Zubby wrote:I would love to take a chance on Horford. He would be the best pf for this team, he can do everything, shoot, defend, pass, mobile. One of the most underrated players in the league.
I doubt Atlanta would trade him.
MaxRider wrote:ChokeFasncists wrote:How about:
Asik + cash to Atl
Shabazz + Shved + Minny 2nd round pick to Atl
Millsap to Min
Harden to Min
Love and KMart to Hou
DMC to Hou
horrible
since millsap is playing like an all-star
atlanta may doubt horford injured history
maybe we can get horford instead
Zubby wrote:Horrible, the whole point of going after Love, Melo, or Rondo is to pair them with Howard & Harden.
That just makes no sense, for one Harden is better than Love.
How the hell does Minnesota flip a disgruntled allstar and get two back in return? That will never happen, they will get capspace and draft picks/young potential.
Thanks for the honesty.MorbidHEAT wrote:My dislike for Lin started during Linsanity. It was absurd. It's probably irrational dislike at this point, but man he gets on my nerves. He's been tearing us up though.
ChokeFasncists wrote:MaxRider wrote:ChokeFasncists wrote:How about:
Asik + cash to Atl
Shabazz + Shved + Minny 2nd round pick to Atl
Millsap to Min
Harden to Min
Love and KMart to Hou
DMC to Hou
horrible
since millsap is playing like an all-star
atlanta may doubt horford injured history
maybe we can get horford instead
I don't think they are trading Horford, he's their franchise player. Unless of course, they think he's injured, but then it'd be risky for us.Zubby wrote:Horrible, the whole point of going after Love, Melo, or Rondo is to pair them with Howard & Harden.
As I said and someone else has said, any combination of Love, Melo and Harden is not gonna be very good at D. I don't think any combination of Parsons, TJ, Asik and Lin could beat some of the other offers. However, the combination of Love and Dwight would be fantastic, it'd be a once in a decade kinda duo. We can't get something this good without giving up value unfortunately.That just makes no sense, for one Harden is better than Love.
How the hell does Minnesota flip a disgruntled allstar and get two back in return? That will never happen, they will get capspace and draft picks/young potential.
Well, that's not a bad deal for them, that's why they might like to do it over some of the other deals they'd get. Some people think Harden is better, some think Love is better. I think they don't want to rebuild once again. Perhaps you could convince to give up the 13th pick this year.
Think about it, Dwight and Love would be devastating. In this deal, we also get a good 3 and D wing and a good shooter both our offense and defense would improve. Our depth in every position would be set, especially if DMo can man the backup C position. It's just an opportunity to improve the team.
RollingWave wrote:I'm sure Morey will explore options, but given where everything's at it seems rather unlikely to pull off anything significant. we don't have a ton of future value pieces to give at this point. at least, nothing that is likely to entice teams to give a super star for.
Picks : we have our picks (likely to be very late) and a bunch of seconds.
Players : at this point the highest future value player is Jones, who's putting up stats but not really helping team win games that much. Parson's future value is all but gone given that anyone who trade for him will extend him immediately at a probably overreaching price (say 10-12 m.)
On top of that, money matching would demand you trade at least one if not both of Lin / Asik, who's payment issue has proven to be a strong barrier. forget about getting assets to trade them, you'd be lucky to not give assets at this point since your dealing from a position of weakness, and it's not like either player are horrific players who you'd be better without .
BaYBaller wrote:RollingWave wrote:I'm sure Morey will explore options, but given where everything's at it seems rather unlikely to pull off anything significant. we don't have a ton of future value pieces to give at this point. at least, nothing that is likely to entice teams to give a super star for.
Picks : we have our picks (likely to be very late) and a bunch of seconds.
Players : at this point the highest future value player is Jones, who's putting up stats but not really helping team win games that much. Parson's future value is all but gone given that anyone who trade for him will extend him immediately at a probably overreaching price (say 10-12 m.)
On top of that, money matching would demand you trade at least one if not both of Lin / Asik, who's payment issue has proven to be a strong barrier. forget about getting assets to trade them, you'd be lucky to not give assets at this point since your dealing from a position of weakness, and it's not like either player are horrific players who you'd be better without .
You forgot to factor in the team option on Parsons contract. It is more than plausible that HOU trades Parsons and the new team declines his option and immediately resigns him to a new deal, but at less $ per year. It would work out for Parsons because he could still earn more $ over the life of the contract since he's hitting his payday a year earlier.
I don't think shedding Asik or Lin is going to be a huge issue as well, especially Asik since he wants to leave and will likely has no problem playing for a bottom dweller if he gets starter minutes. He might actually have value. For Lin we'll probably have to toss in a pick and cash or something, but he's not deadweight he's a serviceable player, just overpaid. It's not very onerous for the acquiring team since they are both expiring as well, especially if traded midseason.
My main concern is that to go through all this trouble we have to get someone who is worth it. For example I think the team would be worse with DWill when you net out Asik/Lin/Parsons contributions. But I think Love is one of those players who would make us better. I also believe if we could possibly get Millsap or Horford we could possibly keep Parsons and that would also make a strong contending team.
BaYBaller wrote:I would do Asik + Jones for Millsap in a heartbeat. Millsap is light years ahead of Jones. I remain skeptical Jones is going to develop into anything more than a serviceable back-up on a contending team given his defensive woes (some of which can't be fixed, like his size). Jones would have to become an offensive juggernaut to make up for his defensive efficiencies, which is something I don't see happening given his shaky jumpshot. Remember that Jones was a post player in college.
Millsap on the otherhand has developed into a very solid 3pt shooter recently. He can pick and pop. He is an above average rebounder. He won't kill us at the stripe. He's basically just solid all around, very versatile. He would be perfect here. Horford would be good too but from everything I've seen ATL wants to keep Horford.
I don't think we're favorities for Love or anything. A lot depends on what teams Love is willing to be traded to. We don't have the full picture yet.
RollingWave wrote:welp, overall this season I think the most regrettable aspect was us ditching the twin tower so early, since it both created the Asik mess and as it turned out in the playoff anyway we had to use that lineup.
Thanks for the honesty.MorbidHEAT wrote:My dislike for Lin started during Linsanity. It was absurd. It's probably irrational dislike at this point, but man he gets on my nerves. He's been tearing us up though.
Zubby wrote:Lebron, KG, Pau, Paul, Bosh, Melo, Dwight all these stars that asked out never got a return of an established player equal to or better than themselves. Pretty much all got capspace and young talent.
Love is not going to get James freaking Harden, not to mention also receiving Paul Millisap.
No one cares if Sota doesn't want to rebuild they can retain Love and watch him walk away next year.
Harden will be here for another what, 4 years, Morey isn't going to go all out for Love. Its funny, i'm sure you wrote Parsons was a stat padder but praise Love. Love, the guy who had more talent this year on his team & the "better" coach than Harden did last year, and Minnesota couldn't even get a winning record.
Just look at that trash team, who the hell would get Howard or Love the ball? That would be horrible to watch, Martin dribbling off his foot and hiding from the ball, Lin dribbling around like a headless chicken. Would need to go small with Bev in just to bring the ball up.
Thanks for the honesty.MorbidHEAT wrote:My dislike for Lin started during Linsanity. It was absurd. It's probably irrational dislike at this point, but man he gets on my nerves. He's been tearing us up though.
ChokeFasncists wrote:Zubby wrote:Just look at that trash team, who the hell would get Howard or Love the ball? That would be horrible to watch, Martin dribbling off his foot and hiding from the ball, Lin dribbling around like a headless chicken. Would need to go small with Bev in just to bring the ball up.
Nothing to worry about, we did fine in that department when Harden was out.
*PS. It's very interesting, I posted this trade on the Minny board and the Atl board. In the Minny board, some people don't want to do it and some people think it's too good. In the Atl board, there's this spectacular debate about whether we're better off with Harden. Well, jury's still out I guess.
RollingWave wrote:ChokeFasncists wrote:Nothing to worry about, we did fine in that department when Harden was out.
*PS. It's very interesting, I posted this trade on the Minny board and the Atl board. In the Minny board, some people don't want to do it and some people think it's too good. In the Atl board, there's this spectacular debate about whether we're better off with Harden. Well, jury's still out I guess.
It's not like Harden's not turnover prone when trapped either. I do think we'll be a in a world of trouble against a good trap team like the Heat, but it's not like we wouldn't be either right now.
Also, one aspect we overlook is that Love is a very very good passer, especially up court / cross court. so we could perhaps solve some of that problem by say.. inbound to one of Lin / Bev then pass to Love who throws it down court to who ever's darting.
Still, at the end of the day it's a fun theoretical but there's no realistic way we're trading Harden given how the team invested in him PR wise, I have my doubts we can even trade Parsons due to his effect on Howard coming over.
So really, unless the Hawks want to do something like Asik and Jones for Millsap or Boston do something like Lin and Asik for Rondo (I personally think Boston way overestimates Rondo's value and ability but whatever.), we're pretty much stuck with this team as it is except we replace some of Casspi / Garcia / fillers with another MLE / draft player or 2, and it may not really be a bad thing anyway. I could see potentially if Jones improve more and/or this team finally figure out how to consistently play together and in late games we'd be just fine. would it lead to a title? ehhh, we need some serious luck to break our way, but let's face it, unless you have Lebron your never going to be favorites to win titles (well unless you have Greg Popovich as your coach apparently. )
I'd be happy as long as we're pretty consistently in the 2nd round and threaten WCF going forward, But I just look at history and realize that this is basically the new Jordon era in the sense that like back then, the west have like 6 great teams that keep beating the crap out of each other and whoever emerge in a given year is more luck than anything else.
Thanks for the honesty.MorbidHEAT wrote:My dislike for Lin started during Linsanity. It was absurd. It's probably irrational dislike at this point, but man he gets on my nerves. He's been tearing us up though.
ChokeFasncists wrote:Agreed except Rondo, he is great in everything else except for shooting. There is rumor that he improved his shooting cuz of his injuries. What do you think is not good about him? He can pass, defend, slash, rebound etc. (but I certainly don't think he can coexist with Harden)
RollingWave wrote:The problem is that a lot of things attached to him are not matched up with the end result, for example, the Celtics were 6-24 with Rondo this year (20%!!!) and 19-37 without him. (34%) , this is the second strait year where the Celtics were a better team without Rondo. (they were 18-20 when he went down last year, 23-20 the rest of the way.)
The funny things is that Beverley is actually exceptional in terms of working well with the team, aka the team's +/- was much worse without him. it doesn't matter if he was paired with Lin or Harden or both , when he's around things work. One does wonder if he was actually 100% in the playoffs.
Assist is like RBI in baseball, a lot of folks look at a guy with high assist and automatically assume he is a great PG just like some folks look at RBI and assuming 90-100 RBI must mean he's a great hitter, when in reality there's a lot of problem with these assumption.
The Celtics offense with their personnel featured a lot of plays where Rondo makes a small PnR and then dump it off effortlessly to KG or say Brandon Bass for a long 2 jump shot. that count as an assist, that also require almost no skill from the PG to pull off (at least relative to other average PG in the league.) the difficulty is that A. the shooter has to hit the shot and B. even if they do it's usually a pretty blah play in terms of efficiency.
The Rockets almost completely abandon this sort of plays. pick and pop long 2 plays literally are banned in their play books, when they take long twos it's almost always Lin or Harden either in iso or coming out of pick . now personnel is a reason here , as they did do a little bit of that when they still have Patterson. but even then it's not a common play at all but a "hey we'll throw you one of this once every game just so you think we might not always go at the hoop" play.
Some assist are much harder than others, taking it up the court , slow passing to a shooter who hits a very long 3 vs driving past your men, draw a double team then stringing it for a wide open dunk both count as 1 assist but it's obvious which one is harder and more valuable, since almost anyone in the NBA can do the former.
Just think about this, in the entire career of Rajon Rondo he has been part of a top 5 offense once, and every other year his team was either a average or horrible offense. this was while playing most of his career with multiple hall of fame players. It's hard to convince me that he is running a good offense when faced with this fact. I use to debate if this was a Doc Rivers thing or on Rajon Rondo, but this year the Clippers had the best offense in the league, so tell me what changed for the same coach.
ASSIST is a mean to the end, the end is the important thing here, which is to have a good offense. the Rockets were 4th and 6th in terms of offensive efficiency in the last 2 years and 2nd in points per game both years, meanwhile, the Boston Celtics in the last 8 season's offensive efficiency (from this year back) were 24th / 24th / 27th / 18th / 15th / 6th / 10th / 28th . so they have 1 good year that was about the same as Rockets last year, and meh to horrible the rest of the way, how can you make an argument that Rondo's a good PG in the face of all this? if we cover up the name then surely you'll say he's one of the worst PG to still hold a job. let alone getting paid over 10 million.
Thanks for the honesty.MorbidHEAT wrote:My dislike for Lin started during Linsanity. It was absurd. It's probably irrational dislike at this point, but man he gets on my nerves. He's been tearing us up though.
ChokeFasncists wrote:The problem was that the hall of famers were old after a while. So they were 10th for the first year, 6th in the second year, they were still pretty good, but the decline set in the third year when they were 15th. Doc Rivers (and Thibs) probably had something to do with it but it's secondary. The Clips do have CP3 and a young Blake. CP3 is definitely a better shooter and probably a better passer but Rondo makes it up by being real tough, defensively and getting to loose balls.
He has his issues of course but it's too much to call him one of the worst starting PGs. He needs suitable players around him but I don't think he's overrated. I don't think he would fit here anyways, especially if his jumper isn't good yet. His D is great there should be no doubt. Think about it, without the not 3, not 4s etc, they would be in the finals even just two years ago with Rondo as the main guy. It was too bad Doc Rivers wasn't good enough with Thibs gone (IMO he's a good for RS but not so much in the PO) and Ainge not getting good role player replacements for Brown and Posey. It'd be interesting to see what he can do with good health, a better jumper and suitable players surrounding him. He's just coming into his prime right now.
RollingWave wrote:There is the slight problem that these old HOFer, went to the Nets and put up a totally average offense another year older after getting off to a hilariously bad start. That seems to be a pretty strong argument to the contrary no?
I'm not saying he's the worst PG in the league (that would obviously be Raymond Felton.), I'm saying his perceived value by the Celtics, and most fans in the league, is significantly higher than what his results in recent years suggest it should be. There isn't a lot of good rationale suggesting that you should trade serious assets to get the privilege of paying him 10m or more
Thanks for the honesty.MorbidHEAT wrote:My dislike for Lin started during Linsanity. It was absurd. It's probably irrational dislike at this point, but man he gets on my nerves. He's been tearing us up though.
ChokeFasncists wrote:I'm not sure I understand what you mean. They do have another two max players tho.
Well, I'd agree that jury's still out on whether he's a great player; and you're right there's certain risk one takes trading for him. However, IMO he's one of the elite point guards in this league and is worth the max, especially if he gets his jumper going.
RollingWave wrote:ChokeFasncists wrote:I'm not sure I understand what you mean. They do have another two max players tho.
Since when did max money player automatically max money player production? Deron had a pretty terrible year in general, and Joe Johnson is 32 and has been routinely called one of the worst max contract of all time for a reason. (mainly that people see him score a lot of total points and ignore that his efficiency is horrific. noting that this year, he actually had one of his rare more efficient years because he was hiting 3s at 40%, and yet his true shooting % was lower than Jeremy Lin. while per minute scoring is only a bit higher. i.e per 36 min he takes 3 more shots and on average score 1 more bucket. )
There are players that can't find a jumper, and there are guys that simply can't shoot, a guy who's a career 62% FT shooter is dangerously close to the later, You might want to bring up Jason Kidd as an example of a guard that found his stroke later in his career, but Kidd's worst FT% year is still quite a bit better than Rondo's BEST FT% year.
meanwhile, next year is the last year of Rondo's contract, so you are going to make a decision here. and you only have one year to do it. because he ain't reupping for anything less than 4 year, and probably max level money.
I think Rondo is basically like a lesser version of Westbrook, there's no doubt he's talented, but there is doubt if that talent actually translate into helping team win basketball games on a consistent basis.
But either way, I see little chance for him on the Rox anyway, Ainge would only trade him for a king's ransom and Morey's not going to give that sort or package for him (or even capable of doing it.). With all the talk, the by far most likely outcome for the Rox is to do very little this summer, mayyyybe a Asik for Millsap trade would be the only somehow plausible big name move that could occur.
They will sign a MLE guy, so we're better off realistically talking on who would be most ideal in that 5-7m per year range.
Thanks for the honesty.MorbidHEAT wrote:My dislike for Lin started during Linsanity. It was absurd. It's probably irrational dislike at this point, but man he gets on my nerves. He's been tearing us up though.