and whoever NYK runs at the 4.

Finally, his attitude screams selfish entitled cancer. For the past couple of season, he has publicly posed ultimatums to his front office to get better players or trade him - how do you think his teammates feel about that? Just yesterday, Rubio called him out for not being a leader, and he's reportedly in the past yelled at his teammates for MAKING open shots rather than passing him the ball. He is a stats-oriented player, which is blatantly obvious by the way he will turn for box-out position instead of contesting shots. Look at this stellar example:

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/3962811 ... efense.gif

You know when people say someone is a pro's pro, meaning that they do all the small things necessary to win? Kevin Love is the polar opposite of that. He does literally none of those small things.

Now with all that said... would I still rather him over Millsap? Of course, the talent discrepancy there is huge. But I certainly wouldn't give up Millsap and a king's ransom worth of young players and picks.

[Jamaaliver]

Cards on the table, I haven't seen enough Kevin Love games to make fully realized statement on his defensive limitations or his attitude. But his offensive abilities are a no-brainer and with the right defensive pieces next to him, he could fit in well in our system. Offensively, we're talking Duncan in his prime.

I wanted to run a comparison though of defensive numbers against a few of K-Love's contemporaries. I chose this year's K Love numbers (age 25) against 2006 Nowitzki (age 27) and 2008 Pau Gasol (age 27). I chose this because of the comparable age, and this the year each player helped lead their respective team to an NBA Finals APPEARANCE.

Love's defensive rating is right smack in the middle:

This reinforces my thinking that a team built to cover his defensive deficiencies could indeed thrive in both the regular season and post-season. Gasol, obviously, had Kobe to make a difference at both ends of the floor. But DAL featured defensive Centers Erick Dampier and Desagna Diop to compensate defensively.

Makes me think a top team could indeed be built around Love. Let's not forget that his T-Wolves team actually won more games than us last season.

I definitely see a frontcourt of Horford/Love as an improvement on Horford/Millsap.
Sadly, we don't have the assets to make the trade happen without gutting the team in the process.

[atlantabbq99]

Once again the point is not to trade your major pieces. The point is to add a major piece. Trading Jeff Teague to someone like Sac would not net you a major piece back. They are not giving you Cousins and they don't have anything else worth receiving in a trade outside there lottery pick.

Teague for Westbrook great
Teague for Chris Paul great
Teague for Curry great
Teague for Irving, probably not because he will want max and is not worth it.

Honestly I would argue that Sap is the guy ripe for the picking. Expiring contract coming off of 1st all-star appearance. Probably would not have made it if Al was on the team. Sap, Teague, and Al need to stay unless you can get Love. I don't see the Lakers, Celtics, or Utah trading there pick if it is top 3. I don't see any of those teams trading us a lottery pick of 4-11 without getting Horford back and it's not worth that.

I don't see Sap getting much interest from other teams. He is an all star, but you have to consider age and contract. Maybe Golden State would be interested in Sap, but that is it.

As for Teague, he could get a lottery pick, maybe between the Kings and the Pistons and who ever misses out on Marcus Smart might look into trading a pick for Teague.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Just trying to get a feel for where you stand.

You said:

Every one wants a traditional Center but they fail to realize that traditional Centers aren't exactly needed anymore.
Offensive spacing is greater than what ever small increase on defense that a traditional center would bring.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1300553&start=100

The following day (same thread) you said:

The fact is, Pero and Teague are going to win this Indy series for us. He's going to be a major factor in the next round as well. Think about the possibilities when we get Horford back. We could potentially play Milsap/Horford/Antic together which would put Horford on a PF like some of yall have been begging for, while we maintain our spacing that is so detrimental to the other team.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1300553&start=120

Sounded like you were championing adding Antic to the frontcourt because of the floor spacing he could allow.

But today you said:

Love - Maybe but I am still on the fence on this one. I just don't know if I want to give a max salary to a post player who is a liability on the defensive end. You can get away with having a defensive liability at guard a lot easier than you can in the paint.

Which is why I mentioned it. It sounded as if you were on board adding Antic to the frontcourt despite his defensive limitations because of his floor spacing. Yet you were against adding Love (a greater offensive weapon) largely because of his defensive shortcomings.

But these two ideas seem to be in direct contrast with one another...

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I guess you are comparing Antic and Love defensively? I think Antic is a far superior one on one defender in the post than Love. Love is obviously a much better player but Love alone would cost near what Milsap and Horford cost combined. I would rather keep Milsap and Horford on bargain deals and use the extra money to improve our wings and bring in a backup big.

In my opinion, these 3 are the most overrated "stars" in the league. I don't think any of these 3 players will lead a team even close to a championship and I don't want to pay 20 million to a player who doesn't play a huge factor in the Win column.

Those 3 players are:

James Harden
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love

[ATLHawksfan21]

Cards on the table, I haven't seen enough Kevin Love games to make fully realized statement on his defensive limitations or his attitude. But his offensive abilities are a no-brainer and with the right defensive pieces next to him, he could fit in well in our system. Offensively, we're talking Duncan in his prime.

I wanted to run a comparison though of defensive numbers against a few of K-Love's contemporaries. I chose this year's K Love numbers (age 25) against 2006 Nowitzki (age 27) and 2008 Pau Gasol (age 27). I chose this because of the comparable age, and this the year each player helped lead their respective team to an NBA Finals APPEARANCE.

Love's defensive rating is right smack in the middle:

This reinforces my thinking that a team built to cover his defensive deficiencies could indeed thrive in both the regular season and post-season. Gasol, obviously, had Kobe to make a difference at both ends of the floor. But DAL featured defensive Centers Erick Dampier and Desagna Diop to compensate defensively.

Makes me think a top team could indeed be built around Love. Let's not forget that his T-Wolves team actually won more games than us last season.

I definitely see a frontcourt of Horford/Love as an improvement on Horford/Millsap.
Sadly, we don't have the assets to make the trade happen without gutting the team in the process.

but it's not as easy as just Horford/Love vs Horford/Milsap. You have to factor in salaries. I don't know the exact figures but I would assume Love's next max will end up averaging close to $20 million per year. That's double what Milsap is making. Can Love provide double the production that Milsap does? I don't think so. We would also be giving up picks and players so it would cost us more than double Milsap's salary.

[Jamaaliver]

but it's not as easy as just Horford/Love vs Horford/Milsap. You have to factor in salaries. I don't know the exact figures but I would assume Love's next max will end up averaging close to $20 million per year. That's double what Milsap is making. Can Love provide double the production that Milsap does? I don't think so. We would also be giving up picks and players so it would cost us more than double Milsap's salary.

Fair point. But remember, both Millsap AND Love are Free Agents are next summer. And they'll both be looking for a raise.

We gutted the team to make runs at top Free Agents. Any top Free Agent will have flaws. But Love out produces Dwight Howard and compares favorably to Dirk in his prime.

Either we're willing to pay a Free Agent a max salary for top tier production, or we're going the 20004 Pistons route of building a low cost team of vets....

I thought the whole point of clearing salaryw as to make a FREE AGENT splash.

[PandaKidd]

Klove is not a Center, we already have a PF. SO unless we are shipping out AH for KLOVE, whats the point?

Can you envision a team with AH at C and KLOVE at PF? I guess. Would that work?

Love is out IMO because its not what we need. We need a SF/SG. Millsap and Lou Will are the trade chips IMO. Who needs a Millsap type character?